tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post1631829430677817921..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: Coercive ParentingSimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-35638459481091268552011-03-13T17:35:48.086-07:002011-03-13T17:35:48.086-07:00"Tomorrow I shall discuss 'cooperative pa..."Tomorrow I shall discuss 'cooperative parenting', which I see as the antithesis of both authoritarian parenting and letting a child dictate the course of her own life freely."<br /><br />Funnily enough, that's how TCS see their theory of non-coercive parenting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-38717573136438564962011-03-13T01:39:58.773-08:002011-03-13T01:39:58.773-08:00"It's weird how so many comments on this ..."It's weird how so many comments on this post have been about TCS."<br /><br />In response to a post about coercive/non-coercive parenting and HE? Why is that weird?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-17721968268382065572011-03-12T05:42:20.933-08:002011-03-12T05:42:20.933-08:00No TCS accepts that parents are fallible that they...No TCS accepts that parents are fallible that they will be frightening but that this is an error.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-78450047212651740962011-03-12T01:52:20.447-08:002011-03-12T01:52:20.447-08:00'Anonymous said...
It's weird how so many...'Anonymous said... <br />It's weird how so many comments on this post have been about TCS.'<br /><br />TCS is a very simple and easy to understand concept. It appeals to those who like a black and white universe where parents are either frightening or gentle. There is no room in such a world-view for the kind but firm parents or those who are authorititive without being overbearing. I can see the attraction, but it does not really deal with the real world or real parents.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-63680373067849836922011-03-11T23:16:17.111-08:002011-03-11T23:16:17.111-08:00It's weird how so many comments on this post h...It's weird how so many comments on this post have been about TCS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-34785132596253152342011-03-11T12:40:26.086-08:002011-03-11T12:40:26.086-08:00http://childrenarepeople.blogspot.com/2009/05/tryi...http://childrenarepeople.blogspot.com/2009/05/trying-to-explain-tcs-in-public.html<br /><br />This old post might help with your post for tomorrow.<br /><br />Seeking common preferences is closely related to co-operation though we may have subtly different definitions for these terms. <br /><br />The children in our house are raised by parents influenced by TCS philosophy, they, the children, are pretty intolerant of other children who are unruly and indisciplined. They are learning self discipline, they take our advice most of the time. They don't want to hang out with coercive wild children.<br /><br />I think there are 2 ways to have gentle "well behaved" children,<br /><br />1. Frighten or embarrass them into it.<br />2. Behave in a gentle well behaved way and show them that that's a good way to be.<br /><br />If you are not effective enough at the first then give up and do the second.<br />If you are good at the first read this book.<br /><br />http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=2<br />and this one<br />http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winning-Parent-Child-Parenting-Everybody/dp/0954943309Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-58975515982136711632011-03-11T09:03:38.809-08:002011-03-11T09:03:38.809-08:00Anon says-I see the extreme opposite where I live....Anon says-I see the extreme opposite where I live. Children walking around till late at night, smoking cannabis etc with no one pulling them aside. Some of these children could do with a little 'coercion.'<br /><br />yes quite agree with you! and most of these kids go to schools! where Webb wanted to send home educated children who where not doing home education the right way!<br /><br />another anon says-I've just seen the news about Japan, not had the TV on yet so a bit behind the times. Makes our concerns about coercing or not coercing pale into insignificance, doesn't it? <br /><br />Not for those that are committed to geting children back into a state school like Webb/daughter/Ed balls M.P/ crazy old Badman.These types are 100% committed to finding abuse and home education being done the wrong way. their wont let the terrible earthquake in Japan get in their way!Peter and Carolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834275662603833577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-88125789301549115722011-03-11T06:19:04.153-08:002011-03-11T06:19:04.153-08:00I've just seen the news about Japan, not had t...I've just seen the news about Japan, not had the TV on yet so a bit behind the times. Makes our concerns about coercing or not coercing pale into insignificance, doesn't it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-69852505857215344242011-03-11T05:54:32.888-08:002011-03-11T05:54:32.888-08:00"'He knows the deal and it's his choi..."'He knows the deal and it's his choice if he does the things we ask or not.'<br /><br />This is precisely what I mean by cooperative parenting."<br /><br />Well, it's a description of the child cooperating with the parent and suffering the consequences if they don't, certainly. TCS just makes cooperation more of a two way street - trying to help each other get what we want out of a situation through problem solving rather than just the parent telling the child to cooperate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-47298160940533801492011-03-11T03:15:25.095-08:002011-03-11T03:15:25.095-08:00I think it's more likely that these extremes o...I think it's more likely that these extremes of bad behaviour are the result of harsh, inconsistent coercion with no reference to the morality of situations, possibly aimed at giving the parents a quite life. The coercion probably also included abandonment and/or neglect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-84746200942333963002011-03-11T03:12:18.250-08:002011-03-11T03:12:18.250-08:00"I wasn't really thinking about TCS here...."I wasn't really thinking about TCS here. I was responding to a post by somebody who was describing her own neighbourhood."