Thursday, 5 November 2009

Munchausen's by proxy and certain home educating parents

Over on the HE-UK list yesterday, Maire Stafford was trying to start a rumour that I was the one who persuaded Graham Badman that Paula Rothermel's research was flawed. I didn't of course, Paula met Badman before I did, but Ms. Stafford also mentioned a possible connection between Munchausen's by proxy and home education. This had not occurred to me before, but it started me thinking.

After looking into it a bit and reading the submissions made to the select committee, I see that Paula Rothermel says that Badman asked her whether she thought that some home educating parents suffered from Munchausen's by proxy. This might need a little explanation. Munchausen's of course is a psychological problem which causes healthy people to pose as injured or ill. Munchausen's by proxy is an even stranger and more disturbing condition where people try and make out that a child, disabled person or elderly relative is actually ill. Sometimes they can go as far as poisoning the victim in order to maintain the fiction. How might this tie in with home education?

I can, in a way, see what might have motivated Graham Badman to ask this question. An awful lot of home educating parents do seem to say that their children have special educational needs of one sort or another. Now I work in this field and I certainly know some children with disabilities who are being educated at home. I am not talking about these children. A blind child has a special need and this can easily be diagnosed and verified. Similarly the child with Down's; you only have to count the chromosomes to know what the problem is. Likewise congenital deformities such as spina bifida.

No, I am thinking of the home educating parents whose children apparently have some problem which makes it difficult for them to attend school, but cannot be diagnosed objectively as suffering from any recognised condition. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, also known as myalgic enchephalomyelitis or ME is a classic example of such a disorder. Diagnosis is dependent upon a cluster of symptoms and there are is seldom any physical evidence of disease. Indeed, many doctors deny that the syndrome even exists. ADHD is in the same category. Before people start going mad and asking whether I am saying that these disorders do not exist, I wish to make it clear that I am saying no such thing. Only that it is often hard to decide if somebody has them or not. There is no reliable test for such things. Curiously, it is these very same, hard to identify problems which seem so prevalent among home educated children.

One wonders whether it is at least possible that some parents could be diagnosing their children with vague disorders like CFS, ME and ADHD and then giving this as a reason why their children cannot leave them to go to school. I do not say that it is so, only that I think that this might be what Graham Badman had in mind. I cannot deny that I have myself been astonished at the range and variety of obscure illnesses which some home educated children suffer from. I also find it curious to observe a number of cases where mother and child are both apparently afflicted with the same type of odd, possibly psychosomatic difficulty. The thought has certainly crossed my mind that this might be some kind of folie a deux.

I shall probably post more about this in a week or two. Until Maire Stafford drew my attention towards it, the idea had honestly never occurred to me. Still, now that I do think about it, I can see that it might tie in with a particular type of home educating parent. I doubt that these represent a large proportion of home educators, but there are perhaps enough of them to make a sub-set well worth examining.


  1. Just for the record, Maire is a lady who deserves a lot more respect than you have just shown.
    She has more wisdom than you could ever hope for.

  2. It obviously applies to a 'particular type of parent', home-educating or otherwise. I've met one HE'ing parent who might fit the category of Munchausens in the last 15 years, but then I'm not a medical professional, so it would be just a hunch. No one with the proxy version though, thankfully.

    However, I think you are looking at this through somewhat prejudiced eyes, Simon.

    You don't think much of some medical conditions which are hard to diagnose (I'm glad you left off ASD from your list this time, BTW!) so you doubt their existance. Therefore the parents must be suspect for imagining their kids are ill, therefore you conclude it's possible they have MBP. Therefore, Badman's question to Rothermel was reasonable.

    But let's try looking at it from a different perspective. Parent takes child to school. School is awful, child doesn't thrive. It transpires, over time, that the child 'may' have some health issue which makes it difficult for the school to deal with, so concerned and exasperated parents remove child to home educate.

    BTW, this is the exact scenario which occurred for us. Dd's condition was much later officially conformed as autism (notoriously difficult to diagnose in girls for all sorts of complex reasons.)

    The parent is simply being responsible, considerate, compassionate and loving, yet is now apprently under suspcicion for having a mental disorder: Munchausen's By Proxy.

    This all takes me back to the days of my PGCE training when we had a whole afternoon's training on autism and school phobia. Fortunately, they were quickly dealt with by the professors of education in my university thus: autism? Caused by refridgerator mothers OR just a posh word for retarded. School phobia? Ah, caused by overweight, agoraphobic mothers. Child just needs to be separated from the mother and they will miraculously love school again. See? wasn't that easy. (And such fun too!)

