tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post5748365603481143001..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: Joy BakerSimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-65678596527851534842013-07-28T15:58:11.588-07:002013-07-28T15:58:11.588-07:00how about treating everyone as an individual and w...how about treating everyone as an individual and wondering whether the actual parents of the individual children might be best placed to know their strengths and weaknesses and interests and personalities, and love them more than anyone else in the world and might possibly be the best placed person to give them the education that they particularly want and need?<br /><br />Maybe those children felt happy and well prepared for the kinds of lives that they actually wanted?<br /><br />Possibly not I don't know but it's quite likely that someone making a positive choice not to send their children to school does so because they want what they perceive as something better.. And don't they have the god given right as parents to make that kind of choice? As long as their choice is not damaging to the child. Seeing as how it's possible to go into education post 18 and make that choice for yourself is it necessarily harmful to never experience schooling before this age? Lucynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-9564490012648268212013-04-25T04:00:58.006-07:002013-04-25T04:00:58.006-07:00You are so awesome! I don't suppose I have rea...You are so awesome! I don't suppose I have read something like this before. So good to find another person with unique thoughts on this issue. Seriously.. thanks for starting this up. This website is one thing that is required on the internet, someone with a bit of originality!<br /><br />Here is my website; <a href="http://my-ip.us/" rel="nofollow">my ip is blocked from facebook</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-75088855229724164392013-04-23T14:09:33.213-07:002013-04-23T14:09:33.213-07:00Great beat ! I would like to apprentice while you ...Great beat ! I would like to apprentice while you amend your website, how <br />could i subscribe for a blog website? The account aided me a <br />acceptable deal. 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This is actually a tremendous website.<br /><br /><br />Also visit my blog :: <a href="http://parkerenschipholx.nl/" rel="nofollow">description</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-21770060527833759952013-01-21T01:18:43.839-08:002013-01-21T01:18:43.839-08:00Then you are confused, Simon; you've muddled d...Then you are confused, Simon; you've muddled different points - but perhaps deliberately so, for effect. The other point was clearly unrelated, but you tried to imply it was sexist when it clearly wasn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-35709804203534360412013-01-20T09:30:47.362-08:002013-01-20T09:30:47.362-08:00'Then you are confused, Simon; you've mudd...'Then you are confused, Simon; you've muddled different points - but perhaps deliberately so, for effect. The other point was clearly unrelated, but you tried to imply it was sexist when it clearly wasn't.'<br /><br />One of us is confused, certainly. The person who brought up Joy Baker a few days ago clearly thought that she had the right idea about the edcuation of girls. Here is the original exchange:<br /><br /><br /><br />Has Webb not heard of Joy Baker "Children in Chancery" Never let the facts get in the way of rhetoric eh Simon?<br /><br />I have the book in front of me as I write, along with copies of the newspaper reports of the case. You do know why Norfolk County Council was uneasy about Mrs Baker educating her children, don't you? I am talking about such things as her view that girls needed only a rudimentary education, because they would only be going on to be housewives, that sort of thing?<br /><br /><br />I'll warrant then that Joy's girls would have had to learn cookery, nutrition, household management, child care and basic account keeping - all valuable life skills and skills that would have enabled them to earn a living since these are services people pay for. On the other hand Simon Webb managed to equip his daughter to take a degree in the "non-subject" of philosophy. On balance I know which education seems to have been the most suitable.<br /><br /><br />Whoever this person is, he or she was very keen to talk about Joy Baker and as soon as I mentioned my own reservations, due chiefly to the way that she felt that girls did not need as good an education as boys, it was clear that the person commenting saw no problem with that. The sexism is there, plain to see. Most people would be horrified about somebody who treats girls differently as regards the level of education which they need. This individual thought it was fine.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-62105275518148556602013-01-20T08:49:59.492-08:002013-01-20T08:49:59.492-08:00"The original comment to which I drew attenti..."The original comment to which I drew attention was about philosophy...The writer seemed to be saying that both Joy Baker's daughters and mine would have been better off doing cooking and childcare. Since this was a point specifically relating to the education of girls, I thought it worth remarking upon. "<br /><br />Then you are confused, Simon; you've muddled different points - but perhaps deliberately so, for effect. The other point was clearly unrelated, but you tried to imply it was sexist when it clearly wasn't.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-40367329288853050192013-01-20T03:03:06.538-08:002013-01-20T03:03:06.538-08:00'But the comment referred to PPE, Simon; you s...'But the comment referred to PPE, Simon; you selectively quoted then generalised, and finally interpreted the comment as a public pronouncement rather than a point on a blog. This reflects your own innate prejudices more than anything else.'