<br /><br />Yes, I realised that, but it's often suggested that this sort of behaviour will be the outcome of TCS - that coercion is the only way to avoid it. The writer of the comment you responded to contrasted these children with her family, suggesting that the behaviour was result of a lack of coercion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-9011279220870515842011-03-11T02:59:24.842-08:002011-03-11T02:59:24.842-08:00'"Being allowed to do what your please as...'"Being allowed to do what your please as a child can certainly become a bad habit and lead to an aimless and undisciplined lifestyle with no consideration for others."<br /><br />Good thing that this isn't what TCS is about then.'<br /><br />I wasn't really thinking about TCS here. I was responding to a post by somebody who was describing her own neighbourhood.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-34398600282051334412011-03-11T02:59:07.668-08:002011-03-11T02:59:07.668-08:00This TCS quote seems relevant to the, 'aimless...This TCS quote seems relevant to the, 'aimless and undisciplined lifestyle', issue:<br /><br /><i>"Another possible misinterpretation of TCS is the idea that coercion is always wrong – that if one child is attacking another with a cricket bat, it is wrong to intervene. On the contrary, it is vital to protect the victim, and that might well involve stopping the attacking child against his or her will, i.e., coercively. That there would have been a way to avoid this in the first place is, at such a moment, irrelevant for all practical purposes. But in the bigger picture, it is reassuring: if the good things in life could be obtained by mechanically following a rule, then only a wicked and unworthy parent would ever fail to find a common preference with their beloved child. But TCS is not a rule. When we say that it is possible and desirable to raise children without intentionally coercing them, we don't mean that if everything goes wrong sometimes, you must be an evil shit unworthy of life, what we mean is: hey, there's hope – things need not be like this for ever!"</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-80583292968386692672011-03-11T02:58:24.731-08:002011-03-11T02:58:24.731-08:00'Can you not have conversations with your daug...'Can you not have conversations with your daughter about things like this without causing this reaction? '<br /><br />Of course, but seventeen year-old are famously mercurial and prone to 'going off at the deep end'. It would be like playing Russian Roulette; it might be OK, but then again, it might not. Perhaps others have not found this with seventeen year-olds and if so, I am very happy for them. These are simply my own expreinces of this age group, both now and when I was myself seventeen.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-83640862399927028432011-03-11T02:54:38.827-08:002011-03-11T02:54:38.827-08:00"Being allowed to do what your please as a ch..."Being allowed to do what your please as a child can certainly become a bad habit and lead to an aimless and undisciplined lifestyle with no consideration for others."<br /><br />Good thing that this isn't what TCS is about then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-63216220146338313452011-03-11T02:53:33.603-08:002011-03-11T02:53:33.603-08:00Simon wrote,
"Except that on the TCS site, an...Simon wrote,<br />"Except that on the TCS site, an example given is of a child refusing to wear a seatbelt. ultimately, this should apparently be accepted as the child's choice. I would call that riding roughshod over me if My child behaved in this way."<br /><br />Then you would probably have arrived at a different solution to the parent in that example. It sounds like an example of a failure to find a common preference - this happens, and in some cases the failure would involve coercion of the child and in others the parent. None of us are perfect and we shouldn't beat ourselves up over it, just try to learn from the situation and do better next time, I'm sure this is true for all parenting styles.<br /><br />Simon wrote,<br />"The reality is, that if I suggested to my daughter that instead of studying politics, she might consider law, for example, this would probably create a desire in her not to touch law with a bargepole."<br /><br />Can you not have conversations with your daughter about things like this without causing this reaction? Beginning a conversation with something like, 'have you ever considered studying law?', and then listening to and discussing her reasons for not choosing that direction or maybe getting into a discussion about the pros and cons if it's not something she's considered doesn't sound like a conversation that would cause someone to avoid considering the law at all costs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-1112973819490017032011-03-11T02:45:23.470-08:002011-03-11T02:45:23.470-08:00'Your own personal findings may be coloured by...'Your own personal findings may be coloured by a factor you may not have taken into account.'<br /><br />This is no doubt quite true. I have yet to meet the parent who is able to be objective and wholly rational about his or her experiences of raising a family!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-30971244084119799352011-03-11T02:43:52.995-08:002011-03-11T02:43:52.995-08:00'Do you have any sons, Simon?'
