tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post2817774668303782542..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: Autonomous education; a case studySimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-19046467407314381732012-06-29T06:22:46.399-07:002012-06-29T06:22:46.399-07:00Most home educators that adopt an autonomous style...Most home educators that adopt an autonomous style of learning do not think that you just leave your kids to it. That’s not what autonomous means - it means self directed or self regulated with the adults role being to facilitate the learning. eg http://www.unschoolcalling.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/automous-self-regulated-learning-how.html and http://www.unschoolcalling.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/example-of-automous-self-directed.htmlGel Homewoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14910339462342200177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-287515032989348722010-10-06T15:39:56.301-07:002010-10-06T15:39:56.301-07:00"This is news to me! I sent a submission to t..."This is news to me! I sent a submission to the select committee, but that was all."<br /><br />Didn't you contribute to the Badman review in writing and in person? And what about the consultation on the proposed changes? Didn't you send a response to that? Both of these were indirect submissions to MPs as both were commissioned by them and the results read by MPs.<br /><br />"I am in favour of home educators registering with their local authority. Many do this already and still manage to continue providing an education."<br /><br />Many AE are known to their LA and manage to educate autonomously without any problems under the current system (myself included, I choose to have visits). However, AE would not be have been possible under the system you support.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-87392795026502492812010-10-06T14:10:07.076-07:002010-10-06T14:10:07.076-07:00Why? If the education is suitable, it's entire...Why? If the education is suitable, it's entirely possible that this is the level the child would attain whoever provided the education and whatever advice was given. Changing the education provision may even reduce their future attainment. The point is, it's the education provision that should be evaluated, not the child's attainment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-57919137954565023452010-10-06T13:12:01.992-07:002010-10-06T13:12:01.992-07:00'and have written repeatedly to MPs in support...'and have written repeatedly to MPs in support of those measures.'<br /><br />This is news to me! I sent a submission to the select committee, but that was all. Are you sure that you are not muddling me up with some of those people like Tania Berlow and the Staffords who made multiple submissions? I am in favour of home educators registering with their local authority. Many do this already and still manage to continue providing an education. <br /><br />' <br />If low attaining HE children should be sent to school'<br /><br />Why on earth should they be? It would make more sense for the parents of such children to be helped to improve their education, rather than send them to school. I am not a great fan of schools.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-78274262030077453762010-10-06T11:47:43.925-07:002010-10-06T11:47:43.925-07:00When you say that something is causing incalculabl...When you say that something is causing incalculable damage to thousands of home educated children, it certainly gives the impression that you want to end it. You are also in favour of measures that would make AE impossible and have written repeatedly to MPs in support of those measures. <br /><br />Not sure where educational attainment fits in either, the law requires provision of a suitable education. A suitable education is provided in schools (according to LAs) and many children there do not attain very highly (and allowances must be made for individual differences). If low attaining HE children should be sent to school despite provision of a suitable education, maybe low attaining school children should have to HE?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-85168415823074844882010-10-06T10:20:49.354-07:002010-10-06T10:20:49.354-07:00'Mind you, only a minority go out of their way...'Mind you, only a minority go out of their way to campaign to end a particular method of education.'<br /><br />I must be getting old, because I certainly don't recollect doing this! Unless you are suggesting that anybody in favour of the registration of home educating parents and an eye being kept upon their children's educational attainment falls into this category.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-63107287782948016402010-10-06T08:30:28.448-07:002010-10-06T08:30:28.448-07:00Mind you, only a minority go out of their way to c...Mind you, only a minority go out of their way to campaign to end a particular method of education. Most people just push their own version as 'the best'. I think this is what makes you stand out amongst home educators as different. I don't know any others who argue for the ending of a particular style of HE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-12782472966977533382010-10-06T08:27:47.448-07:002010-10-06T08:27:47.448-07:00Of course, and I would support your right to do so...Of course, and I would support your right to do so, just as I have the right to disagree with you. But you cannot then honestly say that you are not telling other people how to educate their children. Many people tell others how they should educate their children. I'm not sure why you felt the need to deny it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-90233901489814892612010-10-06T05:22:39.284-07:002010-10-06T05:22:39.284-07:00'Saying in national papers and to MPs in vario...'Saying in national papers and to MPs in various consultations that AE is harmful and neglectful and should be stopped isn't telling me how to educate my child?'<br /><br />No, I'm afraid it's called democracy. I am free to express my view about education and other matters and you also have that freedom. Do you suppose it would be better if one of us lost this freedom? If so, which of us should it be?Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-21697236215869933512010-10-06T04:05:45.092-07:002010-10-06T04:05:45.092-07:00"I am not telling you at all how to educate y..."I am not telling you at all how to educate your child."<br /><br />Saying in national papers and to MPs in various consultations that AE is harmful and neglectful and should be stopped isn't telling me how to educate my child?<br /><br />Another anon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-37186476132208935322010-10-06T01:01:24.201-07:002010-10-06T01:01:24.201-07:00Simon wrote:
