tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post4765335202010626852..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: The DCSF feasibility studySimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-78911320763210581882010-02-18T03:17:07.695-08:002010-02-18T03:17:07.695-08:00LOL, it's nice to dream, isn't it.LOL, it's nice to dream, isn't it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-35278508567953824522010-02-18T02:16:38.973-08:002010-02-18T02:16:38.973-08:00That's my understanding too.
I think I got ca...That's my understanding too.<br /><br />I think I got carried away with my "Cochrane 2.0 the social science version" in my head and had them actually doing doing my bidding by producing research on demand ( :TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-48804339823110130022010-02-17T16:13:38.991-08:002010-02-17T16:13:38.991-08:00Do the Cochrane review carry out research? I thoug...Do the Cochrane review carry out research? I thought they review and disseminate the research of others. I would love to seem more (genuine) research based policy making in government as opposed to media/opinion driven policy. We still have the issue of who decides what end points are desirable and who gets to impose their views on others though and I'm not sure research would help with that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-28092416961292043132010-02-17T14:23:39.950-08:002010-02-17T14:23:39.950-08:00"but do you think the government would take a..."but do you think the government would take any more notice of them than they did the Cambridge Review? "<br /> <br />I was thinking more in terms of the usefulness for us, having access to sizable, dependable data that relates to our educational choices.<br /><br />Governments are a different kettle of fish, but I certainly don't think it could hurt.TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-52234409055850163942010-02-17T13:41:49.939-08:002010-02-17T13:41:49.939-08:00Yes, something like Cochrane for social research w...Yes, something like Cochrane for social research would be great and would probably be very useful to many, but do you think the government would take any more notice of them than they did the Cambridge Review?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-58007395043416833432010-02-17T03:26:10.330-08:002010-02-17T03:26:10.330-08:00"find some voluntary-sector organisation to d..."find some voluntary-sector organisation to do it"<br /><br />Or better still the setting up of a Cochrane for social sciences.TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-80401766913330347892010-02-16T11:52:05.262-08:002010-02-16T11:52:05.262-08:00Simon wrote:
'Here is what is actually propose...Simon wrote:<br />'Here is what is actually proposed;<br /><br />"DCSF intends to commission a study to investigate the.feasibility of embarking on a longitudinal project investigating...'<br /><br />It sounds like something from "Yes Minister" to me, but that's fine just so long as they find some voluntary-sector organisation to do it, instead of wasting our taxes on another idiotic bureaucratic binge like Badman's effort. But I'm sure they won't.<br /><br />'...I am sure that there will be ample opportunity for home educating parents to put their views across.'<br /><br />ROTFL!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-73562294961906974962010-02-16T11:47:06.062-08:002010-02-16T11:47:06.062-08:00"I doubt that it will be restricted to GCSEs...."I doubt that it will be restricted to GCSEs. The idea eventually is to identify a number of home educated children and follow their progress."<br /><br /><br />That would actually be very interesting if they got a good sized and varied sample.<br /><br />Do we know more or less what the number will be or is it still TBD ?TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-28016219695125572022010-02-16T09:32:01.634-08:002010-02-16T09:32:01.634-08:00"Your kids and their peers are now grown up, ..."Your kids and their peers are now grown up, I think you said. Or I assume that's what you meant when you said they'd not taken GCSE's but it hadn't held them back, which obviously is not what I'd implied anyway."<br /><br />They range in age from 5 to 21 with most in the 14-18 year old range.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-71446368189971653712010-02-16T09:06:00.747-08:002010-02-16T09:06:00.747-08:00>>>>>>>>>>Do you kno...>>>>>>>>>>Do you know all of the home educators in your area? I or some of my friends might even live in the same area as you for all you or I know. Most (possibly all) of my children's friends no longer have contact with local HE groups.<br /><<<<<<<<<<<<<br /><br />Actually, for various reasons, I think I do know most of them. Your kids and their peers are now grown up, I think you said. Or I assume that's what you meant when you said they'd not taken GCSE's but it hadn't held them back, which obviously is not what I'd implied anyway.<br /><br />However, I was referring to my younger child's age peers and those younger. I really wish I did know more former HE'ers, though I am friends with a few.<br /><br />Mrs AnonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-67363898273447934852010-02-16T08:35:29.977-08:002010-02-16T08:35:29.977-08:00Here is what is actually proposed;
"DCSF int...Here is what is actually proposed;<br /><br />"DCSF intends to commission a study to investigate the.feasibility of embarking on a longitudinal project investigating the provision of teaching and learning for, and the attainment of, home-educated children. <br /><br />The overarching aim of the feasibility study will be to: <br /><br />A small-scale investigation at LA-level to assess numbers of home-educated children known to them;<br /><br />Research with voluntary organisations to establish number and type of children known to them; and<br /><br />Research with families who home educate."<br /><br />I am sure that there will be ample opportunity for home educating parents to put their views across. I doubt that it will be restricted to GCSEs. The idea eventually is to identify a number of home educated children and follow their progress.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-90542857143917754972010-02-16T08:22:00.570-08:002010-02-16T08:22:00.570-08:00"I said, 'in our area'."
