tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post2729538611569456488..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: Are local authorities acting unlawfully when they monitor home education on a regular basis?Simon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-74914625974364999572013-02-21T00:41:37.305-08:002013-02-21T00:41:37.305-08:00Everyone loves what you guys are up too. This sort...Everyone loves what you guys are up too. This sort of clever <br />work and exposure! Keep up the good works guys I've incorporated you guys to blogroll.<br /><br />Look at my page :: <a href="http://www.viewsmania.com/youtube/fast-views" rel="nofollow">youtube view increaser free</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-24162787348060631582012-11-19T12:52:21.861-08:002012-11-19T12:52:21.861-08:00Hi, i think that i saw you visited my site so i ca...Hi, i think that i saw you visited my site so i came to <br />?return the favor?.I'm trying to find things to enhance my web site!I suppose its ok to use some of your ideas!!<br /><i>My web page</i> :: <b><a href="http://www.terkidiyar.com/index.php?do=/blog/5615/online-gambling-laws/" rel="nofollow">as explained here</a></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-57113305072963778632012-09-14T07:23:28.290-07:002012-09-14T07:23:28.290-07:00But it still doesn't answer the question I'...But it still doesn't answer the question I'm interested and have asked. Which section, of which law, are the two councils you contacted relying on when they say they have a duty to monitor? Or did you just take their word for it when they said that they exist?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-42924459093203350952012-09-14T04:00:27.725-07:002012-09-14T04:00:27.725-07:00Alison tells us:
'Oh, and for the record, my...Alison tells us:<br /><br /><br />'Oh, and for the record, my husband has nothing to do with my work! He's far too busy doing his own.....'<br /><br /><br />This is very puzzling. Alison works for a set-up called Sauer Consultancy, currently trading as SC Education. Look at this site:<br /><br />http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/ralph-sauer/14/149/8a7<br /><br />You will see that Alison’s husband Ralph is listed as being the managing director of the company for which Alison is working. Some connection then with her work, surely?Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-20376817050836670752012-09-14T00:58:14.752-07:002012-09-14T00:58:14.752-07:00'You wrote this just after the Donaldson quote...'You wrote this just after the Donaldson quote. Just to be clear, this case says nothing about monitoring and in fact Donaldson's comment at the end of his judgement suggests opposition to monitoring:'<br /><br />Hinges around the meaning of 'at short intervals' Few people would regard an annual enquiry as taking place at 'short intervals'.<br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-16492270251313350702012-09-14T00:56:06.176-07:002012-09-14T00:56:06.176-07:00''It turns children on'
Tell me you...''It turns children on'<br />Tell me you're joking.......'<br /><br />Not at all! Just look at the website and you will see it there. <br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-45152110115520917972012-09-14T00:55:11.992-07:002012-09-14T00:55:11.992-07:00'So can we assume, Simon, that you just took t...'So can we assume, Simon, that you just took the LAs word for it? You didn't ask which law they are relying on to support the conclusion that they have a duty to monitor? Very trusting of you, if that is the case.'<br /><br />See my latest post for a discussion of this.<br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-44293356011938037222012-09-13T22:37:00.162-07:002012-09-13T22:37:00.162-07:00'It turns children on'
Tell me you're ...'It turns children on'<br />Tell me you're joking.......<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-76026313101437626962012-09-13T14:59:50.261-07:002012-09-13T14:59:50.261-07:00Simon said,
"She is attempting here to hunt w...Simon said,<br />"She is attempting here to hunt with the hounds and run with the fox; in other words to be both a home educator and also somebody telling local authority officers the best way to monitor home education."<br /><br />You wrote this just after the Donaldson quote. Just to be clear, this case says nothing about monitoring and in fact Donaldson's comment at the end of his judgement suggests opposition to monitoring:<br /><br /><i>"Finally, I should mention that Mr. Phillips expressed concern lest, if the Magistrate's view of the law was right, it would be open to an L.E.A. to persecute a parent by issuing a series of School Attendance Orders at short intervals, making complaints that the orders were not complied with and on each occasion requiring the parent to prove that he was discharging his section 36 duty. There is no evidence whatsoever that this has happened in this case or in any other case. But Mr. Phillips need have no fear. Apart altogether from the power of the Magistrates Court to order that a particular School Attendance Order shall cease to be in force pursuant to section 37(6), the Divisional Court, in an appropriate case, has the necessary power and would have no hesitation in restraining such conduct by an L.E.A. by means of judicial review.</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-35980735297372703612012-09-13T14:50:24.861-07:002012-09-13T14:50:24.861-07:00Anonymous said,
"You said that you contacted ...Anonymous said,<br />"You said that you contacted particular authorities before writing this article and they claimed that they have a duty to monitor after consulting barristers. Which laws specifically did these authorities quote when you contacted them, or did you just take their word for it? If they cited CME, which parts of CME in particular?"<br /><br />So can we assume, Simon, that you just took the LAs word for it? You didn't ask which law they are relying on to support the conclusion that they have a duty to monitor? Very trusting of you, if that is the case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-4135237384395860742012-09-13T14:38:18.693-07:002012-09-13T14:38:18.693-07:00Alison said,