"Somebody was suggesting that au...Simon wrote:<br />"Somebody was suggesting that autonomous learning was more effective than that motivated by external factors and I was examining this proposition."<br /><br />Actually, I would put it to you that autonomous education draws a lot from external factors. A child sees something he wants and is prepared to put in the work to achieve it. If it's not something he wants then he doesn't bother. As a parent I see it as my job to provide lots of these external factors. Some are seized upon, others are tried and dropped and some are just ignored from the start.<br /><br />You seem to think that autonomously-educated children exist in a void where they have to discover and initiate everything. It's not like that at all.Dave Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-962189674750155412010-10-06T00:23:34.255-07:002010-10-06T00:23:34.255-07:00'and have intruded into the lives of others to...'and have intruded into the lives of others too much? '<br /><br />How on earth am I intruding intruding into the lives of others? I am not forcing anybody to come onto my blog and read my views. If people wish to read my opinions, they will come here eand do so; if they do not wish to then they will stay away. If I look at somebody's blog, I can hardly accuse them of intruding into my life!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-9250219596387993262010-10-05T23:31:11.641-07:002010-10-05T23:31:11.641-07:00'At what point have you taken your crusade too...'At what point have you taken your crusade too far, and have intruded into the lives of others too much? <br />I do not tell you how to educate your child Simon, so do not tell me how to educate mine.'<br /><br />Crusade? A little blog like this? Please keep a sense of perspective, Anonymous? I am not telling you at all how to educate your child. Somebody was suggesting that autonomous learning was more effective than that motivated by external factors and I was examining this proposition. Try not to take things so personally.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-14500621676943294382010-10-05T15:05:49.495-07:002010-10-05T15:05:49.495-07:00Simon says:
"Nobody in their senses would den...Simon says:<br />"Nobody in their senses would deny that autonomous learing is possible and takes place. The question to ask is is this as effective as more traditional educational methods and has it any disadvantages which conventional teaching lacks?"<br /><br />Is this the question to ask? Surely the question to ask is: if it is a method of learning which is possible and takes place, then what business is it of yours to tell other parents that they should not use it or governments to disregard it? At what point have you taken your crusade too far, and have intruded into the lives of others too much? <br />I do not tell you how to educate your child Simon, so do not tell me how to educate mine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-61498125097438928582010-10-05T14:56:39.394-07:002010-10-05T14:56:39.394-07:00"I consider learning something that someone w..."I consider learning something that someone with power over you (like a parent or teacher) decides you must learn."<br /><br />Didn't finish that sentence:<br /><br />I consider learning something that someone with power over you (like a parent or teacher) decides you must learn as externally imposed and non-autonomous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-75318969647412595042010-10-05T14:55:11.671-07:002010-10-05T14:55:11.671-07:00"I've never found the opposite to be true..."I've never found the opposite to be true."<br /><br />Though I suppose it depends on what you class as external factors. I would count studying a course for a qualification required for a job I want as autonomous even if I were not that interested in some of the material. I am studying by my own choice for my own ends. Maybe you would count this as an external factor and not count the learning as autonomous? I consider learning something that someone with power over you (like a parent or teacher) decides you must learn. I don't count employers as we can always resign if push comes to shove. We are working by our own choice for things that we want. If we didn't want the things that money can buy and the self respect gained from paying our way we could, ultimately, live off the state. A child (or a prisoner maybe) does not have the same choices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-67281773760331566662010-10-05T14:36:24.434-07:002010-10-05T14:36:24.434-07:00I've never found the opposite to be true. Mayb...I've never found the opposite to be true. Maybe that's the difference between AE and parent-led educators? Their own experiences of learning coupled with seeing their children thriving and learning. I'm sure you would have changed your approach if you could see that Simone did not respond well to parent-led education, just as I would have done for my children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-20673334483589990882010-10-05T14:31:59.328-07:002010-10-05T14:31:59.328-07:00'Have you never found that learning something ...'Have you never found that learning something by your own choice has resulted in a deeper and more thorough understanding of the subject matter than something you are not particularly interested in but are told by someone else you must learn?'<br /><br />Of course I have found this. I have also found the opposite case, when external factors were more powerful incentives. The question is not whether it can be the case; that is beyond doubt.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-18948119443265516392010-10-05T14:27:35.187-07:002010-10-05T14:27:35.187-07:00"Nobody in their senses would deny that auton..."Nobody in their senses would deny that autonomous learing is possible and takes place. The question to ask is is this as effective as more traditional educational methods and has it any disadvantages which conventional teaching lacks?"