Tuesday 18 August 2009
HE-UK Message Board
Having been chucked off this particular site a few weeks ago, it occurs to me that those still using it might not be aware that all their posts are being read by a psychologist who lurks on the site with Mike Fortune-Wood's full co-operation. I refer, of course, to the famous Paula Rothermel. She is not the only professional who belongs to this list. I thought I would let people know this as Mike Fortune-Wood makes a great show of forbidding any researchers or professionals from his list; it was on these grounds that I was myself hoofed off. It might make some users feel a little self conscious to realise that every word they write is being scrutinised by a psychologist. Even worse than having their posts read by a hack journalist perhaps.......
But isn't Paula a home educator? I know you are too, but you have demonstrated via your articles that you carried out research on lists. It's the use of email lists for research that is usually forbidden, rather than particular occupations. BTW, this is a common restriction on many email lists, no just home educator lists.
ReplyDeleteNo, Paula Rothermel is not a home educator. I did not carry out research on the lists either. Everything I used in those two notorious articles came from public websites available to anyone.
ReplyDeleteBy the way Sharon, I must point out that I had been a member of the HE-UK list since 2007. You surely don't think that it would take me two years to research a couple of short articles? Anyway, are you seriously saying that had I written an attack on Graham Badman and denounced him, then I would still have been thrown off? Of course not. I was chucked off because for agreeing with some of his views. What about Ann Newstead? She belongs to the HE-UK list and gives interviews to the media. Is she also guilty of using the list for research?
ReplyDeleteSo you felt capable of condemning a whole educational philosophy on the basis of reading a few web pages? Despite case studies in this country and large research studies in the US and Canada that show that autonomous education can and does work?
ReplyDeleteDoes Ann Newstead get paid for her interviews?
ReplyDeleteI sense somebody changing the subject..... Tell me, do you think that Ann Newstead should be chucked off the HE-UK list because she might inadvertantly have learned something on it which influenced what she said in a television interview?
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm afraid that Ann Newstead does get money for her interviews. EO pay her, I've seen an email from her on this subject.
ReplyDeleteNo. I think it is acceptable to chuck someone off who may use information gained for profit.
ReplyDeleteSo, you seem to be saying that if I had written a fierce attack on Graham Badman which everybody applauded. then I should still have been chuked off. Come, come, Sharon, you know that isn't true. What about Mr. Yallop who wrote opposing me in the TES. Are you really saying that he should now be thrown off the lists for writing an article about home education?
ReplyDeleteWell it is a support list. Maybe the members didn't feel you were very supportive?
ReplyDeleteHmmm, it is for discussion and support. I don't think you can deny that I discussed home education there! Also, I note that it is not open to those with a professional interest in home education, which would rather seem to exclude Paula Rothermel. I have a bit of a grudge about this, Sharon. I joined the list quite openly and never attempted to conceal my opinions. Had I wished to research, I could easily have started a Hotmail account and joined under a false name. I have had Mike Fortune-Wood telling people that I lied to get on there and all sorts of other nonsense.
ReplyDeleteI don’t see why you should be kicked for having a opinion seems like the usually thing, a rule for one, another for others.
ReplyDeleteThere is a divide in the home education community at the moment, over the past few months I have seen a dived happen in our community. I know several people who agree with several of the Badman points but are scared to voice for fear of been ostracized by the groups. I know one group where someone nearly lynched purely because she said “ I can see why they want to do home visits”
In those famous words of Bush “your either with us or against us”
Well he obviously wasn't kicked off for having a different opinion if he was there for 2 years. Unless he just agreed with everyone until the articles appeared?
ReplyDeleteGood point, Amy. Actually, when I was on the HE-UK and EO lists and said something that brought a storm of anger, not uncommon, I used to get emails offlist from people who agreed with me but did not want to post openly. I have seen people driven off both lists because they expressed views that did not follow the orthodox AE line. I have always liked the home education scene because one meets so many mad people, eccentrics and oddballs. People just like me in fact! I have noticed though that the established groups now seem to have a fairly rigid philosophy about a lot of things. I don't know how good that is. I used to like the diversity.
ReplyDeleteSharon .. This is what I mean two years Simon enjoyed, participated in discussion, I get that he might have wound a few people up, like he said he like the diversity.
ReplyDeleteBut the second he agreed with the report he was gone ....
This is the problem at the moment you cannot, dare not even remotely say anything positive about the Badman report [Well if you can] if you do then your removed from groups asked to leave Home Education meeting you end up being kicked from everything.
I just don’t understand why people are so hostile and unwilling to accept that to some people they think this report is good, is it my place to black list them or should I try and discuss and persuade them how bad the report is and bring them on board to swell the number against.
Simon wrote:
ReplyDeleteWhat about Mr. Yallop who wrote opposing me in the TES. Are you really saying that he should now be thrown off the lists for writing an article about home education?