"Ahh you are both confusing a ch...Alison said,<br />"Ahh you are both confusing a check to see if a child is being educated with a response to a concern"<br /><br />In what way did I confuse this issue? The case law established that if an LA asks a parent about HE, the parents would be best advised to offer more than the mere assertion that they were home educating. Yet you appeared to suggest that the LA should accept such an assertion when you said,<br /><br /><i>"Point 3 LAs if they are merely asking "how are you educating your child" and accepting the answer "through home education" would be sticking strictly to their remit."</i><br /><br />In the case in questions (Phillips v Brown) the LA became aware of a child who was not attending school and asked for details of his education provision. The parents believed that the LA should accept their assurance that they were educating their child according to age, ability, etc. otherwise than at school, but the LA wanted details of the educational programme. The defendant argued that an LA exceeds its powers if it asks parents to prove that they are discharging their duty to ensure that their children are properly educated, unless the LA has some reason to doubt that this is the case. The defendant lost the case.<br /><br />Do you count this as, 'a check to see if a child is being educated', or, 'a response to a concern'? Can you give an example of the other situation? How should each situation be treated by an LA in your view?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-17428046998704640372012-09-13T14:31:30.116-07:002012-09-13T14:31:30.116-07:00'Oh, and for the record, my husband has nothin...'Oh, and for the record, my husband has nothing to do with my work! He's far too busy doing his own.....'<br /><br />Companies House thinks otherwise... I observe that you seem a little reluctant either to confirm or deny that you have been telling local authority officers that the passage of time constitutes a change in circumstance which justifies further enquiries by the authority. Since this is the basis for demands for regular monitoring, this is important. All you need to say is, 'I have never told local authorities this'.<br /><br /><br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-22315709939875626622012-09-13T14:27:19.102-07:002012-09-13T14:27:19.102-07:00While Alison is here, it might be interesting to a...While Alison is here, it might be interesting to ask her about one or two of her past achievements . Here is a very strange document which she and her husband, produced:<br /><br />https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0aGVob21lb2ZlZHVjYXRpb258Z3g6M2QzODc2MDdhMjQzZWY5ZQ&pli=1<br /><br /><br />And here is a website which they set up so that they could put across Alison’s views on home education and make them see a little more objective than just a personal opinion;<br /><br /> https://sites.google.com/site/thehomeofeducation/educational<br /><br />You might not want to use one or two of the slogans suggested by Alison and her husband here. For instance, ‘Home Educate - It turns children on’ is probably one to avoid when people are fretting about the possible link between home education and the abuse of children!<br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-51751944707677371372012-09-13T14:27:15.517-07:002012-09-13T14:27:15.517-07:00Neither of those have anything to do with me. I th...Neither of those have anything to do with me. I think I may have disseminated the first one IIRC but I didn't write it! Clearly you are not paying your spies enough biscuits.<br /><br />The website is not mine.<br /><br />Oh, and for the record, my husband has nothing to do with my work! He's far too busy doing his own.....<br /><br />Alison Sauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750590554400582933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-45785440723686547982012-09-13T13:50:04.734-07:002012-09-13T13:50:04.734-07:00'Gosh I never noticed you at one of my courses...'Gosh I never noticed you at one of my courses Simon. Which one did you attend? I am surprised that you know what is in them! Or are you <br />listening to rumour again? Routine annual monitoring indeed...that phrase never passes my lips except to denounce it as an outmoded and unneeded activity.'<br /><br />It is quite true that you have not said that routine annual monitoring is a good idea. It is also true that you have told local authority officers that the passage of time is a change in circumstance which is sufficient to justify new enquiries. They have then seized on this and later distorted it. Before we go any further with this, could you simply tell us whether or not you agree that you have said this in the course of training local authorities? In other words, do you recall telling local authority officers working with electively home educated children that the passage of time is a change in circumstance? <br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-42430784538341526592012-09-13T13:22:57.587-07:002012-09-13T13:22:57.587-07:00Ahh you are both confusing a check to see if a chi...Ahh you are both confusing a check to see if a child is being educated with a response to a concern.....but as my lawyer said to me only this evening it is so difficult to explain the nuances..and text is not a good medium for that so I apologise if I was unclear.<br /><br />Gosh I never noticed you at one of my courses Simon. Which one did you attend? I am surprised that you know what is in them! Or are you <br />listening to rumour again? Routine annual monitoring indeed...that phrase never passes my lips except to denounce it as an outmoded and unneeded activity. <br /><br />In Scotland Annual enquiries are in Statutory guidance however I think you will find. Maybe you came to a Scottish Course and are a little confused?