    Now let's do ME and ADHD...

    Mrs Anon

  3. Anonymous, I said nothing abot Maire Stafford's wisdom; simply that she was intent upon spreading malicious rumours about me. I dare say even wise people do sly and underhanded things like that from time to time.

  4. Chronic fatigue syndrome is not the same as ME; ME is a much more specific group of conditions that includes characteristic muscle weakness. You are clearly unfamiliar with Judy Mikovitz's recent findings in relation to viral infections and ME. CFS is a catch-all diagnosis (and it is a diagnosis) for any chronic fatigue-related condition the origins of which cannot be identified. My daughter was heading for a diagnosis of CFS until a paediatrician did the appropriate blood test for Epstein-Barr (there are several tests, each applicable at a different time during the course of the infection) and found that she had had glandular fever. In addition, a GP identified a dairy intolerance. My daughter is currently being investigated for possible complications as a result of having a chronic, undetected EBV infection. It is clear that she did not have the 'fabricated' illness previously suggested, nor was she reluctant to go to school for 'psychological reasons'.

    Physical evidence is often present, but not looked for, because diagnosis in the NHS is currently dependent on treatments available, rather than identification of cause. What's the point of going through a long expensive diagnostic procedure, if there are no resources to treat the patient at the end of it?

    I'm afraid the denial of the existence of a condition by doctors carries little weight. Arguments of this kind have been advanced many times and been proven wrong.

    I agree that it is often hard to decide whether a patient has a condition or not. That does not mean that the default diagnosis should be MSBP or any other equally opaque 'mental' condition applied to the child or the parent.

    The whole human race suffers from a wide range of obscure illnesses. It is what you would expect in any organism with a complex genome. It is hardly surprising that mother and child are afflicted with the same type of 'odd' (in your view) possibly psychosomatic, possibly physical, difficulty, because, believe it or not, parents and children share genetic material. This might indeed be some kind of folie a deux. On the other hand it might be la folie de grandeur on the part of the NHS and education system in presuming that they can discount the self-reports of patients and/or parents as being flawed by default.

  5. Mrs. Anon, until Maire Stafford linked my name to this idea, it had never occurred to me that anybody had made the suggestion that some home educating parents might be displaying signs of Munchausen's by proxy! I am simply musing out loud about it and trying to see where Graham Badman might have been coming from.

  6. I think he was either coming from:

    1. A position of idly speculating on the best way of smearing us to weaken our position; or

    2. A position of shockingly institutionalised ignorance in which he couldn't conceive that anyone would want to keep their child out of school unless they were mentally ill.

    Take your pick. They both indicate that he was the wrong man for the job. (Or the right one, depending on whether you're in favour of home education or not.)

  7. Suzyg, as I said above, until Maire Stafford accused me of being behind this idea, I had never even heard of it! I am simply trying to see why Grham Badman should have asked this question and see if we can make some sense of it. Please bear in mind that it was not I who started this train of thought. When somebody suggests that I hold certain views, as Maire Stafford did yesterday, the least I can do is look into the matter!

  8. Hi Simon, I guess I'm musing too. {g}

    The trouble is that Mr Badman seems to be coming from a point of considerable ignorance about Home Education with that question, based on the same sort of faulty, cursory training I had in my PGCE course.

    We were all surely hoping that someone with experience of modern education systems (Oxon and Kent?) would have been starting his investigations with less ignorance about Home Education.

    It's a bit like asking me to head up a government Review into the safety and efficiency of the space shuttle programme. I'd have to learn all about it first, since I am ignorant of the subject.

    Which begs the question, Why would a government ask me do do that in the first place? Wouldn't an astronautical engineer be a better person to ask to conduct the Review? (See, my ignorance of space travel is so vast, I have no idea if astronautical is a word.)Or even an ex-astronaut?

    And if I started my Review with the question, 'Do you think that space shuttle engineers have Paranoid Delusions?' I would deserve to be fired.

    Wouldn't I?

    Mrs Anon

  9. Anonymous, don't get me started on the subject of smears and idle speculations! It was in direct response to an attempt to smear me, made yesterday by Maire Stafford, that I began this thread. I don't know whether Grham Badman was talking about all home educators and suggesting that this was the only motive for withdrawing a child from school. Paula Rothermel's note does not make this clear. I would guess that he is talking only about some parents.