I understand that this is hypothetical, but just for the record: I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the EO or HE-UK mailing lists.
Disagreeing with people on a list is a little different from disagreeing with them in a paid article in a national newspaper. He effectively campaigned for the Badman recommendations to come into force. As the Badman recommendations seek to reduce the freedoms of home educators, limit their educational choices and effectively end autonomous education, I'm surprised that either of you are surprised at the reaction. I've yet to see one good reason (supported by research and evidence) for anyone to support the recommendations. I've not seen anyone say that you shouldn't home educate in a structured way or attempt to limit your freedom to do so.
ReplyDeleteSimon said,
ReplyDelete"I joined the list quite openly and never attempted to conceal my opinions."
So when you joined the HE-UK list, you immediately informed the other list members that you were a journalist who also home educated his daughter? If I were to join the list today, I would be able to search the archives and find your message?
I am not primarily a journalist. I work part time for a registered charity which works with children with special educational needs. I also write for various newspapers and magazines. Parents who go on that HE-UK list do not very often go into their work background, they are discussing home education. I have no idea what most of them do for a living, nor was I ever interested. I certainly mentioned at various times that I wrote for newspapers and also that I worked with children with special needs. The subject actually came up pretty regularly because of the repeated and ludicrous accusations that I worked for an LEA. I joined as a home educator and checked Mike Fortune-Wood's criteria for being a member carefully. I have never made any secret of the journalism. The epithet "third rate, hack journalist" is actually taken from a post I made a long while back. I did not, by the way, mean to suggest that Jeremy Yallop was actually a member of this list, only that I suspect that he would be welcomed with open arms, despite writing about the subject in the TES.
ReplyDeletePerhaps it would have been polite to let people on the lists know that you were writing the articles and what their general tone would be?
ReplyDeleteI never read an email from you, on any list, like this, from your TES piece,
"Even if a child is enthusiastic about acquiring knowledge, their education is liable to be scrappy and unbalanced."
You asked some questions on lists about autonomous education, clearly questioning its value, but never actually stating what you thought. Then you revealed what you thought in the paper. You can't really be surprised if people felt a little angry, can you? They thought they were among friends (however vague that definition) and then they felt betrayed - not by your views but by the way you decided to share them with the national media without even giving a hint on the home ed lists where so many autonomous educators share aspects of their lives.
I don't, for one minute, believe that you were in the least bit surprised to find yourself thrown off lists for such behaviour.
I don't feel that keen on discussing this matter with you Allie until you have explained why you contacted a national newspaper and told lies about me. You said that I was a friend of Graham Badman, which is a lie and also that I had "infiltrated" home education lists; another lie. As I have already remarked, had I wished to research an article it would hardly have taken me two years. Had I wanted to conceal my identity I could have done so via a Hotmail account at the local library. I have always been very upfront about things. As soon as you have explained why you have told these and other lies about me, I shall be only to happy to chat with you.
ReplyDeleteGuess what: just as there is more than one Simon Webb in the world, there is more than one person with the name "Ali" or some homophone thereof.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous (not Ali or Allie)
Indeed so, but something about the style seems eerily familiar. Still, if I am wrong about this and Allie is a completely different person from Ali Edgley, I hope that she will accept my apologies! Tell me Anonymous, why did you jump to the conclusion that I was referring to somebody called Ali?
ReplyDeleteAnother point, Anonymous, is that "Allie" was posting from round the Colchester, Essex/Suffolk borders area. Now why does this location ring a bell with me? Oh yes, now I remember......
ReplyDeleteNo jumping was necessary. You have accused both Ali and Allie of precisely the same things.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Allie's point, regardless of her identity about which I may well be wrong, it might perhaps have been polite to mention that these articles were coming out and yet until they were actually published I didn't know whether the papers were going to use them at all. That's how it works sometimes with freelance stuff. Besides which, the first that many people on the EO list knew about Ann Newstead's husband appearing on youtube was when Fiona Nicholson announced it as it became available. You are surely not suggesting that she should have told eveybody well before hand waht was happening and given an outline of the contents? That sounds crazy to me. I can think of a number of examples of people like Ann Newstead giving interviews and so on without any advance notice. Or is it OK if you will be endorsing auonomous education?
ReplyDeleteSimon said,
ReplyDelete"Or is it OK if you will be endorsing auonomous education?"
I think it is OK if your actions are not aimed at, or likely cause, limits to the freedoms of others to provide the education they consider most suitable for their children for no good reason. EO has not been immune from criticism in this respect so you are in good company. Can you really claim not to be able to tell the difference between the two actions, support and recommending the removal of choice for no good reason?
You say you read the sign up page carefully when you joined HE-UK. How did you miss the bit that says journalists are not allowed to join?
