tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post5819585686784306854..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: HE-UK Message BoardSimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-27826303262705398382009-08-29T06:51:01.968-07:002009-08-29T06:51:01.968-07:00Gong back to something Amy said near the top of th...Gong back to something Amy said near the top of this...there is always a different view between new home-educators and those who have been doing it a while because the general public are not that aware of the issues and when they first start to HE, they see the local authority as mostly benign. After a while, it starts to sink in that we are under attack from a lot of people that do not want HE to develop and grow and are more interested in control than the education or welfare of our children. When the ones who haven't experienced this, state their agreement with the review, there is bound to be a backlash. Sorry, there is too much at stake and upsetting a few people is the least of our worries. Its not personal, we just want the concerns to be understood and taken seriously and acted on.Nataliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05375800833783505407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-38556432399398739112009-08-20T07:32:38.920-07:002009-08-20T07:32:38.920-07:00Simon wrote:
Me, a liar? Strong words indeed. Howe...Simon wrote:<br /><i>Me, a liar? Strong words indeed. However, you may have a point.</i><br /><br />I propose that you adopt this as your tagline.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-31683550994778227242009-08-20T06:54:29.105-07:002009-08-20T06:54:29.105-07:00Me, a liar? Strong words indeed. However, you may ...Me, a liar? Strong words indeed. However, you may have a point. Perhaps it was somewhat of an exaggeration for me to say that I am open minded about autonomous education. There is, after all, a difference between being open minded and empty headed. Sometimes in the heat of the moment I do say more than I mean. I'm not really open minded, more sceptical but open to being persuaded if evidence emerges.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-51462969351294915422009-08-20T02:37:23.551-07:002009-08-20T02:37:23.551-07:00Careful Simon, paranoia is setting in, I've ne...Careful Simon, paranoia is setting in, I've never been a member of HE-UK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-58756137964669439352009-08-20T01:37:59.837-07:002009-08-20T01:37:59.837-07:00As usual, once you're shown up as a liar you ...As usual, once you're shown up as a liar you go off on a tangent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-20012887644381053372009-08-20T01:10:32.541-07:002009-08-20T01:10:32.541-07:00Worm on a hook? Now that sounds familiar. Who was ...Worm on a hook? Now that sounds familiar. Who was it that described me so on the HE-UK board? Was it Black kite or Firebird.....Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-80373187791879555992009-08-20T00:48:07.263-07:002009-08-20T00:48:07.263-07:00He keeps wriggling, doesn't he? He's begin...He keeps wriggling, doesn't he? He's beginning to look like a worm on a hook.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-69177953731255694782009-08-20T00:14:50.185-07:002009-08-20T00:14:50.185-07:00In the Independent you wrote that autonomous educa...In the Independent you wrote that autonomous educators are "denying their children one of the most important rights that other children in this country enjoy; the right to a proper education."<br /><br />On this page you write "I am open minded about the possibility of autonomous education working".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-31335881060244712782009-08-19T23:46:40.276-07:002009-08-19T23:46:40.276-07:00If I say that painting a room without covering the...If I say that painting a room without covering the furniture is, "liable to be a messy operation", that is quite a different thing from saying that it, "will be a messy operation". I am pointing out that something is liable to lead to such and such result, not claiming that it is inevitable. You need not be a world class semanticist to grasp the difference.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-18645169297924938882009-08-19T23:05:10.393-07:002009-08-19T23:05:10.393-07:00Now that does seem like semantics.
