tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post4839031391797659062..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: More about home education and worries about child abuseSimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-11725439689711598862013-05-05T06:00:51.061-07:002013-05-05T06:00:51.061-07:00No home visits here either :) No home visits here either :) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-42411765313185384162013-05-03T06:16:30.415-07:002013-05-03T06:16:30.415-07:00"In practice, most non-HE parents couldn'... "In practice, most non-HE parents couldn't care less about things that don't affect them, and certainly wouldn't want to divert resources to such a narrow group."<br /><br />you are right well said Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-64339934815947713382013-05-03T06:15:09.234-07:002013-05-03T06:15:09.234-07:00no home visits for us thxno home visits for us thxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-42807771087239636282013-05-02T09:25:35.327-07:002013-05-02T09:25:35.327-07:00+1+1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-34078808164533951342013-05-02T09:12:38.621-07:002013-05-02T09:12:38.621-07:00It may be helpful for you to know that you can tal...It may be helpful for you to know that you can talk through a hypothetical situation with social services, get advice and then think through your decision before reporting anyone or not. I did this once. On the basis of the information I received and after having thought it through, I decided against making a complaint.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-88699415246064689462013-05-02T09:08:52.629-07:002013-05-02T09:08:52.629-07:00I agree with Sharon it should be the default of al...I agree with Sharon it should be the default of all adults. There's only certain people in the home ed community that others seem to have a problem with for even thinking about reporting anyone if they have concerns. You have to do what you think is right at the time of doing it. It is a very hard decision to make especially if your not sure you are right about what's going on. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-17990716033360172482013-05-02T06:36:20.173-07:002013-05-02T06:36:20.173-07:00"I will be slated for saying this, but perhap..."I will be slated for saying this, but perhaps part of the solution is for home educators to be willing to take an interest in children other than their own and, where they have reason to be concerned about a family, to report their concerns."<br /><br />I'm surprised you even need to suggest this. I would expect this to be the default behaviour of every adult in the country. <br /><br />"Of course it doesn't help in the decision-making process to know that, even if I do talk to social services, they may take no action anyway."<br /><br />Even if they take no action this time, your report may still be valuable if other people report concerns at a later date - they may also already been reported before. I am assuming that your difficulty is in judging if harm is taking place at all? Presumably if you knew for sure the child is being harmed you would not hesitate to report them. If I were in your situation I would read all I could lay my hands on about how to recognise abuse. These links may be a good starting point (sorry if you've already seen them).<br /><br />http://www.nspcc.org.uk/help-and-advice/leaflets/leaflets-list_wda83843.html<br /><br />http://www.nspcc.org.uk/help-and-advice/enquiries/frequently-asked-questions_wda83770.html#when<br /><br />Sharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-62164798677697099312013-05-02T05:45:14.828-07:002013-05-02T05:45:14.828-07:00I will be slated for saying this, but perhaps part...I will be slated for saying this, but perhaps part of the solution is for home educators to be willing to take an interest in children other than their own and, where they have reason to be concerned about a family, to report their concerns. If a child is "off the radar", other home educators may be the only people who know about them. <br /><br />I'm currently going through an immense amount of soul-searching because I have concerns for the welfare of a home educated child and don't know whether to act. Without going into potentially identifying details, I know that if I don't talk to social services there is literally nobody else who can, since the child is completely isolated.<br /><br />Of course it doesn't help in the decision-making process to know that, even if I do talk to social services, they may take no action anyway.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-44235751370437077702013-05-02T04:54:02.332-07:002013-05-02T04:54:02.332-07:00With the best will in the world, the resources, mo...With the best will in the world, the resources, money, people and capabilities available to protect children from abuse will always be limited. The question underlying the discussion here is how the available resources, etc., should be allocated to minimise the incidence of abuse.