<br /><br />Pragmatically, over time it would be great to see Authorities move from rigid annual or even quarterly monitoring in some cases to a more evidence based, flexible and respectful/supportive position. We are, however, a long way from that in the mindset of most LAs.<br /><br />Finally let us remember where passage of time concept actually comes from shall we ??? Ian Dowty quite some years ago. Let us also remember that interpretation of law changes over time and I have not heard Ian speak of this for some years...... Alison Sauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750590554400582933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-62462444668956113442012-09-13T12:26:03.773-07:002012-09-13T12:26:03.773-07:00Alison claims that this is the legal situation wit...Alison claims that this is the legal situation with enquiries by the local authority when they come across a child being educated at home:<br /><br />' LAs if they are merely asking "how are you educating your child" and accepting the answer "through home education" would be sticking strictly to their remit.'<br /><br />This is quite untrue, as somebody pointed out above. The case law actually is that, ' If parents give no information or adopt the course .......... of merely stating that they are discharging their duty without giving any details of how they are doing so, the LEA will have to consider and decide whether it ‘appears’ to it that the parents are in breach of s 36. (now s7 of the 1996 Education Act.) In this context there is no reason why it should necessarily accept the parents' view -- opinions differ on what has to be done in discharge of the duty -- and if the parents refuse to answer, it could very easily conclude that prima facie the parents were in breach of their duty."'<br /><br />In other words, the duty of the local authority goes beyond simply getting an assurance from the parent that the child is being educated at home. In fact, Alison knows this perfectly well and trains local authorities on this very point. She is attempting here to hunt with the hounds and run with the fox; in other words to be both a home educator and also somebody telling local authority officers the best way to monitor home education. She seems, at least when talking to some LAs, to be in favour of regular, routine monitoring and tells local authorities that this is fine, because the passing of time means that the circumstances have changed with regard to the education which a child should be receiving. This is music to the ears of many local authorities, who take this to mean that they are quite justified in coming back annually for new information. Where Alison makes her great mistake is in thinking that this sort of thing will not leak out and become generally known! <br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-79350680015225146512012-09-13T11:47:31.398-07:002012-09-13T11:47:31.398-07:00Alison said,
"Point 3 LAs if they are merely ...Alison said,<br />"Point 3 LAs if they are merely asking "how are you educating your child" and accepting the answer "through home education" would be sticking strictly to their remit."<br /><br />But case law says otherwise. Lord Donaldson said the following with regard to an LA's actions when a home educating family is brought to their attention,<br /><br /><i>"What should it do? I do not accept that it should do nothing. This would rightly be criticised as an attempt to because like an ostrich -- to put its head in the sand in order that it should not learn of anything which might place upon it the burden of discharging its duty to consider making and, in appropriate cases, to make School Attendance Orders. The most obvious step to take is to ask the parents for information. Of course such a request is not the same as a notice under s 37 (1) of the Education Act 1944 (now s 437 (1) of the 1996 Education Act) and the parents will be under no duty to comply. However it would be sensible for them to do so. If parents give no information or adopt the course .......... of merely stating that they are discharging their duty without giving any details of how they are doing so, the LEA will have to consider and decide whether it ‘appears’ to it that the parents are in breach of s 36. (now s7 of the 1996 Education Act.) In this context there is no reason why it should necessarily accept the parents' view -- opinions differ on what has to be done in discharge of the duty -- and if the parents refuse to answer, it could very easily conclude that prima facie the parents were in breach of their duty."</i><br /><br />See, it's not just home educators who like to throw in the odd latin phrase here and there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-64511009833539011382012-09-13T11:11:39.022-07:002012-09-13T11:11:39.022-07:00'Point 1 there is a difference between a SERVI...'Point 1 there is a difference between a SERVICE like emptying a bin (where a minimum level is required) and a STATUTORY INTERVENTION like picking up the pieces when a suitable ed is not taking place. In the second monitoring is not required but a response to an allegation of neglect of duty is.'<br /><br />Nobody is talking about statutory intervention and I am at a loss to know where you have got this idea from. The process of dealing with a case where a child has been shown not to be receiving a suitable education is quite different from checking that such a state of affairs does not exist.<br /><br />'In my experience too, lawyers retained and employed by LAs will know a lot about education law pertaining to school etc but next to nothing about EHE.'<br /><br />This is true, which is why I explained above that counsel's opinion is sometimes sought on this matter because it is not the sort of thing that solicitors employed by a local authority are likely to know much about.<br /><br />'Point 3 LAs if they are merely asking "how are you educating your child" and accepting the answer "through home education" would be sticking strictly to their remit. However they are attempting to assess "suitability" usually which is a qualitative assessment.'