When you writ...Now that does seem like semantics. <br /><br />When you write, <i>autonomous "education"</i> with quotes around education, does this mean that you think that autonomous education is education, or not...Sharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-53793067951961781392009-08-19T22:47:38.623-07:002009-08-19T22:47:38.623-07:00I said that it was liable to be scrappy and unbala...I said that it was liable to be scrappy and unbalanced. That is somewhat different from saying that it is scrappy and unbalanced.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-90596338019488459082009-08-19T14:49:33.484-07:002009-08-19T14:49:33.484-07:00"I am open minded about the possibility of au...<i>"I am open minded about the possibility of autonomous education working, although inclined to be a little sceptical."</i><br /><br />Then your articles must have been changed beyond recognition during editing because you expressed far more than a little scepticism.<br /><br /> <i>"You have mentioned research on the subject from North America and I have explained why I do not think this relevant to autonomous education."</i><br /><br />Despite quotes from the research that show that autonomous education is one of the styles included in the study and the choice of style made not difference to outcomes? Or perhaps you ignored those quotes, or decided I or they were lying, or what? What actually happens in your mind when you see evidence that contradicts your theories? Can you at least say why you think the quotes do not support my theory that the US research included autonomous education?<br /><br /><i>"Paula Rothermel's work did not focus upon autonomous education , although some of the thirty five children she examined in detail may have been AE."</i><br /><br />Not something I've ever claimed. You attempted to make the point that the reasons for HE given in the Rothermel study were different from those in the US study and because of this the US study is irrelevant You claimed that the good outcomes were probably a result of their particular interest in providing a better education than schools. I pointed out that the outcomes in the Rothermel were comparable to the US study, so the results did not support your theory.<br /><br /><i>"This leaves Alan Thomas. His work is very interesting, but he did not pretend that it was meant to test autonomous education's efficacy in any way, more exploring the whole idea."</i><br /><br />Case studies are an accepted form of research in medical as well as other fields and over 100 children is an extremely large case series. He explored the whole idea in great detail and at the very least proved that autonomous education can work. As you say, other research would need to look at how well autonomous education performs in larger representative groups, research such those seen in North American.<br /><br /><i>" When the work has been carried out, I shall make up my mind. There are simply not enough data to do so at the moment."</i><br /><br />But this isn't what you are say. You say that autonomous education is scrappy, unbalanced and causes incalculable damage to thousands of home educated children and should be stopped. Now you say there is no evidence to support you opinion. Like Badman you are happy to see the end of autonomous education without seeing evidence of failure.Sharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-42698103994389957722009-08-19T14:26:24.137-07:002009-08-19T14:26:24.137-07:00I am open minded about the possibility of autonomo...I am open minded about the possibility of autonomous education working, although inclined to be a little sceptical. You have mentioned research on the subject from North America and I have explained why I do not think this relevant to autonomous education. Paula Rothermel's work did not focus upon autonomous education , although some of the thirty five children she examined in detail may have been AE. This leaves Alan Thomas. His work is very interesting, but he did not pretend that it was meant to test autonomous education's efficacy in any way, more exploring the whole idea. His latest book only involved twenty six people. I am waiting for some large scale research on autonomous education. When the work has been carried out, I shall make up my mind. There are simply not enough data to do so at the moment.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-87596554065983966482009-08-19T14:17:29.301-07:002009-08-19T14:17:29.301-07:00"I don't believe for a moment that increa...<i>"I don't believe for a moment that increased scrutiny will spell the end of autonomous education."</i><br /><br />I don't really care what you believe, I know that we would not have been able to educate autonomously if the visits we had early on had continued, and this is before any of the planned changes to the definition of suitable. You may believe that autonomous education cannot or does not work despite plenty of research evidence to the contrary. You may be happy to see the back of it. But you shouldn't be surprised if home educators who have seen it work and know how good it can be for their children react against you when you suggest this.Sharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-36623474766867138022009-08-19T13:14:33.439-07:002009-08-19T13:14:33.439-07:00Sharon, I have not ignored your points. We simply ...Sharon, I have not ignored your points. We simply disagree! Every time that new regulation of this or that activity is introduced, various Cassandras appear who claim that this will mean the end of it. It is seldom true. We live in a world of increasing regulation and oversight of activities that in the past were just left alone. To take one example, childminding was twenty years ago a fairly relaxed and informal arrangement between two adults. It is now heavily regulated and controlled. This has certainly changed the nature of childminding; it has certainly not meant the end of it. I don't believe for a moment that increased scrutiny will spell the end of autonomous education.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-79238711877171476352009-08-19T13:14:14.881-07:002009-08-19T13:14:14.881-07:00I don't actually mind the accusation that my c...I don't actually mind the accusation that my children's education is likely to be "scrappy and unbalanced" because I don't think that's much of an accusation really. Everyone's education has gaps, I know mine has, in spite of plenty of qualifications. I like to think that my children's education is made of scraps of gold, in comparison to my own which, though it had scraps of gold in it, was largely porridge. Once I'd regurgitated it for the exam it was gone.<br /><br />I'm sure you can understand how people feel about your presence on home ed lists and the subsequent appearance of that TES piece. Whatever the editing, you called other people's belief in autonomous learning a "bizarre notion". It was disrespectful. I don't choose to home educate my children in the way that you have but I would certainly not write an article advocating state interference in your life to protect your child from your 'bizarre' beliefs.