tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post9058083087516195809..comments2024-03-20T00:30:11.702-07:00Comments on Home Education Heretic: Parenting styles of home educatorsSimon Webbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-56900761861366535182010-08-18T02:49:50.870-07:002010-08-18T02:49:50.870-07:00"Mind you, if I told you that reading your co..."Mind you, if I told you that reading your comments made me feel nauseous, I have an idea that you would be a bit put out!"<br /><br />Yet you say far worse about autonomous educators and are surprised at their reactions? But then maybe not. Most of your blog seems aimed at winding autonomously educating parents up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-80096987554183500422010-08-17T23:25:32.051-07:002010-08-17T23:25:32.051-07:00I'm only engaging in a little teasing, Mrs Ano...I'm only engaging in a little teasing, Mrs Anon, not seriously accusing you or anybody else of sexism. Mind you, if I told you that reading your comments made me feel nauseous, I have an idea that you would be a bit put out!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-63249226705290356392010-08-17T23:08:59.247-07:002010-08-17T23:08:59.247-07:00Simon.
I did not call your methods nauseous, or ...Simon. <br /><br />I did not call your methods nauseous, or you nauseous at all. I said my initial reaction to your description was to FEEL nauseous. That means it says something about ME not you. I also immediately went on to explain that I thought we all did this anyway to a strong degree and we'd be fooling ourselves to claim that we didn't.<br /><br />Sexist? Mmmm...I don't think so. Two of the strongest influences on my mothering style were 'Raising your child, not by force but by love' by Sidney D Craig and stuff by William Sears ('Nightime Parenting' etc) as well as some women writers. <br /><br />Sadly, I couldn't look to my parents' eg because they were useless, so I had to find out for myself how to do the whole parenting thing.<br /><br />Mrs AnonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-21634104179232009642010-08-17T18:07:38.750-07:002010-08-17T18:07:38.750-07:00We actually learnt, whilst living with the dire la...We actually learnt, whilst living with the dire lack of homeschoolers in Italy and Germany, that people who have wildly different styles of home education can still find common ground. The only homeschooling mother (Lynn, who came from America) I knew in Italy was a self-declared "unschooler", whilst I was an "eclectic homeschooler". Since then, I'd say we've swopped places, with her sons doing a lot of academics to prepare themselves for college and mine...well, he's started studying to prepare for his learner's driving test.Rinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09619473098124504880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-75153666614407115202010-08-17T17:59:26.677-07:002010-08-17T17:59:26.677-07:00Pleasure, Sarah. We seem to have a lot in common. ...Pleasure, Sarah. We seem to have a lot in common. I'll soon be the same age as you...and the incident with the game boy and the duvet took place when we were living in Varese...to be more precise, in a little village called Malgesso about 20 minutes from the city.Rinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09619473098124504880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-60638285693832211682010-08-17T16:24:17.062-07:002010-08-17T16:24:17.062-07:00"For instance, there is a discussion thread o..."For instance, there is a discussion thread on setting boundaries here http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/boundaries-and-unschooling-as"<br /><br />Great discussion, scatty, thanks for the link.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-77126009839376144462010-08-17T15:20:08.130-07:002010-08-17T15:20:08.130-07:00" I was not being sexist. "
I don't..." I was not being sexist. "<br /><br />I don't think any of us who found that the initial description "didn't speak to us" are being sexist per se. Just hearing what may be distant thunder of a change that is coming.<br /><br />The language of child rearing is geared to the feminine. The terms, the explanations, the packaging if you will, has to be. Or we won't buy it or buy into it, because it does not "speak to us". So the feminine description is what is perceived as “right” or “natural”. Cos that is the mass market where the money is.<br /><br /><br />As fathers become ever more involved as team, co or sole parents I think we are going to see a shift in how language is altered so the info/product "speaks to them" too, on a first person basis. They will likely become less tolerant of needing to have to do an internal translation when consuming or regurgitating as their voice becomes less rare.<br /><br /><br />If that happens I think that means we (women) may have to make a shift too, in the acceptance of their (odd to us) different ..way of looking at things, way of talking about things when it comes to bringing up baby, minus the “It’s a baby, not a bloody potato clock” attitude.<br /><br /><br />I'm not a big expert on men talking about parenting, cos mine just grunts at me and mutters about being knackered enough from doing it and not having any energy left to talk about it too .... especially when Inter is playing.<br /><br />But I'd guess what sounds "natural" to us might be rather "unnatural" for them if they have to apply it to themselves in the first person, rather than the more traditional viewing of it as second hand, as being what "mothers are supposed to do/be/think/feel”.<br /><br />And potentially what cropped up in the last couple of posts, is that the same thing works vice versa.<br /><br />I think we may see some interesting changes in how the language|vision of child rearing expresses itself, the images it uses and how analytical (dare I say...clinical) it becomes, as men become ever more involved in the process.<br /><br />I don't think it really matters if the difference between genders’ visions of “what is a natural parent” is caused by social constructs, or just is what it is. The money men will make sure that "info" is available in "man speak" just as soon as there is a big enough market for it.<br /><br />Bloody hell I want to go to bed, not post all night. Will you all stop saying stuff that makes me think, cos it is disturbing my ability to consume vast amounts of crap telly in peace without my head wittering quietly in the background . I completely did not follow Defying Gravity tonight and it’s all your lot's fault. LOLTEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-63615375427284368672010-08-17T12:59:20.340-07:002010-08-17T12:59:20.340-07:00@scatty
