tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post219470284268865974..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: Attempting to limit the freedoms of home educatorsSimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-5349388792671716032010-10-18T05:59:11.278-07:002010-10-18T05:59:11.278-07:00"In all the references to 'home educators..."In all the references to 'home educators' which I have seen, the phrase is applied to parents. Perhaps we could be given a few examples of its being applied to children?"<br /><br />I'm just judging by the way I and my friends use the term. I think it's one of those terms where context changes meaning. The form of education chosen by a family must make a difference too. When I made the comment you quote above I suppose I meant all home educators, even those who give their children no control over their education. However, when I talk about my own family and other autonomously educating families I must, by default, include the children in that term as they are in control of their own education. <br /><br />So when I say you are attempting to limit the freedoms of home educators, I suppose I primarily mean the freedoms of autonomous home educators and, because they are in control, this must include children's freedoms. You are probably not attempting to limit the freedom of completely parent-led educators as their form of education would not be harmed or prevented by forward planning so maybe I should not have made the distinction in the comment you quote. <br /><br />The point I've been trying to make is that you are attempting to limit my children's freedom to control their education and it would also prevent me from fulfilling my duty to provide them with a suitable education.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-66536384745545173392010-10-18T05:40:56.220-07:002010-10-18T05:40:56.220-07:00I don't intend to get caught up in one of thos...I don't intend to get caught up in one of those mad, Alice in Wonderland type exchanges when people use words and expressions in a way quite contrary to their comman usage. I shall limit myself to two examples. Ross Mountney, an autonomous educator who wrote 'Laerning without school' and is active in a home educating magazine, says in her book, page 45;<br /><br />'Home educators are exercising a choice that is open to all parents' <br /><br />It is plain that she regards home educators as being the adults. Jane Lowe of HEAS says in 'The Home Education Handbook', page 22;<br /><br />'The home educator has a significant advantage over school'<br /><br />In all the references to 'home educators' which I have seen, the phrase is applied to parents. Perhaps we could be given a few examples of its being applied to children?Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-43726935232732782722010-10-18T05:22:19.010-07:002010-10-18T05:22:19.010-07:00Certainly, in the context used yesterday, the expr...Certainly, in the context used yesterday, the expression 'home educaotrs' was meant to refer to parents. the person commenting said;<br /><br />'It's usually just a shorthand expression of exasperation and a wish for you to go away and stop interfering in other people's freedoms to educate in the most suitable way for their child (incidentally a requirement in law). The other people you mention are not attempting to limit the freedoms of current and future home educators'<br /><br />As you will see, a contrast is being drawn between those edcuating and the the child who is being educated. It was in this context, the usually accepted one, that I use the term 'home educator in this post.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-129530397578017292010-10-18T05:16:57.997-07:002010-10-18T05:16:57.997-07:00'Do you not include 'home educated childre...'Do you not include 'home educated children' within the group 'home educators'?'<br /><br />I have in the past seen the expression 'home educators' used to refer to the parents and 'home educated' used to apply to the children. Can any of those commenting direct us to examples of the use of the term 'home educators' to mean children? Whenever one sees the phrase on the HE lists, it invariably refers to parents rather than children.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-16515158266831314302010-10-18T05:09:10.303-07:002010-10-18T05:09:10.303-07:00I'm re-using a comment here too as it seems re...I'm re-using a comment here too as it seems relevant. A reply to your suggestion that the term 'home educators' does not include children:<br /><br />I have always included children within the term home educators! We go to home educator camps, not home educators and their children camps, we go to home educator's meetings where the most important individuals are the children, when we meet or talk about fellow home educators or home educators meetings within our family we mean the whole of the other family, not just the parents (fancy going to play with any home educators tomorrow?). When we discuss 'home educators' day to day we probably mean the children more than the adults. I've no idea where you strange idea that only parents can be home educators stems from but it certainly doesn't chime with my experiences with 100s of home educators.