By God'...'Do you have any sons, Simon?'<br /><br />By God's great mercy, I do not. I have no idea how I would have been as a father in that case; not a very good one I suspect. I think that the father/daughter relationship was probably integral to out home edcuation. However, I am sure that my wife would have been able to cope with a boy. Truth to tell, the very idea of rasing a son gives me the horrors!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-86471262453752960902011-03-11T02:40:58.681-08:002011-03-11T02:40:58.681-08:00'I see the extreme opposite where I live. Chil...'I see the extreme opposite where I live. Children walking around till late at night, smoking cannabis etc with no one pulling them aside. Some of these children could do with a little 'coercion.''<br /><br />You have put your finger right on it here. Being allowed to do what your please as a child can certainly become a bad habit and lead to an aimless and undisciplined lifestyle with no consideration for others.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-21499448879865586162011-03-11T02:40:23.748-08:002011-03-11T02:40:23.748-08:00Simon said: The main problem about offering guidan...Simon said: The main problem about offering guidance to a teenager is that it is likely to prove counter-productive and it is for this reason that I am opposed to trying to force kids that age to do things by making them feel guilty and so on. If I thought it would work, there is no telling how I would feel about this. The reality is, that if I suggested to my daughter that instead of studying politics, she might consider law, for example, this would probably create a desire in her not to touch law with a bargepole. If I then tried to pressure her into the idea, her resistence would stiffen and we would be locked in a fruitless battle. And of course, she would not study law anyway, so all the unpleasantness would have been in vain. With teenagers, one must follow the scriptural injunction and be as cunning as a serpent and as gentle as a dove! <br /><br />I remember once my mother suggesting that I pop into college and study to become a legal secretary. Needeless to say, at the time, I thought the idea was rubbish and steered in completely the opposite direction. So yes, I understand what you are saying. <br />However, I do think there is a marked difference between girls and boys, and the reaction you are likely to get, when using methods of guidance.<br />Do you have any sons, Simon? <br /><br />And I agree that this may be a somewhat sweeping statement, and it is not meant to cause offense to anyone, but quite definitely there is a difference between how boys react to gentle pursuasion, and how girls react to it.<br /><br />Your own personal findings may be coloured by a factor you may not have taken into account.Lozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16092386208324357836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-16437475327604084522011-03-11T02:39:31.030-08:002011-03-11T02:39:31.030-08:00'I think you are misunderstanding non-coercive...'I think you are misunderstanding non-coercive parenting, at least the TCS type. It involves a lot of common preference finding and problem solving - the children are not supposed to ride roughshod over their parents. '<br /><br />Except that on the TCS site, an example given is of a child refusing to wear a seatbelt. ultimately, this should apparently be accepted as the child's choice. I would call that riding roughshod over me if My child behaved in this way.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-46899926479008827442011-03-11T02:37:47.015-08:002011-03-11T02:37:47.015-08:00'"This does not mean that I do not believ...'"This does not mean that I do not believe that firm boundaries are unnecessary for a teenage girl, just as they are for a toddler. It means that I have a different idea as to how they should be maintained."<br /><br />How do you maintain them? What does this look like in practice?'<br /><br />I shall be posting about this tomorrow.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-9867245996565888972011-03-11T02:37:07.803-08:002011-03-11T02:37:07.803-08:00' He knows the deal and it's his choice if...' He knows the deal and it's his choice if he does the things we ask or not.'<br /><br />This is precisely what I mean by cooperative parenting. In our family, we all have to do things we don't want to do. This might be cooking the dinner, cleaning the windows or studying maths. Anybody who opts out of their own duties cannot expect others to be keen on making their life easy.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-15053336288592634642011-03-11T02:13:33.887-08:002011-03-11T02:13:33.887-08:00No it didn't come out twice my computer messin...No it didn't come out twice my computer messing upAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-43801176205809701022011-03-11T02:12:56.988-08:002011-03-11T02:12:56.988-08:00I don't know why that came out twice apologies...I don't know why that came out twice apologiesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com