Love the link, that is my evening's r...@scatty<br /><br />Love the link, that is my evening's reading sorted for the night.<br /><br />Ta mucho !TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-53677794603002934612010-08-17T12:57:34.237-07:002010-08-17T12:57:34.237-07:00"seeking out a specific piece of behaviour mo..."seeking out a specific piece of behaviour modification theory used in therapeutic contexts and applying it strictly to achieve specific behaviours."<br /><br />Well, that's the naughty step out then! (Not, I hasten to add, that this was a technique that I applied myself 'to achieve specific behaviours')Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-42359611257078397752010-08-17T12:45:55.052-07:002010-08-17T12:45:55.052-07:00I do not wish to indulge in name-calling. I was no...I do not wish to indulge in name-calling. I was not being sexist. <br /><br />For the last time: I see a difference between 1) gaining a variety of information and advice from hither and yon and creating a personal mode of child-rearing; and 2) seeking out a specific piece of behaviour modification theory used in therapeutic contexts and applying it strictly to achieve specific behaviours.<br /><br />I understood Simon to have said that he fell into the second case.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14844482732787787642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-12827000726386020052010-08-17T12:35:00.852-07:002010-08-17T12:35:00.852-07:00"The idea that I (and others) find repellant ..."The idea that I (and others) find repellant is that of a parent deliberately setting out to treat their child like a test subject or patient and consciously applying a technique that involves, at some level, a distortion of the natural parent-child relationship. "<br /><br />Which as Sarah points out, disposes of everybody from Penelope Leach to Maria Montessori. Hands up anybody reading this who has ever taken advice from any person or book on how to cope with sleeping or feeding problems in a baby? Whoa guys, better back off! You don't want to be 'consciously applying a technique that involves, at some level, a distortion of the natural parent-child relationship.'<br /><br />Get a grip! Every parent does this regularly. What's the difference? Ooh, ooh, I know the answer to this one. It is sub-conscious sexism. When a mother takes advice from another woman about how to raise a baby, that's not a ' distortion of the natural parent-child relationship'. When a father follows the advice of a man, there is something sinsiter and just plain wrong about it. It is 'repelent', nauseous', 'abhorrent' and 'distasteful'. Good job I'm not the sort of guy to get upset by a bit of sexism.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-60565569642552750012010-08-17T11:30:42.393-07:002010-08-17T11:30:42.393-07:00"The idea that I (and others) find repellant ..."The idea that I (and others) find repellant is that of a parent deliberately setting out to treat their child like a test subject or patient and consciously applying a technique that involves, at some level, a distortion of the natural parent-child relationship. "<br /><br />that was my initial reaction too. "It's a baby, not a bloody potato clock"<br /><br />But then when I had time the think about it, look at the huge number of books by “experts” sold to expecting or new parents. <br /><br />It’s all research, sought with the idea of finding a (range of) technique(s) that will help them do the best by their kid. Most of the experts are just a stepping stone between us the end users and the men in labs with the rats, cos they repackage the research in terms that appeal to people with small, tiny babies, when they are knee deep in fluffy rabbits and pungent nappies. <br /><br />If he had been going deeply against the paternal grain, muttering "what happens if I do this ?"........ "hmmm, subject initiates self harming..interesting"......... "having altered parameters A and C to introduce concepts of bahdibahdiblah, self harming ceased. In order to control for confounding factors a cycle of reintroduction of previous parameters will be embarked upon to test the hypothesis for replication" then yes, that fits the vision of him becoming a man with a less hairy rat, rather than becoming a father.<br /><br />But back to reality, the only diff between Simon and most other parents is that he hopped over the media personality stepping stone and went straight to the man with the rats to seek out info that made sense to him on a daddy level.TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-50134508541684238532010-08-17T11:16:39.974-07:002010-08-17T11:16:39.974-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-74785254836068369832010-08-17T10:10:04.753-07:002010-08-17T10:10:04.753-07:00"It sounds like you have more in common with ..."It sounds like you have more in common with autonomous educators than you think."<br /><br />This afternoon I held the founding meeting of the Pavia HomeSchoolyEducaty Group at my house.