<br /><br />The original comment to which I drew attention was about philosophy:<br /><br /><br /><br />'I'll warrant then that Joy's girls would have had to learn cookery, nutrition, household management, child care and basic account keeping - all valuable life skills and skills that would have enabled them to earn a living since these are services people pay for. On the other hand Simon Webb managed to equip his daughter to take a degree in the "non-subject" of philosophy. On balance I know which education seems to have been the most suitable.'<br /><br />The writer seemed to be saying that both Joy Baker's daughters and mine would have been better off doing cooking and childcare. Since this was a point specifically relating to the education of girls, I thought it worth remarking upon. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-90071748592625513392013-01-20T02:57:56.579-08:002013-01-20T02:57:56.579-08:00But the comment referred to PPE, Simon; you select...But the comment referred to PPE, Simon; you selectively quoted then generalised, and finally interpreted the comment as a public pronouncement rather than a point on a blog. This reflects your own innate prejudices more than anything else.<br /><br />One might also argue - along your line about "few female engineers" - that the point was aimed at men slightly more than women. After all, who can doubt that the life chances of many women and men would be better if the likes of Cameron, Balls and many other PPE graduates (not to mention political lawyers) had stayed at home to cook and look after children.<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-54043188855040209582013-01-20T02:18:40.968-08:002013-01-20T02:18:40.968-08:00"Whether it's man or a woman, someone who..."Whether it's man or a woman, someone who can only cook and look after babies will fulfil a much more useful role than a PPE graduate. Many of the latter have helped to bring the country to its knees."<br /><br /><br />The discussion was originally about the education of girls and people who provide a different type of education for girls. It is very common for girls to end up cooking and looking after babies, but rare for men. Telling children that it is better to cook and look after babies than go to university will be more likely to have an adverse effect on the girls, regardless of tacking on the words, 'whether its man or woman'.<br /><br />Anything which might have the effect of guiding girls into a life of domesticity and away from achievements outside the home is shocking. In this case, what apperas at first sight to be a neutral piece of advice aimed equally at men and women will have this effect more upon girls than it will upon boys, who will assume that talk of looking after babies is not really intended for them.<br /><br />Giving subliminal messages of this sort which reinforce the patriarchy is always shocking, at least to me.<br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-14743677103814545782013-01-20T01:38:41.190-08:002013-01-20T01:38:41.190-08:00Anon wrote:
"Why is gender relevant here?'...Anon wrote:<br />"Why is gender relevant here?'"<br /><br />Simon repiied:<br /><br />"Because I suspect, and certainly hope, that most women would be horrified at the idea that a parent decided that her daughters needed a less demanding education than her sons. The person who has been commenting here did not seem to find this shocking. I think that this distorted perspective would be more likely in a man than a woman. Perhaps the person concerned could tell us?"<br /><br />What was shocking about that comment, Simon? It applied to both sexes but you quoted selectively, omitting the first part to make it look sexist; the original said:<br /><br />"<b><i>Whether it's man or a woman</i></b>, someone who can only cook and look after babies will fulfil a much more useful role than a PPE graduate. Many of the latter have helped to bring the country to its knees."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-58548267796384611362013-01-19T15:57:39.887-08:002013-01-19T15:57:39.887-08:00' I was talking about the normal or 'avera...' I was talking about the normal or 'average' treatment of girls in the '50s, so you're mother's experience means nothing unless you are suggesting that it was typical for the majority of girls in those times?'<br /><br />You will find all the relevant statistics in my latest book, which covers the period from 1945 - 1959!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-5642662382217316822013-01-19T15:55:43.227-08:002013-01-19T15:55:43.227-08:00'Did the research for this book inform your im...'Did the research for this book inform your improved knowledge of home education over the years?'<br /><br />Since the title of the book is 'School Life in Post-War Britain', I will leave it to you to guess the extent to which it would have been likely to inform my knowledge of home education!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-67784256688183300812013-01-19T14:26:41.966-08:002013-01-19T14:26:41.966-08:00Did the research for this book inform your improve...Did the research for this book inform your improved knowledge of home education over the years? Nice to see you playing catchup at last.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-9212696017754611652013-01-19T14:23:25.828-08:002013-01-19T14:23:25.828-08:00*you're*
your