<br /><br />Concentrating more resources on home educators seems to be a bizarre choice for child welfare; attendance in school doesn't seem to do very much to help, unless one believes that without the all-seeing eyes of overworked teachers, the abuse rate among school children would be even higher than it appears to be already.<br /><br />Simon - as usual - is trying to whip up a case for more intrusive monitoring of home educators using another nasty case. One can see this in his language in which he frequently implies that most parents are disturbed or horrified by home educators. In practice, most non-HE parents couldn't care less about things that don't affect them, and certainly wouldn't want to divert resources to such a narrow group.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-19903094780018639442013-05-02T04:25:21.089-07:002013-05-02T04:25:21.089-07:00The Bottoms, Rudnicki & Epstein 2007 study of ...The Bottoms, Rudnicki & Epstein 2007 study of American college students found that abuse ended in only a quarter of cases after the victim disclosed that they were being abused. I'm stunned and horrified by that figure. They state in their conclusion that, '[victims] disclose in ways that do not lead to formal investigation and do not bring an end to their abuse'. So not only do high numbers of abuse victims not disclose during childhood, disclosure more often than not, fails to end the abuse.<br /><br />http://tigger.uic.edu/labs/pll/bottoms-rudnicki-epstein-2007.pdfSharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-47955612058471058392013-05-02T04:22:17.674-07:002013-05-02T04:22:17.674-07:00I've read the whole judgement and I agree with...I've read the whole judgement and I agree with Sharon.<br /><br />It's a mystery to me how - apart from more effective follow-up of reported concerns - anything other than 24-hour/day monitoring would have helped in this case.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-3122601600404079382013-05-02T02:59:47.891-07:002013-05-02T02:59:47.891-07:00Anonymous wrote,
"If people read the whole ju...Anonymous wrote,<br />"If people read the whole judgement (and I recommend that they do), it's clear that even cursory scrutiny would have shown that something was deeply wrong with the family"<br /><br />You appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that if only we bothered to read the whole judgement we would inevitable agree with your conclusions. Sorry to disappoint but I read the judgement and could not disagree more. Your solution - LA visits to all HE families - would at best have changed nothing. At worst, visits would result in a false sense that HE families have passed an inspection making people less likely to report any concerns, and also potentially divert money and resources from where they could actually help children at risk of harm. <br /><br />Spend the money on improving follow-up of reported concerns by reducing social worker caseloads or by improved training; this is more likely to help children than spending it on the inspection of tens of thousands of innocent families plus the additional cost of following-up on the many, inevitable, false-positives that the inspections will throw up. Nothing you have said and nothing in the judgement convinces me that blanket surveillance is more effective than social surveillance, quite the reverse in fact. Social surveillance worked very effectively in this case; concerns about the family were reported to the authorities on four separate occasions. It was the response of the authorities that failed* so this is where the money needs to be spent.<br /><br /><br />* though it must be said in defence of social workers that it cannot always be possible to tell that a family is abusing it's children. It's not tattooed across their foreheads, after all. There must be occasions where even the best of the best social workers would not recognise a problem. We are talking, often, about highly manipulative and convincing people and children who are highly controlled and also usually love their abusers. Often the fear of what will happen if the authorities find out appears worse than what is happening to them (judging by the research with adult survivors of abuse).Sharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-59111835966783408002013-05-02T02:09:34.032-07:002013-05-02T02:09:34.032-07:00''if the LAs can claim control of >90% ...''if the LAs can claim control of >90% of HE kids, they'll have big bragging rights - and that translates into power, glory and money.''<br /><br />If you don't understand why this is correct, Simon, then it's quite clear that you don't understand the way in which middle managers in the modern civil service and LAs - and, for that matter, many private sector organisations - progress up the career ladder.