<br /><br />I met my first ever live home educator in the flesh.<br /><br />She is an unschooler and I am not, we had a whale of a time (as did our collective four kids ranging from 18 months to ten) and I'm pretty sure we have far more in common than we don't.<br /><br />Labels are great shorthand, but they focus on differences and division. Whipped off the similarities come out to play.<br /><br />I'm in a home educatyschooly group !!!<br /><br />(whirls around excitedly like a four year old...and falls over with a 42 year old dizzy spell)TEFL Ninjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13660756490115614438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-39394787421744736702010-08-17T09:52:26.304-07:002010-08-17T09:52:26.304-07:00"A parenting style which imposes strong deman..."A parenting style which imposes strong demands upon the child to behave in accordance with the parents expectations seems to be psychologically the best and most healthy for children."<br /><br />Why constrain them by the limitations of the parents idea<br />This might help.<br />http://www.curi.us/1386-tcs-basics-3<br /><br />this too<br />http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=2<br /><br />I've found the thoughts and ideas of Alice Miller helpful to motivate me to implement those "popperian" ideas on fallibility and liberty in parenting that you are so dismissive of. You are right of course that Poppers theories are fallible. An AHE parent will of course be developing their own theory of learning and parenting and improving it as they make errors.<br /><br />The essence of this kind of parenting is that focusing on problem solving and the seeking of common preferences develops both learning skill and social ability.Elizabethnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-21579681132095316502010-08-17T09:04:17.370-07:002010-08-17T09:04:17.370-07:00"a distortion of the natural parent-child rel..."a distortion of the natural parent-child relationship."<br /><br />Is there such a thing as a natural parent-child relationship? Surely, we all look at our own parenting methods and call that the wise and good pattern by which to judge how others raise their children?Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-51850329944482008912010-08-17T09:02:05.425-07:002010-08-17T09:02:05.425-07:00"Under 16? Where did that come from?"
T..."Under 16? Where did that come from?"<br /><br />The Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885. I was using a modern perspective to get the idea across. I could have just said young children.Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-72104426620820882522010-08-17T08:52:54.970-07:002010-08-17T08:52:54.970-07:00"Throughout the Bible and also the characters..."Throughout the Bible and also the characters in books by the authors you mention is the assumption that children under the age of sixteen are expected to follow parental instructions. True, they don't always do so, but the underlaying theme is that this is the natural order of things."<br /><br />Under 16? Where did that come from? The ages of consent, majority and criminal responsibility have moved hither and yon over the centuries - if there were any such thresholds at all of course. The patriarchs' children were expected to obey their parents throughout their lifetime, and a recurring theme was the dilemma facing the child if the parent did something morally wrong. I believe Shakespeare might have dealt with the same issue. Injunctions to children to obey their parents arose because they frequently didn’t, as the Elisha story and others illustrate only too well.<br /><br />Austen or Dickens both questioned any assumption that children were expected to follow parental instructions, in that the parents in their novels could be intolerably cruel or bit batty.suzygnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-24684869184095839432010-08-17T08:29:48.088-07:002010-08-17T08:29:48.088-07:00No, I am not saying it is better to use a method i...No, I am not saying it is better to use a method inefficiently. I AM saying that all parents use operant conditioning. Researchers have a phrase for it because it is something that occurs naturally. Therapists deliberately build on this naturally occurring phenomenon and use it in developing structured treatments for undesirable conditions or delayed development. This involves the therapist (sometimes the parent) in systematic application of simulations of the natural phenomena. <br /><br />The idea that I (and others) find repellant is that of a parent deliberately setting out to treat their child like a test subject or patient and consciously applying a technique that involves, at some level, a distortion of the natural parent-child relationship.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14844482732787787642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-77824885393645148882010-08-17T08:21:09.899-07:002010-08-17T08:21:09.899-07:00" Views have ranged from the child being seen..." Views have ranged from the child being seen as a chattel, through to parents who would be very sympathetic to Rousseau. The Bible, Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens... all have described and commented on a range of parenting styles."<br /><br />Throughout the Bible and also the characters in books by the authors you mention is the assumption that children under the age of sixteen are expected to follow parental instructions. True, they don't always do so, but the underlaying theme is that this is the natural order of things. As for the Bible, just look at what happens to those cheeky kids in 2 Kings 2:24! One moment they're jeering at Elisha, shouting: 'Go up thou baldhead', next thing you know forty two of them have been eaten by bears. There's a moral tale for you about how children should behave!