tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post776832948721726304..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: A possible motive for not teaching a childSimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-54008907019475594782010-09-12T14:26:56.237-07:002010-09-12T14:26:56.237-07:00'which is better a state school education or a...'which is better a state school education or a private education Webb? yea or no will do my guess is you wont say'<br /><br />I am in favour of home education and not at all keen on schools. I understood that you were educating your son at home and cannot see what private education has to do with the case.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-39074887470640458862010-09-12T14:23:56.524-07:002010-09-12T14:23:56.524-07:00' you'll discover that he says he can only...' you'll discover that he says he can only comment on children up to 11 or 12, i.e. primary-level education. I would agree with him that informal learning is perfectly serviceable until then.'<br /><br />I can't see anything like that. Which page is this on? I have to say that Thomas does not seem to offer muh evidence for the benefits of this style of education beyond the age of three or four. He mentions Tizzard and Hughes, which is good evidence for the advantages of conversation with small children. He then goes on to say;<br /><br />' Little is known about how far conversation might continue to offer the same benfits afetr reaching school age'. this sums it up!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-2630681721153976982010-09-12T12:58:10.252-07:002010-09-12T12:58:10.252-07:00Or even informal learning, as Thomas calls it. Sor...Or even informal learning, as Thomas calls it. Sorry, typing this while informally helping child learn French!Clairenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-78145446473770821702010-09-12T12:56:33.762-07:002010-09-12T12:56:33.762-07:00I should have said, you're confusing purposive...I should have said, you're confusing purposive *conversation* with unstructured education.Clairenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-25695377277878637792010-09-12T12:50:39.620-07:002010-09-12T12:50:39.620-07:00Re Alan Thomas, I think if you read the intro, you...Re Alan Thomas, I think if you read the intro, you'll discover that he says he can only comment on children up to 11 or 12, i.e. primary-level education. I would agree with him that informal learning is perfectly serviceable until then.<br /><br />Most of our education continued informally after that, including learning some Russian and Japanese and robotics. The main formal teaching involved in our home education has been via the OU. As the parent, I have been the facilitator of that study, not the teacher.Shena Deucharshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07512064110860817197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-79851967677693917062010-09-12T12:48:39.818-07:002010-09-12T12:48:39.818-07:00'the claim here is that simple conversation wi...'the claim here is that simple conversation with parents and others, unplanned and haphazard, can give a child a perfectly well rounded education at least as good as that furnished by school.'<br /><br />You're confusing purposive education with unstructured education; that's a bit like confusing a set of wheels with a whole car. The claim is that unstructured education can do this, not purposive conversation alone.Clairenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-32469711521045829352010-09-12T12:22:10.536-07:002010-09-12T12:22:10.536-07:00which is better a state school education or a priv...which is better a state school education or a private education Webb? yea or no will do my guess is you wont sayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-87018056310066533362010-09-12T12:17:01.475-07:002010-09-12T12:17:01.475-07:00I said: 'God forbid that anyone should value t...I said: 'God forbid that anyone should value the building of happy relationships and mutual respect over the acquisition of a set sequence of facts!'<br /><br />Simon replied: 'I am far from convinced that these are mutually exclusive goals!'<br /><br />Indeed. But, you know what, I reckon it's perfectly possible to be a 'friend and companion' as well as a 'parent and teacher'. Perhaps the difference between us is that I don't see the need for the teacher role to exclude that of friend and companion.Alliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11321428226929318418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-11220575910825256042010-09-12T09:07:27.010-07:002010-09-12T09:07:27.010-07:00"The difference really is not between 'im..."The difference really is not between 'imposing' and not 'imposing' teaching, but between planned and effective teaching and haphazard and random teaching."<br /><br />Ruling out "effective", for that is surely what we are meant to be talking about here and is therefore a circular argument, is the difference between "planned" and "haphazard" really more important than imposed (coerced) or unimposed (autonomous) learning? <br /><br />If so, upon what argument or evidence do you base this assertion?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-62505508293196444122010-09-12T07:28:50.128-07:002010-09-12T07:28:50.128-07:00'God forbid that anyone should value the build...'God forbid that anyone should value the building of happy relationships and mutual respect over the acquisition of a set sequence of facts!'<br /><br />I am far from convinced that these are mutually exclusive goals!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-4777426654913326072010-09-12T07:28:04.803-07:002010-09-12T07:28:04.803-07:00"'You should read about what Alan Thomas ..."'You should read about what Alan Thomas calls the 'informal curriculum'! This is precisely how he thinks children can learn.' <br /><br />Of course children can learn this way. I don't recall Alan Thomas claiming that they can learn *everything* they need to equip them for future life, though." <br /><br />I have Thomas' books in front of me. Looking at his most recent, How Children Learn at Home, 2007, he says on page 141;<br /><br />'How do those whose learning is informal acquire an education on a par with that provided by schools but with very little of the structure associated with learning at school.'<br /><br />He goes on to claim that conversation with parents over the course of everyday life can, without 'curriculum, planned teaching, structured lessons or even clear goals' allow children to learn as much as those who have been to school. In other words, the claim here is that simple conversation with parents and others, unplanned and haphazard, can give a child a perfectly well rounded education at least as good as that furnished by school.