  10. Yes, it was certainly an odd question that Garham Badman asked Paula Rothermel; the trouble is that we have no idea as to whether he was even being serious...although it is in poor taste for a joke....
    As for the actual subject ie the incidence of fabricated conditions amongst home educated children... as I have said before there may be a higher incidnce of ASD, but that is where mainstream schools fail so miserably and so it is hardly surprising that there are more families with ASD amongst the home ed population than in the school population but I can see no evidence that the diagnosis are in any way imaginary. ADHD type disorders? Who knows? I do have a close friend with a child with this diagnosis and although it is easy to believe that he is merely a "naughty child" if you look at the other well behaved siblings and the calm and careful parenting of the mother, it is suggestive that there must be something more than bad behaviour going on, even though the actual issues may look similar from outside. So I think we shoud be careful to not leap to judgements!

    Don't know where Badman was coming from though...perhaps he had loads of letters telling him how various children couldn't/wouldn't cope with inspection etc and drew his own conclusions. After all, anyone reading some of the home ed forums may conclude at times that many hoeme educators have mental health issues!
    Actually I wonder if he had been doing just that!

  11. So, you were accused of holding the view that HE'ing parents have MBP? How bizarre.

    Sorry, I'm not on that list, so I don't always get the background to some of the stuff you post which is in reaction to that.

    Mrs Anon

  12. You know Mrs. Anon, the problem might be that some people automatically connect the word "education" with the word "school". They see the expression "home education", focus upon the word "education" and say to themselves, "Hmmm, education eh? Seems like we will need somebody with a schools background...." I am pretty sure this is what happened. Like you, I would not have gone about the review in such a way myself. If only the DCSF had asked me......

  13. "Anonymous, don't get me started on the subject of smears and idle speculations! It was in direct response to an attempt to smear me, made yesterday by Maire Stafford, that I began this thread."

    I'm not really interested in your silly spat with Maire - more about the fate of the 50,000+ home educating children in the UK, strange though that might seem.

    "I don't know whether Grham Badman was talking about all home educators and suggesting that this was the only motive for withdrawing a child from school. Paula Rothermel's note does not make this clear. I would guess that he is talking only about some parents."

    Paula's memo says:

    "His opening question was to ask me if home educating mothers suffered from Munchhausen's by Proxy."

    Her choice of wording suggests to me that he meant all home educating mothers. Not fathers, just mothers.

  14. Yes Mrs. Anon, here is the message which Maire Stafford sent about me;

    "And considering it was probably him who told Badman that Paula Rothermel's
    work was not sound I think he has an immense amount to answer for. Wouldn't
    be surprised if this wasn't the source of the Munchausens fiasco too."

    I can take oath and say that I had never in my life connected Munchausen's with home education until I read that! Still, it did start me thinking......

  15. >>>>>>If only the DCSF had asked me......<<<<<<


    Or me? My HE career ends next summer. I'll be in need of paid employment then.

    Mrs Anon

  16. Well that's true, Anonymous. the only thing is that i have heard a different version of this. I'm still not sure what was actually said.

  17. "Well that's true, Anonymous. the only thing is that i have heard a different version of this. I'm still not sure what was actually said."

    What version have you heard, and where from?

  18. There is no particular mystery about this. Shortly after the first meeting which she had with Graham Badman, Paula Rothermel sent me a personal email in which she said that she got on very well with him. In the submission to the select committee, she says that the first question he asked was about Munchausen's. I feel that there is a discrepancy between the two accounts, based upon this and other facts. For this reason, I say that I do not not know precisely what was said. What is your own source of information on this?

  19. " I feel that there is a discrepancy between the two accounts"

    I'm not seeing a discrepancy in what you've just said here.

    "based upon this and other facts."

    What other facts?

    "For this reason, I say that I do not not know precisely what was said."

    I'm not seeing any reason to doubt Paula's word to the Select Committee. It would be a serious transgression for her to lie to them, wouldn't it? I should think Mr Badman will be very quick to correct her and to seek justice, if she has, and she doesn't strike me as being an intellectually challenged person.

    "What is your own source of information on this?"

    Only her publicly available memo and what you're saying here. Why do you ask? Have I said something to suggest otherwise?

  20. What a prickly person you are, Anonymous! Nobody is suggesting lies or anything of the sort. I am just curious to know what was actually said. If Graham Badman said, Do you think that home educating mother's suffer from Munchausen's?", then the implication would be all mothers. If on the other hand he said, "Do you think that some home educating mothers suffer from Munchausen's?", then that would be quite another matter. It is easy enough to muddle up what was said, there was a six month gap between the meeting itself and the note which Paula Rothermel sent to the select committee. i am suggesting that the tone has changed in that time as Paula Rothermel has brooded upon the matter. She now seemes convinced that the information which Graham Badman received about her research between the two meetings came from a "lay" person. How can she know this? Again, this certainty appears to have developed with the passage of time. Her view of the matter was different seven mnths ago.