Do you..."I said, 'in our area'."<br /><br />Do you know all of the home educators in your area? I or some of my friends might even live in the same area as you for all you or I know. Most (possibly all) of my children's friends no longer have contact with local HE groups.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-10548386935330294782010-02-16T07:50:36.924-08:002010-02-16T07:50:36.924-08:00Would it be possible to ask for alternative routes...Would it be possible to ask for alternative routes (ie exams taken later, OU credits etc) to be collated as well and represented in the data ?<br /><br />If you they are going to go to the effort of getting a picture of the state of play it might as well be complete one.TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-29070665340232180922010-02-16T07:30:37.299-08:002010-02-16T07:30:37.299-08:00I said, 'in our area'.
Mrs AnonI said, 'in our area'.<br /><br />Mrs AnonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-45408988098914810432010-02-16T07:27:14.528-08:002010-02-16T07:27:14.528-08:00"Why anybody would be opposed to asking such ..."Why anybody would be opposed to asking such questions is completely beyond me."<br /><br />A group of parents decide the GCSEs are not suitable for their children (for a variety of reasons) and find alternative routes. The government looks at their GCSE results and, because GCSE results are their measure of a good enough education, decide that the HE is failing to educate adequately and future home educators will be more tightly controlled so that GCSE results in this group improve. <br /><br />Can you honestly say you see no problem with this scenario or that you think government take any notice of parents who complain that they don't like the measure being used?<br /><br />"When their kids hit 12/13 they all join the HEexams list and start asking the veterans for info."<br /><br />Not all of them - we didn't and it hasn't held us back. If that's where you are that's what you will see, but I know plenty of families with children in the late teens and early 20's and none of them have taken GCSEs at home (though about 2 out of about 14 have taken some at college). Most are attending college or are at university now (or heading that way).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-77795072377619258032010-02-16T06:56:38.214-08:002010-02-16T06:56:38.214-08:00Simon wrote:
"Why anybody would be opposed to...Simon wrote:<br />"Why anybody would be opposed to asking such questions is completely beyond me."<br /><br />Because it's like fiddling while Rome burns; harmless on the face of it, and who could possibly object to some good music and a warm fire?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-10752711583178478742010-02-16T06:39:08.819-08:002010-02-16T06:39:08.819-08:00suzyg wrote:
'A university lecturer once told ...suzyg wrote:<br />'A university lecturer once told me the formal feedback from students about his lectures included the complaint that "he told us things we didn't know about".'<br /><br />In the immortal words of Bart Simpson: "You're damned if you do and damned if you don't".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-69906698321875390262010-02-16T05:54:18.739-08:002010-02-16T05:54:18.739-08:00>>>>>>>>>>It is prob...>>>>>>>>>>It is probably true that home educating parents set less store by GCSEs than do the parents of those at school.<<<<<<<<br /><br />Not in our area. The only people who state categorically that their kids won't be taking GCSE's are those with young, young children. LOL! When their kids hit 12/13 they all join the HEexams list and start asking the veterans for info.<br /><br />Mrs AnonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-46550473563896327292010-02-16T05:51:17.596-08:002010-02-16T05:51:17.596-08:00>>>>>>>>>>>Hand o...>>>>>>>>>>>Hand on heart Mrs. Anon, would you really not be interested in seeing those figures? I bet you would! What I suspect many parents are thinking is that it would be great to know about this, if only the information could be kept away from the DCSF and local authorities.<<<<<<<<<<<<br /><br />Do you mean a like for like comparison, matched participants, long, long study over time accepting alternative qualifications etc? Kinda, but there are other things I'm more curious about Simon. Like why is your experience of HE and HE'ers seems to be so different to mine. LOL!<br /><br />I'm not particularly curious about purely exam results among HE'ers because I'm in touch with dozens of my younger child's peers and they are all doing so well. WAY above the national average for schools in terms of results. Apart from the ones with ASD. <br /><br />I do accept that the national picture might be different to the local one though. I guess I'd be vaguely curious to see if my experience of HE kids round here is replicated nationally.<br /><br />Mrs AnonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-12248121800451083292010-02-16T05:44:36.811-08:002010-02-16T05:44:36.811-08:00Anonymous said "University departments runnin...Anonymous said "University departments running courses in physical/mathematical sciences and engineering are seeing a severe decline in the capabilities of their freshers for analysing and tackling previously unseen problems. If they haven't been taught how to handle that particular case they are stuck - and often complain that it wasn't in the lectures."