Friday 12 February 2010
Watching a Greek tragedy
Many years ago and a long way from England, I once watched a man for whom I had no particular liking walk unwittingly towards a minefield. Those who think that I am a pretty unpleasant sort of fellow these days, should have known me in those days! I very nearly didn't warn the man and honestly considered telling myself that it was no affair of mine if he were to blow himself to bits! What causes me to tell this story? Early onset Alzheimer's perhaps, which would also account neatly for all my crazy ideas about home education?
I am irresistibly reminded of the chap who unknowingly lurched towards almost certain destruction, by the way things are currently moving in the world of British home education. Watching home educators in this country today as they deal, or fail to deal with unfolding events fills me with a sense of deja vu . I really should warn them!
A year ago, as everybody knows, the DCSF set up an enquiry run by Graham Badman which looked into elective home education in this country. The almost universal response from home educators, both individuals and organisations, was to tell him to get lost. If one summed up in demotic English what the general attitude towards Graham Badman and his enquiry was, it could be put thus, "Piss off, you freak and leave us alone! We're happy as we are and don't want any change." This was of course a tactical error. Badman's enquiry was what we call in legal terms an "Invitation to treat". In other words, he put forward some ideas and then others put forward slightly different ideas. A dialectical process would then take place and from the thesis and antithesis would emerge a synthesis which might perhaps be satisfactory to both sides. This did not happen. Unable to tell which way the wind was blowing, home educators simply rejected all idea of change and thought that if they stood firm the thing would blow over, as had the York Consulting exercise a couple of years earlier.
Because nobody would put forward any practical suggestions for change, and since change was coming, Badman's ideas alone went forward to the DCSF and were immediately adopted. Graham Badman is no lawyer and so some of his ideas, such as local authorities having a right of access to homes, were unrealistic; they were quietly dropped, but everything else which he suggested was accepted without question. Because of the refusal of home educators to offer any ideas of their own, Badman's recommendations were all his own work.
In October, the DCSF select committee looked briefly at the conduct of the review. Once again, the attitude of home educators was "No Surrender!" and they continued to reject all idea of change and put forward no practical proposals of their own which might have formed the basis for a compromise. In November, the Queen's speech contained a new Children, Schools and Families Bill which included the recommendations contained in the Badman Report.
And still, home educators refuse to negotiate or move an inch from the position that the whole idea of change in the arrangements for home education is unacceptable and must be dropped. The bill has cleared the commons intact and will sail through the Lords in the same way. By June at the latest, it will have become law. As it stands, home educators have had no say at all in what is contained within it. Diana Johnson, Under-Secretary of State for Schools, tried as recently as last month to invite education Otherwise to meet with her and discuss the new legislation, but they refused point blank.
Things are now unfolding with the horrible inevitability of a Greek tragedy. As others have probably noticed, the Children, Schools and Families Bill 2009, says little in detail of what it will actually require. The statement of educational intent is vague, nobody really knows what a suitable education will be. It is, in effect, an enabling bill. The details will be filled in later by a series of Statutory Instruments which parliament will not need to scrutinise. We have reached the endgame.
There is still an opportunity for home educators to influence this bill. The DCSF are planning to set up a project to monitor the educational attainments and long term outcomes of a cohort of home educated children. If home educators start to cooperate with this process, it could have the effect of opening up a dialogue with the DCSF. Before these various Statutory Instruments are enacted, the DCSF will try and consult with interested parties. If home educators refuse to become engaged then the DCSF will turn to the education departments of local authorities and make them their partners. This would be a catastrophe, because many teachers and other local authority officers are actually opposed to the very notion of home education. If they become the DCSF's partners in deciding the ultimate nature of the provisions for home education made in the Children, Schools and Families Bill, then the long term lookout for home education in this country will really not be very good.
Good morning, Simon
ReplyDeleteWhat are your views on Trotskyite incorporation as outlined here http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/soc/courses/soc4s3/theory/hyman.htm
Fiona Nicholson, Education Otherwise
I'm familiar with the argument, Fiona. And if you are a Marxist and believe in historical materialism, that the dialectic works in a solid way, rather than just as an intellectual contruct, then so evidently do you.