<br /><br />Have you never found that learning something by your own choice has resulted in a deeper and more thorough understanding of the subject matter than something you are not particularly interested in but are told by someone else you must learn?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-33581574588097777982010-10-05T14:26:02.837-07:002010-10-05T14:26:02.837-07:00"'Rote learning with no meaning quite oft..."'Rote learning with no meaning quite often is forgotten.'<br /><br />Nor do I know anybody in favour of this!"<br /><br />I've used it myself as part of my own education. Sometimes it's the best way to learn a long list of chemicals and their structures, the times tables or the months of the year, for instance. I've autonomously chosen to learn all of these and more by rote.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-50748008261456139742010-10-05T14:20:30.145-07:002010-10-05T14:20:30.145-07:00'autonomous education is about being child led...'autonomous education is about being child led. It is not about leaving your child to get everything wrong, and then watching them struggle.'<br /><br />I'm not sure who suggested such a thing!<br /><br />' Rote learning with no meaning quite often is forgotten. '<br /><br />Nor do I know anybody in favour of this!<br /><br />' I don't think you can teach reading if the child hasn't got it. They get it eventually, whether we are there or not. '<br /><br />Evidence needed for this assertion<br /><br />'If it is possible then it exists. So why exactly are you trying to say it doesn't?'<br /><br />Nobody in their senses would deny that autonomous learing is possible and takes place. The question to ask is is this as effective as more traditional educational methods and has it any disadvantages which conventional teaching lacks?Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-17118410988829353742010-10-05T13:06:43.250-07:002010-10-05T13:06:43.250-07:00Simon,
autonomous education is about being child ...Simon,<br /> autonomous education is about being child led. It is not about leaving your child to get everything wrong, and then watching them struggle. I really think you need to go back to the classroom and start again. My child did teach herself to read in that she used the resources around her (books, tv,computer, parents, shop signs etc.) and she sussed it out. She went from no reading to fluent reading in the course of a few weeks. If I had written a lesson plan to *make* that happen over those two weeks, it would never have happened. You probably were autonomously educating to a degree, in that you cannot make someone learn if they don't want to or haven't reached that stage yet. Your input might have hindered yet your child may have learnt anyway. How do you know she didn't do it in spite of your efforts?<br />I think people always autonomously learn when they retain something that they want to. Rote learning with no meaning quite often is forgotten. I don't think you can teach reading if the child hasn't got it. They get it eventually, whether we are there or not. If one person on this planet has worked out something for themselves without formal instruction (see the hole in the wall experiment as an example), then we must acknowledge that autonomous education is possible. If it is possible then it exists. So why exactly are you trying to say it doesn't? <br /><br />If you want to join the ranks of autonomous learners, I'm sure you will be most welcome :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-56775023436582934362010-10-05T13:01:05.673-07:002010-10-05T13:01:05.673-07:00Sorry, that should have included a quote:
"I...Sorry, that should have included a quote:<br /><br />"It is teaching the child that there is a right answer and a wrong one. his job is to find the right answer. he is asking no questions of his own and only responding to those of the teacher."<br /><br />And if he can refuse to take part and do something else instead, it's AE. By taking part knowing that he does not have to he is taking part because he chooses to. I taught my child to read using a phonics course in much the same way. He asked me to teach him using that book. He also (usually) did not ask questions whilst we were working through the book. Why would this not count as AE?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-51196577423999111562010-10-05T12:57:56.050-07:002010-10-05T12:57:56.050-07:00And if he can refuse to take part and do something...And if he can refuse to take part and do something else instead, it's AE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-12511112150060108842010-10-05T12:55:49.992-07:002010-10-05T12:55:49.992-07:00Kit knew all of his numbers and most of his letter...Kit knew all of his numbers and most of his letters before he could speak. He would point and make questioning noises, and if we asked if he could find a particular number he'd point at it. Even in the swimming pool at six months old he would make for the depth markers and point at the numbers. <br /><br />And yes, swimming was one thing where he didn't get an initial say, because he started at seven weeks old. He had a break of a year after he turned two because he had developed a fear of water, but then picked it up again and now gets to swim four times a week, two of them with a local swim club. He's a better swimmer than I am.<br /><br />I'm quite happy to teach him the correct answer if he gets something wrong and he's happy to be taught so that next time he'll get it right.<br /><br />As I said, your definition of autonomous is different to mine - I'd guess I'm somewhere in the middle, your definition is somewhere out on the far fringe bordering on neglect and I think that's why you have such a hard time accepting that what most people call autonomous is nothing like you seem to think it is. By your reckoning, an AE would let a child put a hand on a cooker hotplate that would burn because the child needed to learn the hard way, whereas most of us are more practical than that and don't see it as violating any principles to actively prevent the child from discovering the hard way that it's not a good idea.Dave Hnoreply@blogger.com