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-60042709162079519952010-10-18T05:00:06.304-07:002010-10-18T05:00:06.304-07:00Do you not include 'home educated children'...Do you not include 'home educated children' within the group 'home educators'? When I say "'You are attempting to limit the freedoms of home educators", I mean you are attempting to limit the freedom for our family, both adults and children, to find and use the most suitable form of education for our children. We have found that autonomous education is the best method for finding and providing a suitable education for our children. Your preference for inspections and plans for the next year would limit our ability to provide this education to our children. We would not be free to provide them with an education that is suitable for their age, ability and aptitudes. <br /><br />Currently parents are responsible for providing a suitable education. If LAs gain the power to prevent the provision of a suitable education they lay themselves open to being sued by children like mine when they grow up and recognise that their education became unsuitable once the LA became involved. Until now attempts to sue LAs for lack of provision of a suitable education have failed (even for children in school) because the onus is on parents to provide it. But if LAs gain positive powers (as opposed to the current negative power to intervene if a suitable education is not provided) to control the form of education children receive, they must also share the blame when it goes wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-58412509767621945192010-10-18T01:09:19.716-07:002010-10-18T01:09:19.716-07:00There isn't any 'should' about it. It...There isn't any 'should' about it. It might be highly desirable that children are able to read before starting secondary school, and indeed learning to read was of course one of the reasons the education system was set up in the first place. But plenty of children have not been able to read before secondary school age and debate has raged as to why this is the case since long before secondary schools came into being. <br /><br />That's the whole point of a parent being given a duty to cause a child to have a 'suitable' education; one suitable to the individual child, not one where the non-average child has to accept that a unsuitable education is just in the nature of the Universe.suzygnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-65407787327943426372010-10-18T00:54:59.313-07:002010-10-18T00:54:59.313-07:00'If the idea that children 'should' ha...'If the idea that children 'should' have developed certain skills by certain ages isn't derived from the NC, what is it derived from? Certainly not from the experience of teachers during the past 150 years.'<br /><br />I think that the idea that children should be able to read before starting secondary school predates the introduction of the National Curriculum!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-70410152133505723362010-10-18T00:48:11.476-07:002010-10-18T00:48:11.476-07:00"It is a two way system. Shopkeepers are the ..."It is a two way system. Shopkeepers are the electorate and therefore hold the council to account. The council also hold them to account for the conditions in their shops. this is quite common where relations with the Local Authority are concerned."<br /><br />That's because shopkeepers are providing a service for which they charge members of the public. If a parent were teaching other people's children in exchange for payment, their service would and should be inspected.<br /><br />"that they provide a broad, rich curriculum, and expressed the opinion, shared by GB, that children 'should' have developed certain skills by certain ages.'<br /><br />Nothing to do with the National Curriculum."<br /><br />I've heard a number of people working for LAs sound shocked at the discovery that home educated children don't have to follow the NC. If the idea that children 'should' have developed certain skills by certain ages isn't derived from the NC, what is it derived from? Certainly not from the experience of teachers during the past 150 years.suzygnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-84139070189292103542010-10-18T00:35:18.988-07:002010-10-18T00:35:18.988-07:00'Who are local authorities accountable to in r...'Who are local authorities accountable to in respect of service provision, if not to the electorate?'<br /><br />It is a two way system. Shopkeepers are the electorate and therefore hold the council to account. The council also hold them to account for the conditions in their shops. this is quite common where relations with the Local Authority are concerned.<br /><br /> '<br />that they provide a broad, rich curriculum, and expressed the opinion, shared by GB, that children 'should' have developed certain skills by certain ages.'<br /><br />Nothing to do with the National Curriculum.<br /><br /> 'You have clearly never had a conversation with a tax inspector about whether you are an employee or not, or how your income as an author can be spread. HMRC regulations are the product of a great deal of exercising of judgement on both sides over many years.'