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-22752989169119377522013-05-02T02:02:45.575-07:002013-05-02T02:02:45.575-07:00Do you mean did I read: Had the local authority ha...Do you mean did I read: Had the local authority had more power to intervene with the family would there have been more opportunities to help the girls? I think, yes- more opportunities to drop the ball as well, but nevertheless. Had the local authority had the power to compel school attendance on the basis of the child protection concerns and the mothers worrying behaviour and attitudes, it's possible (although not guaranteed) that the daughters would have had more opportunity to develop relationships with other adults and peers which may have enabled them to disclose what was going on (and it's worth noting that the whole thing began to unravel when outside agencies and adults became involved0. It's also possible (but not guaranteed) that they would have had the space to develop as people, away from there mother's constant malignant influence in a way which would have made them less likely to be as compliant and submissive when faced with her crazy scheme. <br /><br />If so then obviously I didAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-14560905619376368902013-05-02T01:57:46.292-07:002013-05-02T01:57:46.292-07:00"I find when reading many of the comments mad..."I find when reading many of the comments made on this blog, that I am irresistably reminded of what Schiller said: Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens. This translates roughly as; against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain!"<br /><br />I know, it's shocking, isn't it Simon. I don't know what the world is coming to when people don't supplicate to the holy trinity of Balls, Badman and Webb, and all the lesser deities that support them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-46246948584617517342013-05-02T00:51:53.709-07:002013-05-02T00:51:53.709-07:00It isn't strange at all; it's the authorit...It isn't strange at all; it's the authorities that are playing "silly buggers", backing-off from difficult cases. <br /><br />Dealing with some of the rough cases is very unpleasant in many ways, whereas for those with a bureaucratic box-ticking mentality, it would be much easier to spend their days in the homes of nice middle-class parents - if only they could get in - where nasty things are less common and it's easier to hit some spurious targets.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-60704181820086237352013-05-02T00:23:13.946-07:002013-05-02T00:23:13.946-07:00"Why, you damned fool, they are doing their ..."Why, you damned fool, they are doing their job and attempting to find out who is the real abuser among these identical cases and which are just irritating, middle class parents playing silly buggers."<br /><br />Strange, then, isn't it, that when social services do come across cases where they undoubtedly see that something is obviously wrong (like Khyra Ishaq, Victoria Climbié and others), they don't bother to do anything until it's too late.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-54044190770130526752013-05-02T00:06:34.624-07:002013-05-02T00:06:34.624-07:00"The comment I quoted today"...
...hit ..."The comment I quoted today"...<br /><br />...hit the nail firmly on the head, and that's why you're squealing like a stuck pig, Simon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-41090197188866359552013-05-01T22:28:03.497-07:002013-05-01T22:28:03.497-07:00Did you even read the post to which you were reply...Did you even read the post to which you were replying?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-91021026961571950512013-05-01T17:18:23.999-07:002013-05-01T17:18:23.999-07:00Simon wrote:
"Essentially, what is happening ...Simon wrote:<br />"Essentially, what is happening is this. A group of people, most of whom are quite innocent, are deliberately setting out to imitate the lifestyle and adopt the actions of abusive parents. In the process, they waste everybody’s time by generating hundreds, perhaps thousands of false positives; each of which must be investigated."<br /><br />It seems remarkable that Simon complains about "stupid" things being written by those that comment on his blog, then he produces asinine drivel like this - but on reflection, it isn't remarkable at all. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-4522348642603886982013-05-01T15:45:45.099-07:002013-05-01T15:45:45.099-07:00Ken roach has been charged with 2 counts of rape o...Ken roach has been charged with 2 counts of rape of a 15 yr old girl in 1967. No mention of the 'girl' being home educated & so far no mention of her speaking to anyone about it until now. Anyone who reads or watches the news will know there are a lot of historic abuse claims happening at the moment. So far all children involved were schooled children ( the media would have jumped at the chance to mention if HE was involved) <br /><br />So lots of children been abused. Had plenty of chance to disclose to professionals at school etc but never did. Is it only HE children that are likely to disclose anything of professionals were involved but didn't because they weren't involved. Or have I missed something where LA's have a magic wand & are able to get kids to speak out sooner? If so why weren't