<br /><br />Perhaps Paula Rothermel is still on that list because she wouldn't write such things either? I don't know. But I'm sure you're not surprised to find yourself booted off. What you wrote wasn't nice and it wasn't necessary. But that's for you to live with.Alliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07432518528835330361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-55832691288459259272009-08-19T12:43:13.956-07:002009-08-19T12:43:13.956-07:00Firstly Allie, a thousand apologies for confusing ...Firstly Allie, a thousand apologies for confusing you with Ali Edgley. It was not that I did not have the nerve to say some of these things on the HE-UK site, rather that I felt that people were getting upset and thought that I was spoiling things for those who were getting some support. I have to say that I did have some very robust exchanges. I actually said that allowing a child to decide upon what to study might lead to a situation where the education "was liable to be scrappy and unbalanced". I was not being dogmatic about it. I still believe this to be the case. I have to say that I was unhappy with some of the editing on that piece.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-86624454289176248372009-08-19T12:36:04.728-07:002009-08-19T12:36:04.728-07:00Anonymous, these are the guidelines which I read b...Anonymous, these are the guidelines which I read before joining the HE-UK list;<br /><br />Membership is open to families who are home educating or are interested in home educating their children in the UK.<br />This list is not open to:<br />Anyone with a professional interest in home education. For example employees of: LEA's, Social services, government personal, medical personnel, workers or owners of private companies, the press or researchers. <br /><br />I might remark that a number of people, Paula Rothermel for example, are on this list with Mike Fortune-Wood's full knowledge and approval despite having clearly having a professional interest in home education. Others are on there who no longer home educate. I do not think that writing the occasional article makes me a member of the press; others may disagree.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-53875441410461077122009-08-19T12:35:30.112-07:002009-08-19T12:35:30.112-07:00I'm not Ali Edgley! I'm another Allie. I...I'm not Ali Edgley! I'm another Allie. I don't use my surname on the internet but I live in Brighton. You can get to my blog from my profile if you have any doubts about that.<br /><br />You may well be right that someone writing in support of autonomous education wouldn't have met with the same response. But, then again, they probably wouldn't have been expressing doubts about the vaildity of other people's choices in home education. The point is not that you wanted to promote your family's particular style but that you wanted to question the appropriateness of other people's. It's not surprising that those people were upset by your conversing with them on e-mail lists about their educational approach and then writing an article for the TES accusing them of providing a 'scrappy' education. If you didn't have the nerve to say such a thing on the lists then it does look rather unpleasant to say it in the press for personal gain.Alliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07432518528835330361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-32039942943066546502009-08-19T11:23:56.686-07:002009-08-19T11:23:56.686-07:00Simon said,
"Sharon, there is a difference be...Simon said,<br /><i>"Sharon, there is a difference between recommending the removal of choice, which I did not do and recommending closer scrutiny of a choice, which I did.</i><br /><br />You have dismissed autonomous education as scrappy, unbalanced and causing incalculable damage to thousands of home educated children. You have also argued for the LA to have access to the home and the right to interview the child in order to safeguard the rights of the child to a 'proper education' that you believe autonomous home educators are denying them. How can you say you are not recommending the removal of the choice to educate autonomously? <br /><br />You are yet to provide any evidence for the need to monitor home educators, any evidence that inspections will achieve their stated aims or that this approach is safe and will not cause more harm than it prevents. Why do you continue to ignore these points?Sharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-71719598828717245062009-08-19T11:00:11.198-07:002009-08-19T11:00:11.198-07:00It does not mention the press, it says journalist....It does not mention the press, it says journalist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-21897710347036370532009-08-19T10:45:41.377-07:002009-08-19T10:45:41.377-07:00Sharon, there is a difference between recommending...Sharon, there is a difference between recommending the removal of choice, which I did not do and recommending closer scrutiny of a choice, which I did.<br /><br />Anonymous, the HE-UK list says that the press are not allowed to join it. I hardly think that somebody who knocks out occasional bits for the papers counts as "the press"! My main work is with disabled children and as a home educator. A number of the people on HE-UK write odd pieces for magazines and give interviews, including Mike Fortune-Wood. There would be something in what you say if I were a reporter.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-44468389091123465862009-08-19T10:16:26.072-07:002009-08-19T10:16:26.072-07:00You say you read the sign up page carefully when y...You say you read the sign up page carefully when you joined HE-UK. How did you miss the bit that says journalists are not allowed to join?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-26748223533652982322009-08-19T09:04:14.886-07:002009-08-19T09:04:14.886-07:00Simon said,
"Or is it OK if you will be endor...Simon said,<br /><i>"Or is it OK if you will be endorsing auonomous education?"</i><br /><br />I think it is OK if your actions are not aimed at, or likely cause, limits to the freedoms of others to provide the education they consider most suitable for their children for no good reason. EO has not been immune from criticism in this respect so you are in good company. Can you really claim not to be able to tell the difference between the two actions, support and recommending the removal of choice for no good reason?Sharonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-1945253350865454692009-08-19T07:09:26.090-07:002009-08-19T07:09:26.090-07:00To answer Allie's point, regardless of her ide...To answer Allie's point, regardless of her identity about which I may well be wrong, it might perhaps have been polite to mention that these articles were coming out and yet until they were actually published I didn't know whether the papers were going to use them at all. That's how it works sometimes with freelance stuff. Besides which, the first that many people on the EO list knew about Ann Newstead's husband appearing on youtube was when Fiona Nicholson announced it as it became available. You are surely not suggesting that she should have told eveybody well before hand waht was happening and given an outline of the contents? That sounds crazy to me. I can think of a number of examples of people like Ann Newstead giving interviews and so on without any advance notice. Or is it OK if you will be endorsing auonomous education?Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.com