<br /><br />Alison, I honestly wonder how you have the cheek to write this! You have been involved with training local authorities and I have seen material from such sessions in which you advise that the passage of time is effectively a change of circumstance and that they can come back after a year or two and request further information, simply because the child is now older. You are, in effect, telling them that regular checks are quite OK. Please make this clear to readers.<br /><br />Gall 9/10<br />Honesty 0/10<br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-49300996584134156822012-09-13T10:50:12.227-07:002012-09-13T10:50:12.227-07:00You said that you contacted particular authorities...You said that you contacted particular authorities before writing this article and they claimed that they have a duty to monitor after consulting barristers. Which laws specifically did these authorities quote when you contacted them, or did you just take their word for it? If they cited CME, which parts of CME in particular?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-70077433910823223922012-09-13T10:49:10.238-07:002012-09-13T10:49:10.238-07:00Simon wrote,
"Truly weird comment! Saying to ...Simon wrote,<br />"Truly weird comment! Saying to somebody, 'I strongly suspect that you have never worked for a local authority' is a way of explaining that you do not think that the person is familiar with the procedures followed there; in other words, that she does not know anything about it."<br /><br />That makes no sense either. It's entirely possible to have sufficient contact with a local authority to understand how they operate were without actually working for them! Anonymous stated that they have dealt with many local authorities over legal issues; your suggestion that they have no idea how local authorities deal with legal issues disputes this claim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-37402600794614673742012-09-13T10:46:07.330-07:002012-09-13T10:46:07.330-07:00Point 1 there is a difference between a SERVICE li...Point 1 there is a difference between a SERVICE like emptying a bin (where a minimum level is required) and a STATUTORY INTERVENTION like picking up the pieces when a suitable ed is not taking place. In the second monitoring is not required but a response to an allegation of neglect of duty is. So in the first you could exceed minimum expectations (and after all if you only wanted your bin picking up once a fortnight you would only put it out once a fortnight so the extra service would be opt in, not compulsory) and in the second you would be causing undue interference (and by claiming it is a statutory duty you make it appear compulsory).<br /> <br />Point 2. In my experience too, lawyers retained and employed by LAs will know a lot about education law pertaining to school etc but next to nothing about EHE. In fact we have even known the DfE lawyers to get it wrong, and not infrequently. I cite the case this year of the Directgov site which, until it was pointed out to them was utter nonsense, maintained that Authorities have a duty to ensure that a suitable education is taking place (with EHE children). Sadly by then many LAs had copied this phrase into their web pages and policies and even Nick Gibb was using it in letters....In fact it is STILL incorrect because it states "Local authorities can make informal enquiries of parents who are educating their children at home to establish that a suitable education is being provided". Whereas they are looking, in so-called "informal equiries" for the appearance that a suitable education is NOT being provided, an important distinction in law.<br /> <br />Point 3 LAs if they are merely asking "how are you educating your child" and accepting the answer "through home education" would be sticking strictly to their remit. However they are attempting to assess "suitability" usually which is a qualitative assessment.<br /><br />6/10 for effort. 0/10 for accuracy. Could try harder Simon......Alison Sauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750590554400582933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-72390458128086338902012-09-13T10:21:54.850-07:002012-09-13T10:21:54.850-07:00'You're getting muddled again, Simon. Anon...'You're getting muddled again, Simon. Anonymous says they have dealt with many LAs, nor worked for one. Local Authorities touch so many areas of life there must be very few people who have not dealt with them in various ways over the years. I'm not sure why you would suspect them of lying?'<br /><br />Truly weird comment! Saying to somebody, 'I strongly suspect that you have never worked for a local authority' is a way of explaining that you do not think that the person is familiar with the procedures followed there; in other words, that she does not know anything about it. I might similarly say to somebody, 'It's clear that you have not worked in a school', if the subject of classroom practice were to arise and the individual did not seem to understand something about it. How this can be interpreted as an accusation of lying against anybody is a complete mystery to me. It honestly suggests that some of the people commenting here are unfamiliar with either idiomatic English or the way that normal people debate things.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-9940314126313647492012-09-13T09:56:33.315-07:002012-09-13T09:56:33.315-07:00Just tell you tick boxing LA when they write to y...Just tell you tick boxing LA when they write to you no thanks to a home visit or meeting or monitoring if you can put down in writing what it is you want to know about child education i decide if i need to reply many thanks for your interest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-11078129296289197382012-09-13T09:38:00.945-07:002012-09-13T09:38:00.945-07:00You're getting muddled again, Simon. Anonymous...You're getting muddled again, Simon. Anonymous says they have dealt with many LAs, nor worked for one. Local Authorities touch so many areas of life there must be very few people who have not dealt with them in various ways over the years. I'm not sure why you would suspect them of lying?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com