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-58142177686548483282010-08-17T08:01:06.907-07:002010-08-17T08:01:06.907-07:00"It was the conscious and deliberate use of o..."It was the conscious and deliberate use of operant conditioning from day one that I was repelled by.....<br /><br /> What I understood you to be saying is that you, in effective, laid out a programme and followed it in order to bring about specific behaviors (treating your daughter as an experiment, in a similar fashion to Piaget)."<br /><br />In other words, it is OK to use operant conditioning in a slipshod and haphazard way, but if it is undertaken systematically, then that is repulsive. Have I got that right? This is a curious perspective. It is fine to use a certain method, provided that it is not done efficiently!Simon Webbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10865289865412656573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-69199212572915505772010-08-17T07:50:06.343-07:002010-08-17T07:50:06.343-07:00"Throughout almost the whole of recorded hist..."Throughout almost the whole of recorded history parents have been in charge and children have pretty well been expected to do as they were told."<br /><br />Are you sure? My take is that throughout recorded history parenting methods have been a contentious issue. Views have ranged from the child being seen as a chattel, through to parents who would be very sympathetic to Rousseau. The Bible, Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens... all have described and commented on a range of parenting styles. I don't think any concluded that the principle of children 'doing as they are told' was either always adhered to or always desirable.suzygnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-89082432931210543792010-08-17T07:38:36.025-07:002010-08-17T07:38:36.025-07:00"Yes, however much we try to assert our autho..."Yes, however much we try to assert our authority, the truth is that every single thing we do with our children is really by cooperation. Even getting a child dressed cannot be accomplished without the child's agreement. I have told my daughter frankly that there is absolutely nothing that I can do to control her behaviour if she chooses to go against my wishes. This is clearly understood between us and has been for years. I am not so old that I cannot remember having girlfriends of seventeen whose fathers forbade me the house and banned their daughters from seeing me. It did not of course work, nor could it ever. All that happened was an elaborate web of deciet as they pretended to be visiting a friends houses to revise for A levels. I am not about to start that particular game with my daughter; I don't think my nerves would stand it! "<br /><br />It sounds like you have more in common with autonomous educators than you think. This was exactly what motivated me to abandon all pretence of controlling my children. We told our eldest, then 9 year old son, that he couldn't play his gameboy in the morning and I caught him playing it one morning under his duvet. I was flooded with the memories of how I deceitfully got around my father's attempts to exert control on me and did exactly the things he wanted to prevent (such as nearly falling pregnant at the age of 16, hanging around with a bunch of drug addict bikers and so on) and vowed then and there that I wasn't going to have that kind of relationship with my children. <br /><br />Focusing on one's child's needs and not saying "no" too often do not preclude clear guidance. I think that some unschooling parents misinterpret this to mean that children must be allowed to run wild and infringe others' rights and personal property. Some of the discussions on the radical unschoolers network discussion forum shed light on this issue. For instance, there is a discussion thread on setting boundaries here http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/boundaries-and-unschooling-asRinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09619473098124504880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-76311386425207296242010-08-17T07:25:57.821-07:002010-08-17T07:25:57.821-07:00The conversation has moved on rather but, Simon, I...The conversation has moved on rather but, Simon, I did not mean to suggest it was "cold blooded of [you] to decide that [you] wanted a polite, well behaved, kind and industrious young person". It was the conscious and deliberate use of operant conditioning from day one that I was repelled by.<br /><br />I also had an idea of the outcome I wanted from child-rearing and I undoubtedly supplied positive and negative reinforcement (to the extent that all parents do - those terms are merely labels used by academics to describe behaviour). What I understood you to be saying is that you, in effective, laid out a programme and followed it in order to bring about specific behaviors (treating your daughter as an experiment, in a similar fashion to Piaget).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14844482732787787642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7881402584568285627.post-25577588087568649752010-08-17T05:57:38.580-07:002010-08-17T05:57:38.580-07:00Hmm, interesting. I had no such revelation with m...Hmm, interesting. I had no such revelation with my parents. I feel like I always knew. My parents were clear that we chose how to behave and had to deal with the consequences. I don't mean made up consequences like punishment - I mean the real consequences of upsetting people or making them happy.<br /><br />We were also a family that discussed power and control quite a lot.<br /><br />In fact, when I started school and disliked all the shouting, bossy adults, my mum pointed out to me that I could appear compliant but they would never know what I was thinking. Stood me in good stead.Alliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11321428226929318418noreply@blogger.com