  21. What a pompous person you are, Simon! But let's not get into trading personal insults: we could go on all day and I have better things to do. Besides the fact, we don't know anything about one another so I think it would be stupid of us to pretend that we did.

    If he said 'some, Paula would surely have written 'some', because the word changes the entire context of what was said and such a thing would not be easily forgotten or muddled up.

  22. Who raises a topic is one issue. Who picks it up and runs with it is another. But if you don't know about something Simon, perhaps it would be wiser not to speculate. Otherwise you might end up looking like an unlearned person.

  23. I love it, Anonymous! Insult somebody and then say you don't have all day to trade insults. Getting back to what Graham Badman said to Paula Rothermel, I am simply curious about how her views might have changed. In May, she said that people had been "bitching" about her to Graham Badman and that this was why he did not take her research seriously at the second meeting. She said that "other academics were always denigrating her work" in this way. Observe this carefully; a number of people, specifically academics have put Badman off her work. In September though, she specifically says the one "lay" person had put the poison in. One lay person, rather than several academics. Do you see my point? Obviously, by telling the select committee that Graham Badman had been unfairly influenced against her by a single lay person, it suggests that he is not up to the job. Had she said that he had been taking advice from various academics, then this would have been less damaging to him. I suspect that the same thing has happened with the Munchausen's business.

  24. Well suzyg, if the greatest risk that I am running is that I shall end up looking like an unlearned person, I am happy to take a chance on that! It would not be the first time in my life and I doubt it will be the last! If, as I said above, somebody suggests that I hold a certain view, then I am happy to think about this and try and decide honestly if the person is justified in saying this about me. Besides, as I am saying to Anonymous above, there is something odd about this Munchausen's business and I am interested to get to the bottom of it. The reason that in my post I said that CFS and ME were the same thing was that I did not want to get into the whole post viral fatigue and Yuppy Flu thing. There is a great deal to be said on the subject and that ws really just a short post. i shall be making a much longer one in a week or two.

  25. "I love it, Anonymous! Insult somebody and then say you don't have all day to trade insults."

    Glad to entertain, but I don't see any incongruity there? One insult doesn't take all day to issue. Unless, I suppose, it's a very long and complicated one, which mine wasn't.

    About the rest of your comment, please read this very carefully: I shall say it only once:

    This is not about you. It's about the fate of the 50,000+ home educating children in the UK.

    So I'm not even going to try and see your point, because I don't care who's talking about YOU and who isn't. It will probably come as a shock to you, but some of us just aren't that interested in you.

    We're here because your blog is well-read, possibly by DCSF people amongst others, and we care about home education.

  26. Well Anonymous, the comment to which you are responding was not about me; it was about Paula Rotherme. I can see though that like so many, you do not wish to discuss matters like this objectively, but prefer to make personal issues of them. Shall we agree to differ and consider the matter closed?

  27. I'm happy to consider the matter closed, having stated my firm opinion that Paula Rothermel has not lied to the Commons Select Committee, and that therefore Graham Badman was suggesting that all home educating mothers were suffering from MSBP, yes.

  28. Hi Simon
    I did try to reply when we were talkign about Steiner school in Islington but Blogspot kept eating my post so I stopped. Was just going to say that yes I know that school, I pass it every day on the bus, and yes I know Queensbridge Road, I think of it as "home of LMNT".
    On this post, I was just going to ask, wouldn't you expect to see a lot of home educated children with special needs though, as is why they are being educated at home - in other words rather than the parents wanting to educate at home so claiming special needs, they have to take the children out of school because they have special needs? I don;t know if that makes sense. It's kind of a circular argument I guess.
    I do have sympathy with "undiagnosable" things like MS as I have friends who suffered from them at uni and school (I wasn't hugely sympathetic at the time, feel bad now!) and I did see how upsetting and debilitating it can be.
    I do enjoy your blog, carry on!

  29. Sorry, I mean ME of course, not MS.

  30. Yes that's a good point. I actually work in east London and part of what I do is advise parents how to de-register their children from special schools so that they can be taught at home. There are also people who comment regularly here who have children with special needs and disabilities. Quite a few children taught at home though, seem to have things described in vague terms. Not a few of them seem to be extremely nervous and sensitive as well, so much so that they might attempt suicide if an officer from the local authority threatens to visit. I don't know if it was this sort of thing to which Graham Badman was referring, because I only learnt about this yesterday. I am not being dofmatic here, just speculating!