ReplyDeleteSharon, there is a difference between recommending the removal of choice, which I did not do and recommending closer scrutiny of a choice, which I did.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, the HE-UK list says that the press are not allowed to join it. I hardly think that somebody who knocks out occasional bits for the papers counts as "the press"! My main work is with disabled children and as a home educator. A number of the people on HE-UK write odd pieces for magazines and give interviews, including Mike Fortune-Wood. There would be something in what you say if I were a reporter.
It does not mention the press, it says journalist.
ReplyDeleteSimon said,
ReplyDelete"Sharon, there is a difference between recommending the removal of choice, which I did not do and recommending closer scrutiny of a choice, which I did.
You have dismissed autonomous education as scrappy, unbalanced and causing incalculable damage to thousands of home educated children. You have also argued for the LA to have access to the home and the right to interview the child in order to safeguard the rights of the child to a 'proper education' that you believe autonomous home educators are denying them. How can you say you are not recommending the removal of the choice to educate autonomously?
You are yet to provide any evidence for the need to monitor home educators, any evidence that inspections will achieve their stated aims or that this approach is safe and will not cause more harm than it prevents. Why do you continue to ignore these points?
I'm not Ali Edgley! I'm another Allie. I don't use my surname on the internet but I live in Brighton. You can get to my blog from my profile if you have any doubts about that.
ReplyDeleteYou may well be right that someone writing in support of autonomous education wouldn't have met with the same response. But, then again, they probably wouldn't have been expressing doubts about the vaildity of other people's choices in home education. The point is not that you wanted to promote your family's particular style but that you wanted to question the appropriateness of other people's. It's not surprising that those people were upset by your conversing with them on e-mail lists about their educational approach and then writing an article for the TES accusing them of providing a 'scrappy' education. If you didn't have the nerve to say such a thing on the lists then it does look rather unpleasant to say it in the press for personal gain.
Anonymous, these are the guidelines which I read before joining the HE-UK list;
ReplyDeleteMembership is open to families who are home educating or are interested in home educating their children in the UK.
This list is not open to:
Anyone with a professional interest in home education. For example employees of: LEA's, Social services, government personal, medical personnel, workers or owners of private companies, the press or researchers.
I might remark that a number of people, Paula Rothermel for example, are on this list with Mike Fortune-Wood's full knowledge and approval despite having clearly having a professional interest in home education. Others are on there who no longer home educate. I do not think that writing the occasional article makes me a member of the press; others may disagree.
Firstly Allie, a thousand apologies for confusing you with Ali Edgley. It was not that I did not have the nerve to say some of these things on the HE-UK site, rather that I felt that people were getting upset and thought that I was spoiling things for those who were getting some support. I have to say that I did have some very robust exchanges. I actually said that allowing a child to decide upon what to study might lead to a situation where the education "was liable to be scrappy and unbalanced". I was not being dogmatic about it. I still believe this to be the case. I have to say that I was unhappy with some of the editing on that piece.
ReplyDeleteI don't actually mind the accusation that my children's education is likely to be "scrappy and unbalanced" because I don't think that's much of an accusation really. Everyone's education has gaps, I know mine has, in spite of plenty of qualifications. I like to think that my children's education is made of scraps of gold, in comparison to my own which, though it had scraps of gold in it, was largely porridge. Once I'd regurgitated it for the exam it was gone.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you can understand how people feel about your presence on home ed lists and the subsequent appearance of that TES piece. Whatever the editing, you called other people's belief in autonomous learning a "bizarre notion". It was disrespectful. I don't choose to home educate my children in the way that you have but I would certainly not write an article advocating state interference in your life to protect your child from your 'bizarre' beliefs.
Perhaps Paula Rothermel is still on that list because she wouldn't write such things either? I don't know. But I'm sure you're not surprised to find yourself booted off. What you wrote wasn't nice and it wasn't necessary. But that's for you to live with.
Sharon, I have not ignored your points. We simply disagree! Every time that new regulation of this or that activity is introduced, various Cassandras appear who claim that this will mean the end of it. It is seldom true. We live in a world of increasing regulation and oversight of activities that in the past were just left alone. To take one example, childminding was twenty years ago a fairly relaxed and informal arrangement between two adults. It is now heavily regulated and controlled. This has certainly changed the nature of childminding; it has certainly not meant the end of it. I don't believe for a moment that increased scrutiny will spell the end of autonomous education.
ReplyDelete"I don't believe for a moment that increased scrutiny will spell the end of autonomous education."
ReplyDeleteI don't really care what you believe, I know that we would not have been able to educate autonomously if the visits we had early on had continued, and this is before any of the planned changes to the definition of suitable. You may believe that autonomous education cannot or does not work despite plenty of research evidence to the contrary. You may be happy to see the back of it. But you shouldn't be surprised if home educators who have seen it work and know how good it can be for their children react against you when you suggest this.