<br /><br />A university lecturer once told me the formal feedback from students about his lectures included the complaint that "he told us things we didn't know about".suzygnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-18748153986785654752010-02-16T05:25:46.694-08:002010-02-16T05:25:46.694-08:00It is probably true that home educating parents se...It is probably true that home educating parents set less store by GCSEs than do the parents of those at school. This is no reason though not to ask questions. Rather more than half of children at school do not go on to university. Does this mean that we should not collect information about those who do, simply because they are in a minority? More to the point, should we not ask ourselves just why children do not go to university and try and see if they are being put off it for some reason? Most would agree that this is a good thing.<br /><br />Precisely the same applies to GCSEs. It may be true that only a minority of home educated children take them, but that is no reason at all not to collect information about it. It is also worth asking just why some do not take GCSEs. Is it because of the difficulty in finding an examination centre which takes private candidates? Is the cost putting their parents off? Why anybody would be opposed to asking such questions is completely beyond me.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-47284697302028970362010-02-16T05:04:33.047-08:002010-02-16T05:04:33.047-08:00Going back to suzyg's point about GCSEs, I thi...Going back to suzyg's point about GCSEs, I think the problem with them is that they concentrate much more on regurgitating information than on understanding and (in maths and science) problem solving. The same has happened at A-level. If anything, some GCSEs are trying to cover too much material, but in a superficial manner.<br /><br />University departments running courses in physical/mathematical sciences and engineering are seeing a severe decline in the capabilities of their freshers for analysing and tackling previously unseen problems. If they haven't been taught how to handle that particular case they are stuck - and often complain that it wasn't in the lectures.<br /><br />In school, regurgitation has a much greater emphasis on presentation; it seems that a colourful, word-processed piece of drivel can attract a higher grade than a rigorous piece of hand-written work.<br /><br />The result is that children are working harder (and often enlisting considerable support from parents) to produce less of real value (other than landfill); they and their parents are being conned by the school system. That's why simply looking at GCSEs is pointless.<br /><br />I'm not opposed to exams at all; but if you want a real measure, look at the kind of thing that S-level used to test (and I don't mean AS-level). I'm not suggesting it needs to be that advanced, but the guiding principles would be a good start. I suspect that most people involved in the contemporary education system and its associated logocracy would run a mile.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-71626692257648482662010-02-16T03:50:08.806-08:002010-02-16T03:50:08.806-08:00"It is certainly good reason to set a close w..."It is certainly good reason to set a close watch upon the government and draw attention to their misuse of data. "<br /><br />What, like we have with the Badman 'research' data? How much notice did have they taken?<br /><br />"Are we saying here that nobody should ever count or measure anything in case the government uses the figures wrongly or misrepresents them?"<br /><br />Not necessarily but we should decide on what is worth counting and measuring and why we want this information before we start.<br /><br />"Or are we perhaps saying that it is fine to collect information about the number of GCSEs taken by pupils in maintained schools, OK to ask questions about the shocking state of modern schools and try and find ways to improve them, but that when it comes to home educated children, we should stop dead and not try to find anything out?"<br /><br />It is appropriate to count GCSEs for schools because that is their target end point. The equivalent to counting GCSEs for HE children would be something like counting the number of Open University qualifications gained by 16 years olds in schools and using that figure to reach conclusions about the success or failure of schools. If you just looked at the sub-group of home educators whose primary aim is GCSEs, then you would be comparing like with like. But this is not the case so they will be comparing apples to oranges.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-67001436716869980572010-02-16T03:41:58.783-08:002010-02-16T03:41:58.783-08:00if only the information could be kept away from th...if only the information could be kept away from the DCSF and local authorities.<br />Who cares what the DCSF/local Authorties think i know we dont!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-36440521380594166902010-02-16T03:37:53.274-08:002010-02-16T03:37:53.274-08:00Hand on heart Mrs. Anon, would you really not be i...Hand on heart Mrs. Anon, would you really not be interested in seeing those figures? I bet you would! What I suspect many parents are thinking is that it would be great to know about this, if only the information could be kept away from the DCSF and local authorities.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.com