  31. G Simon? F it should be.
    Dofmatic makes no sense, to little sassy me.

    Surely you meant dogmatic, the asserting of opinions in a doctrinaire or arrogant and opinionated manner.

    But we all know, even those from DCSF who do read your blog, that dogmatical is not a term we would apply to Simon Webb, Blogger Extraordinaire.
    Mind you, neither is diplomacy a term we would apply, perhaps an emergency meeting is needed to conjure up a politically correct way to describe our special Simon.

    Come now, to bed sexy, it’s Friday, (the night of luurve x )

  32. *Grins

    I meant...

    F Simon? G it should be.

    (You see, I am all a-flutter around you!)

  33. 'Munchausen's of course is a psychological problem which causes healthy people to pose as injured or ill.'

    MSBP is a disorder in which someone - usually a child but not exclusively - is harmed, usually physically, by someone who wishes to bring attention to themselves by their acts. Similarly, in Munchausens, the sufferer deliberately harms themselves. The suggestion that MSBP also includes the claiming of illness or injury as well as actual harm by proxy is highly dubious, and it is not difficult to see how this could be used to excuse medical negligence. All of the MSBP cases on record involving children have been diagnosed as a result of children becoming ill or injured with no apparent medical cause. On investigation it was found that these children had been deliberately harmed without doubt, the case of Beverley Allitt being a definitive example.

    The significant factor here is that of attention. Believing that your child has a condition, even if wrongly, does not imply that you are trying to seek attention for yourself. In fact, removing your child from school is likely to take attention away from you, not towards you. It is therefore scandalous to suggest that Home Education is in anyway linked to MSBP, and by asking the question, Graham Badman is clearly suggesting it. While you may claim you are merely 'musing' on the topic, it is clear that you are going out of your way to justify everything Graham Badman says.

    When the words 'of course' or 'obviously' are used without proof or supporting information, people should always question the accuracy of the statement. The intention is usually to deceive, not to inform.

  34. Well Josh Truman, it is not true that I am justifying everything that Badman said. For one thing, we don't know what he said. I was accused on a support group of having suggested this idea to Graham Badman and so I thought it worth considering the matter a little. I have no idea what Graham Badman said or thinks about this.

  35. 'I can, in a way, see what might have motivated Graham Badman to ask this question.'

    This proves that you're trying to justify Graham Badman's possible suggestion of a link between MSBP and home education. Whether or not you know his exact wording is semantics.

    In your opinion how many home-educated children have you come across whose parents say they have hard-to-diagnose disorders that you personally don't believe they have? If you aren't able to give an answer to this question, why are you trying to justify the suggestion of a link between MSBP and home education?

  36. It's not a question of semantics at all; I don't know whether he said anything at all about Munchausen's! The first I heard of this was when I was accused on the HE-UK message board of being the one who encouraged him to disreagrd Paula Rothermel's research. It was also suggested that I had given him some idea about Munchausen's. As far as I can gather, the only evidence that he has ever said anything about the subject is a sentence or two in a submissions to the DCSF select committee. I have seen nothing at all about it anywhere else. So I assumed that he might have said something and then I tried to guess what he might have said and what he might have meant by it. The best thing would be for somebody to get in touch with him and ask him himself! This is still a very new idea to me and so I was simply speculating on what might prompt somebody to make such a statement, if indeed it was made.

  37. 'So I assumed that he might have said something and then I tried to guess what he might have said and what he might have meant by it.'

    Why on earth would you waste your time doing that, and then go on to intimate that there was some validity in what you say he may have said, if MSBP is such a "new idea" to you? I thought you didn't like "sloppy thinking"? Perhaps you also dislike obfuscation in place of straight-talking, intimation rather than facts and chinese whispers, of which you are also guilty?

  38. No, I didn't mean that Munchausen's by proxy was a new idea to me; that has been around since the late seventies! I meant that it was a new idea to me that home educating mothers might sometimes suffer from the syndrome. (It was also a new and extremely curious idea that I might have suggested this scenario to Graham badman.) Look at it from my point of view. Suppose that out of the blue, somebody floated the idea on an internet list that you had been responsible for some really peculiar notion that had just appeared in print. Wouldn't you feel incined to examine the idea and try and see if there was anything in the accusation? Perhaps first by deciding whether or not you actually believed what you were being accused of? This is what was said of me on the list in question;

    "And considering it was probably him who told Badman that Paula Rothermel's
    work was not sound I think he has an immense amount to answer for. Wouldn't
    be surprised if this wasn't the source of the Munchausens fiasco too."

    This was the first mention that i had ever seen of Munchausen's in connection with home education. I was bound to find it interesting, especially considering that I was being put forward as the source!

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