they involved in school kids who were being abusedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-14589929082875633642013-05-01T15:25:12.890-07:002013-05-01T15:25:12.890-07:00I think the argument as to whether home education ...I think the argument as to whether home education enabled the abuse misses, or at least only partially gets, the point, which is that the home education was part of the abuse. It isolated the girls from outside sources of support and influences that might have diluted the formative effects of the mother's narcissism or loosened her control over them. <br /><br />If people read the whole judgement (and I recommend that they do), it's clear that even cursory scrutiny would have shown that something was deeply wrong with the family:<br /><br />"The children have reacted in different ways. A appears to have adopted a strategy of submissiveness. Her father, who re-established contact with her recently, describes her as timid and notes that she speaks with a very, very quiet voice. He says that she spoke more loudly and confidently when she was aged 6. Mr P, the family friend to whom A eventually spoke, relates that her voice is so exceedingly quiet that he and his wife wondered at first whether she had some vocal disability. As he came to know the mother he found that, when talking to her, "you had to fight your corner". She would talk at A, and it was easier for A to be quiet than to talk."<br /><br />Had the local authority had more power to intervene with the family would there have been more opportunities to help the girls? I think, yes- more opportunities to drop the ball as well, but nevertheless. Had the local authority had the power to compel school attendance on the basis of the child protection concerns and the mothers worrying behaviour and attitudes, it's possible (although not guaranteed) that the daughters would have had more opportunity to develop relationships with other adults and peers which may have enabled them to disclose what was going on (and it's worth noting that the whole thing began to unravel when outside agencies and adults became involved0. It's also possible (but not guaranteed) that they would have had the space to develop as people, away from there mother's constant malignant influence in a way which would have made them less likely to be as compliant and submissive when faced with her crazy scheme. <br /><br />I'm also reminded of the post on this blog, last friday, where the forum members were advising the divorced father- about whom they knew nothing- about how to keep statutory agencies at bay. This mother appears to have been an active member of the home education community. Had she posted about her earlier encounters with social services it is highly likely that the same forum members would have happily counselled her on how to ward off agencies that might have helped her daughters, something that ought to give them pause for thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-44057174686289850822013-05-01T15:19:25.409-07:002013-05-01T15:19:25.409-07:00Simon wrote:
"Commenting here yesterday, some...Simon wrote:<br />"Commenting here yesterday, some mischievous fool wrote;"<br /><br />Simon seems to have been rather selective; quoting in full:<br /><br />"I agree; the obsession with home educators as a target for monitoring would seem bizarre, given that there are richer pickings in the wider community for anyone genuinely concerned about child welfare.<br /><br />However, none of this is about child welfare; it's simply about protection of the authorities' backsides, and LAs/social workers dealing with easy, tractable problems in a way that looks as though they're achieving success by hitting some targets. <br /><br />There isn't a hope in hell that they can deal with the wider problem of child abuse, but the HE subset is an easy target for them to latch onto. The rest of the kids can go to hell in a hand cart, but if the LAs can claim control of >90% of HE kids, they'll have big bragging rights - and that translates into power, glory and money."<br /><br />Is Simon saying he only has a problem with the part he quoted?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-78129478566759569022013-05-01T15:07:13.551-07:002013-05-01T15:07:13.551-07:00I find when reading many of the comments made on t...I find when reading many of the comments made on this blog, that I am irresistably reminded of what Schiller said: Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens. This translates roughly as; against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain!<br /><br />Oh dear mr Webb you obviously don't read what you write as the same could be said about most of what you writeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-21967847171306193952013-05-01T14:20:48.189-07:002013-05-01T14:20:48.189-07:00"the gods"
And therein lies the problem..."the gods"<br /><br />And therein lies the problem. People like Simon and those who wield power have a somewhat grandiose view of themselves.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com