I really must read through bef...*you're*<br /><br />your<br /><br />I really must read through before clicking...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-70121829988072653142013-01-19T14:22:26.667-08:002013-01-19T14:22:26.667-08:00If this is a reply to the message at 5:29, I was t...If this is a reply to the message at 5:29, I was talking about the normal or 'average' treatment of girls in the '50s, so you're mother's experience means nothing unless you are suggesting that it was typical for the majority of girls in those times? It was certainly not true for any of the girls in my mother's school!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-70683187648636700342013-01-19T12:17:54.564-08:002013-01-19T12:17:54.564-08:00'My mother was educated at a girls' gramma...'My mother was educated at a girls' grammar school in the late forties and early fifties and it was certainly not all about home-making. She was encouraged to go to university, which she did.'<br /><br />Yes, not everybody shared Joy Baker's views on the proper role for women, even in the 1950s. If I had told my daughter when she was little, "Listen darling, don't worry about academic stuff, someone who can only cook and look after babies will fulfil a much more useful role than a PPE graduate." then this would have been an absolutely toxic notion to instil in her. Never the less, this is just what one of those commenting here said. This is precisely what must be guarded against in the upbringing of girls in particular. Society pushes that message strongly enough already, without parents reinforcing it. <br /><br /><br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-36262203242926350922013-01-19T11:58:59.271-08:002013-01-19T11:58:59.271-08:00My mother was educated at a girls' grammar sch...My mother was educated at a girls' grammar school in the late forties and early fifties and it was certainly not all about home-making. She was encouraged to go to university, which she did.Alliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11321428226929318418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-72809441406634753612013-01-19T11:35:34.832-08:002013-01-19T11:35:34.832-08:00"There are few female engineers and so I cann...<br /><br />"There are few female engineers and so I cannot help wondering if this is a man. If so, would go some way to explaining these terrible views."<br /><br />Why is gender relevant here?'<br /><br />Because I suspect, and certainly hope, that most women would be horrified at the idea that a parent decided that her daughters needed a less demanding education than her sons. The person who has been commenting here did not seem to find this shocking. I think that this distorted perspective would be more likely in a man than a woman. Perhaps the person concerned could tell us?<br /><br />Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-89115425642821948922013-01-19T11:29:15.620-08:002013-01-19T11:29:15.620-08:00'this included the education most girls would ...'this included the education most girls would have received at school. In the 50's the vast majority of girls left school at 15 and, after, at most, a brief training period, entered employment only to leave once married. Genered vocational courses at secondary moderns were the norm for the majority of girls. '<br /><br /><br />If you wish to learn something about this subject, you might care to read a book of mine which is due out next week, The Best days of Our Lives; School Life in Post-War Britain.<br /><br /><br /><br />http://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Days-Our-Lives-Post-war/dp/0752486373/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358623475&sr=1-7Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-76043933254863545772013-01-19T08:23:09.156-08:002013-01-19T08:23:09.156-08:00'I think that this renders all comment on my p...'I think that this renders all comment on my part superfluous.'<br /><br />If only. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-11406160285777899052013-01-19T08:22:02.794-08:002013-01-19T08:22:02.794-08:00'[She] does not seem to wish to talk about her...'[She] does not seem to wish to talk about her children’s education at all. To this extent, she cuts a familiar enough figure, being typical of many modern home educating parents.'<br /><br />What on earth is this bit all about, Simon? Are you kidding? Home educators never shut up about their kids' education.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-90314326008433668552013-01-19T08:20:22.545-08:002013-01-19T08:20:22.545-08:00'She describes her own school days as ‘thoroug...'She describes her own school days as ‘thoroughly unhappy’, says that schools are places of ‘great unhappiness’, dislikes teachers and schools in general and does not seem to wish to talk about her children’s education at all. To this extent, she cuts a familiar enough figure, being typical of many modern home educating parents.'<br /><br />This is simply not true. In 15 years of HE and meeting hundreds of home educators and knowing quite a few of them extremely well, I have never heard any of them say that they didn't enjoy their own school experiences. This could be why so many of my HE friends are teachers. We were thoroughly invested in the idea of school education. Until it failed our own children.<br /><br />You really must stop reading a few select blogs of extremely odd people, Simon.<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-64982572999086223212013-01-19T08:20:07.285-08:002013-01-19T08:20:07.285-08:00"There are few female engineers and so I cann..."There are few female engineers and so I cannot help wondering if this is a man. If so, would go some way to explaining these terrible views."<br /><br />Why is gender relevant here?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-83377210096120962392013-01-19T08:08:56.169-08:002013-01-19T08:08:56.169-08:00Um, excuse me, Philosophy is NOT a non-subject. An...Um, excuse me, Philosophy is NOT a non-subject. And neither are Child Care or Nutrition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com