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-70589531701431388052010-09-12T05:45:18.179-07:002010-09-12T05:45:18.179-07:00God forbid that anyone should value the building o...God forbid that anyone should value the building of happy relationships and mutual respect over the acquisition of a set sequence of facts!Alliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11321428226929318418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-45417968706257834692010-09-12T05:01:02.771-07:002010-09-12T05:01:02.771-07:00"This is just the sort of information which a..."This is just the sort of information which adults often dispense gratuitously. Nor did she ask me to teach her how to make a bow and arrow or explain about ploughing and crop rotation."<br /><br />But did you ask her what she wanted to learn, ever? Did you ever say: "Do you want to know more about this?" and allow her to say no, and did you stop "dispensing information gratuitously" if she did?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-73670308502549533642010-09-12T04:40:35.329-07:002010-09-12T04:40:35.329-07:00'You should read about what Alan Thomas calls ...'You should read about what Alan Thomas calls the 'informal curriculum'! This is precisely how he thinks children can learn.' <br /><br />Of course children can learn this way. I don't recall Alan Thomas claiming that they can learn *everything* they need to equip them for future life, though.Clairenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-71740766764721753502010-09-12T04:17:53.286-07:002010-09-12T04:17:53.286-07:00'Do you think people are incapable of rigorous...'Do you think people are incapable of rigorous study unless they've been 'trained' in it from early childhood? Do you believe that rigorous study is the most important skill for children to learn? And are you suggesting that it is impossible to educate children properly without making them do things things they don't want to do? '<br /><br />No, no and yes, probably.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-85439500539937795982010-09-12T04:16:26.230-07:002010-09-12T04:16:26.230-07:00'Is anyone actually claiming that a child acqu...'Is anyone actually claiming that a child acquires all that is necessary to equip her for her future life by means of casual conversation while roaming through the forest and fields?'<br /><br />You should read about what Alan Thomas calls the 'informal curriculum'! This is precisely how he thinks children can learn.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-64078858054299527282010-09-12T04:15:14.531-07:002010-09-12T04:15:14.531-07:00' imposed that teaching on her?'
Excellen...' imposed that teaching on her?'<br /><br />Excellent expression! The difference really is not between 'imposing' and not 'imposing' teaching, but between planned and effective teaching and haphazard and random teaching.<br /><br />My daughter did not ask at the age of five or six to be taught the difference between an oak leaf and a beech. This is just the sort of information which adults often dispense gratuitously. Nor did she ask me to teach her how to make a bow and arrow or explain about ploughing and crop rotation. Throughout all our exploration of the countryside, there was just as much teaching taking place as if she had been sitting staring at a blackboard. This is what some refer to as 'purposive conversation'. It is actually teaching. As far as I am able to apprehend, it is fine to teach a child by voluntering inforamtion in this way, but to sit her down at a table and tell her stuff is a different ball game entirely. I have no idea what the difference is between these two activities, other than the fact that one can be tricked out as not teaching.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-90742357132962179182010-09-12T03:55:16.313-07:002010-09-12T03:55:16.313-07:00Do you think people are incapable of rigorous stud...Do you think people are incapable of rigorous study unless they've been 'trained' in it from early childhood? Do you believe that rigorous study is the most important skill for children to learn? And are you suggesting that it is impossible to educate children properly without making them do things things they don't want to do? <br /><br />I was trained rigorously in academic study and in music. My parents' expectation was that I would either pursue a career which required a high level of academic qualifications, or become a professional musician. I enjoyed playing music and studying certain subjects, but the rigorous training put me off completely. I was an extremely rebellious teenager. I have not played music for 30 years, and I have never used my qualifications. I had a successful career in the creative arts, for which I was completely unqualified beyond barely scraping a pass in O level Art. <br /><br />I know a couple of people who did very badly at school and left as soon as they could (or much sooner, in one case!) who are doing OU degrees and getting around 90% for every assignment. <br /><br />I know some young people who were autonomously home educated, never 'trained' to study rigorously, and are now doing university degrees.<br /><br />I could conclude from my personal experience that training in rigorous study will almost certainly put a child off for life, and that persistent truanting from the age of 12 is better preparation for future academic success.Clairenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-1503580696294193682010-09-12T01:51:29.987-07:002010-09-12T01:51:29.987-07:00Is anyone actually claiming that a child acquires ...Is anyone actually claiming that a child acquires all that is necessary to equip her for her future life by means of casual conversation while roaming through the forest and fields?<br /><br />Paleolithic hunters were skilled toolmakers; perfecting the technique to make a good flint arrowhead or axe would have taken hundreds, if thousands of hours of practice. If one was a paleolithic hunter, one would have had considerable incentive to learn to make good tools because without them one would be likely to starve/not have any clothes to wear.<br /><br />It doesn't follow that casual conversation while roaming through the forest and fields doesn't have a place in education. Many ideas that have changed the world have been formulated in exactly those circumstances. But in my experience, left to their own devices, most children's curiosity gets the better of them, and they end up spending hours on the internet or with their heads stuck in books looking for answers, or asking endless questions during the casual conversation while roaming through the forest and fields that require some pretty robust research when one gets home.<br /><br />You cannot conclude, because you trained your daughter to sit down quietly at a table for an hour at a time and study one subject rigorously, that she wouldn't have done so of her own accord eventually, nor that she had to do that to learn what she did. As CS Lewis reminds us, we will never know what might have happened.suzygnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-57141658722407123402010-09-12T01:32:19.046-07:002010-09-12T01:32:19.046-07:00Do you ever wonder what choices Simone might have ...Do you ever wonder what choices Simone might have made, or be making now, if you hadn't imposed that teaching on her?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com