I am open minded about the possibility of autonomous education working, although inclined to be a little sceptical. You have mentioned research on the subject from North America and I have explained why I do not think this relevant to autonomous education. Paula Rothermel's work did not focus upon autonomous education , although some of the thirty five children she examined in detail may have been AE. This leaves Alan Thomas. His work is very interesting, but he did not pretend that it was meant to test autonomous education's efficacy in any way, more exploring the whole idea. His latest book only involved twenty six people. I am waiting for some large scale research on autonomous education. When the work has been carried out, I shall make up my mind. There are simply not enough data to do so at the moment.
ReplyDelete"I am open minded about the possibility of autonomous education working, although inclined to be a little sceptical."
ReplyDeleteThen your articles must have been changed beyond recognition during editing because you expressed far more than a little scepticism.
"You have mentioned research on the subject from North America and I have explained why I do not think this relevant to autonomous education."
Despite quotes from the research that show that autonomous education is one of the styles included in the study and the choice of style made not difference to outcomes? Or perhaps you ignored those quotes, or decided I or they were lying, or what? What actually happens in your mind when you see evidence that contradicts your theories? Can you at least say why you think the quotes do not support my theory that the US research included autonomous education?
"Paula Rothermel's work did not focus upon autonomous education , although some of the thirty five children she examined in detail may have been AE."
Not something I've ever claimed. You attempted to make the point that the reasons for HE given in the Rothermel study were different from those in the US study and because of this the US study is irrelevant You claimed that the good outcomes were probably a result of their particular interest in providing a better education than schools. I pointed out that the outcomes in the Rothermel were comparable to the US study, so the results did not support your theory.
"This leaves Alan Thomas. His work is very interesting, but he did not pretend that it was meant to test autonomous education's efficacy in any way, more exploring the whole idea."
Case studies are an accepted form of research in medical as well as other fields and over 100 children is an extremely large case series. He explored the whole idea in great detail and at the very least proved that autonomous education can work. As you say, other research would need to look at how well autonomous education performs in larger representative groups, research such those seen in North American.
" When the work has been carried out, I shall make up my mind. There are simply not enough data to do so at the moment."
But this isn't what you are say. You say that autonomous education is scrappy, unbalanced and causes incalculable damage to thousands of home educated children and should be stopped. Now you say there is no evidence to support you opinion. Like Badman you are happy to see the end of autonomous education without seeing evidence of failure.
I said that it was liable to be scrappy and unbalanced. That is somewhat different from saying that it is scrappy and unbalanced.
ReplyDeleteNow that does seem like semantics.
ReplyDeleteWhen you write, autonomous "education" with quotes around education, does this mean that you think that autonomous education is education, or not...
If I say that painting a room without covering the furniture is, "liable to be a messy operation", that is quite a different thing from saying that it, "will be a messy operation". I am pointing out that something is liable to lead to such and such result, not claiming that it is inevitable. You need not be a world class semanticist to grasp the difference.
ReplyDeleteIn the Independent you wrote that autonomous educators are "denying their children one of the most important rights that other children in this country enjoy; the right to a proper education."
ReplyDeleteOn this page you write "I am open minded about the possibility of autonomous education working".
He keeps wriggling, doesn't he? He's beginning to look like a worm on a hook.
ReplyDeleteWorm on a hook? Now that sounds familiar. Who was it that described me so on the HE-UK board? Was it Black kite or Firebird.....
ReplyDeleteAs usual, once you're shown up as a liar you go off on a tangent.
ReplyDeleteCareful Simon, paranoia is setting in, I've never been a member of HE-UK.
ReplyDeleteMe, a liar? Strong words indeed. However, you may have a point. Perhaps it was somewhat of an exaggeration for me to say that I am open minded about autonomous education. There is, after all, a difference between being open minded and empty headed. Sometimes in the heat of the moment I do say more than I mean. I'm not really open minded, more sceptical but open to being persuaded if evidence emerges.
ReplyDeleteSimon wrote:
ReplyDeleteMe, a liar? Strong words indeed. However, you may have a point.
I propose that you adopt this as your tagline.
Gong back to something Amy said near the top of this...there is always a different view between new home-educators and those who have been doing it a while because the general public are not that aware of the issues and when they first start to HE, they see the local authority as mostly benign. After a while, it starts to sink in that we are under attack from a lot of people that do not want HE to develop and grow and are more interested in control than the education or welfare of our children. When the ones who haven't experienced this, state their agreement with the review, there is bound to be a backlash. Sorry, there is too much at stake and upsetting a few people is the least of our worries. Its not personal, we just want the concerns to be understood and taken seriously and acted on.
ReplyDelete