<br /><br />Indeed I have had such conversations. the duty has remained intact though. Nobody is suggesting preventing parents from exercising their duty to procide an education; simply putting forward new ways of ensuring that it is undertaken. I have certainly suggested schemes for paying my taxes which have not been accepted by the IR!<br /><br />'Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-65641122582717970112010-10-18T00:31:01.992-07:002010-10-18T00:31:01.992-07:00Let me re-phrase that: "A local authority of...Let me re-phrase that: "A local authority officer I once spoke to said the the committee who drew up the 1944 criteria for a suitable education had omitted the content of the curriculum from the Education Act because they had 'forgotten' to put it in. "suzygnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-76301516400774299172010-10-18T00:29:06.372-07:002010-10-18T00:29:06.372-07:00"'There was a distinct possibility that a..."'There was a distinct possibility that a parent not following the national curriculum would find themselves at odds with LA officers'<br /><br />I specifically asked Graham Badman about this idea and he seemed amazed. I have never heard the National Curriculum mentioned in connection with the CSF Bill or the Badman review. Where do you get this idea?"<br /><br />Because he recommended that the DCSF decide what constituted a 'suitable' education and because local authorities were asking for evidence that parents provided an education for a set number of hours a week, that they provide a broad, rich curriculum, and expressed the opinion, shared by GB, that children 'should' have developed certain skills by certain ages. <br /><br />"'it is important that people given a duty are also given scope to exercise their judgement in how they discharge that duty.'<br /><br />Extraordinary notion. My duty is to pay a certain percentage of my income to the Inland Revenue. I am given no scope to exercise my judgement in how I discharge this duty. I cannot really see why you think that special rules should apply to the legal duty to provide an education for a child."<br /><br />You have clearly never had a conversation with a tax inspector about whether you are an employee or not, or how your income as an author can be spread. HMRC regulations are the product of a great deal of exercising of judgement on both sides over many years.<br /><br />'Making parents accountable to local authorities is unconstitutional '<br /><br />Reference needed. <br /><br />What's actually needed is understanding. A local authority officer I once spoke to said the 1944 criteria for a suitable education had omitted the content of the curriculum from the Education Act because they had 'forgotten' to put it in. Presumably because they were too busy fighting the Jerries. Not because they felt it was up to the school/teacher/parent and nothing to with them. <br /><br />Who are local authorities accountable to in respect of service provision, if not to the electorate?suzygnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-76416926071477499982010-10-18T00:15:09.899-07:002010-10-18T00:15:09.899-07:00'There was a distinct possibility that a paren...'There was a distinct possibility that a parent not following the national curriculum would find themselves at odds with LA officers'<br /><br />I specifically asked Graham Badman about this idea and he seemed amazed. I have never heard the National Curriculum mentioned in connection with the CSF Bill or the Badman review. Where do you get this idea?<br /><br />'it is important that people given a duty are also given scope to exercise their judgement in how they discharge that duty.'<br /><br />Extraordinary notion. My duty is to pay a certain percentage of my income to the Inland Revenue. I am given no scope to exercise my judgement in how I discharge this duty. I cannot really see why you think that special rules should apply to the legal duty to provide an education for a child.<br /><br />'Making parents accountable to local authorities is unconstitutional '<br /><br />Reference needed.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-28834946698354933052010-10-18T00:07:51.766-07:002010-10-18T00:07:51.766-07:00The 'freedom' referred to by home educatin...The 'freedom' referred to by home educating parents was in relation to them causing their child to have a suitable education that differed from that advocated by the then DCSF. There was a distinct possibility that a parent not following the national curriculum would find themselves at odds with LA officers, for no good reason.<br /><br />With regard to parental rights, although I agree with you that parents do not have 'rights' in regard to education, it is important that people given a duty are also given scope to exercise their judgement in how they discharge that duty. <br /><br />Currently, in UK law, how children are educated at home is nothing to do with local authorities, unless it appears that a parent is not fulfilling their duty toward the child. Making parents accountable to local authorities is unconstitutional and legally anomalous, since local authorities are also accountable to parents for the quality of service they provide. This is why the criterion for LA involvement in private life has always been only if it appears that there has been a breach of the law by the individual concerned.suzygnoreply@blogger.com