ReplyDeleteI do not myself subscribe to this ideology. I believe that the dialectical process takes place in a transcendent, Platonic realm, far removd from the material world. The ideas so produced, the synthesis which emerges from the clashing of thesis and antithesis, affect indirectly human affairs. I do not see the dialectical process as being an historical event, in other words, but one of the many factors which affect history. tell me, why do you ask? Are you yourself a Marxist?
Just to make things a little clearer, for those who do not know quite as much about Marxism as Fiona; the situation is as follows. The dialectical process as commonly practiced is rather like the structure of a syllogism in Aristotelean logic. We start with one idea, the thesis, and set it against another, the antithesis. From the two, emerges a new idea, the synthesis, which incorporates the best of both thesis and antithesis. In dialectical materialism, of which Fiona is apparently a disciple, the dialectic works in the real word of history and is not mediated by ideas. For example, in the English Civil War, one had an an absolutist monarchy, the thesis. Set against this was the republic, the antithesis. These two forces clashed and from them came a synthesis, the constitutional monarchy which we have today.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can understand, Fiona is suggesting that a similar sort of thing should be happening now in the world of home education. Just as many Bolsheviks felt that trade uniones should not cosy up to the autocracy and must remain separate, so too I think is Fiona saying the the home education movement must be an opposing force to the thesis that home education needs regulation.
This would be fine if one believed that history actually progressed in this way, if one were a classical marxist in other words. I am an idealist though, and believe that it is the opposition of ideas in the Platonic sense which give rise to new ideas. These new ideas then affect history by their adoption by some men and women who act upon them. This is of course the complete opposite of the Marxist view of historical materialism and the dialectical process.
Predictably, I don't agree with your interpretation of events at all. Since my disagreements are so predictable, I won't go into it in excruciating detail.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I wonder if the chap walking towards the minefield wondered at first why you were shouting at him rather than coming over for a nice chat.
I put it to you that the government are the ones striding purposefully towards the minefield with their fingers in their ears.
History will have to judge between us, Ciaran.
ReplyDeleteBut what use is history if we don't learn from it. Several places around the world (New Zealand is one example) have already introduced then dropped the kind of monitoring system the government is proposing, having found it to be a pointless waste of money, as well as diverting resources away from things that really do need attention.
ReplyDeleteBut of course, it's not the government's hundreds of millions of pounds they're throwing away, it's ours.
Well of course, that's quite true. However, New Zealand is pretty tough on the whole question of home education and keep a close eye on it. One must apply to the Secretary of State for an exemption from the requirement to register your child at a school. It is legal requirement that the child will be taught "as regularly and as well as in a registered school". Time tables and curricula are needed and before registration actually takes place, the ministry has a pretty good idea about the family. They come back with demands for visits in quite a few cases and if you don't comply, back to school with your child! Is this the sort of scheme you envisage here?
ReplyDeleteNeedless to say, I don't envisage any kind of a scheme here.
ReplyDeleteI think you're extremely naive or optimistic if you believe that home educators can have any significant influence by participating in the legislative process. Such participation would merely be used as a means of endorsing the process. The minor changes seen so far are simply cosmetic obfuscation in order not to frighten away the government's own MPs.
ReplyDeleteYou also seem to assume that the people involved - government or local authorities - have any competence or genuine interest in anything relating to the welfare and education of children when in fact they have very little. They are simply trying to do the job that they want to do in the way that they want. For those kinds of people that means imposing their will on everyone else - all, as CiaranG points out, at our expense. Unfortunately, the nature of our society is such that pushy people who are good for nothing very much end-up running our lives.
By the way, whatever became of the chap you "saved" - was it worthwhile or a waste of breath in the long run?
The bill has cleared the commons intact and will sail through the Lords in the same way. By June at the latest,
ReplyDeleteHow do you know it will sail though the lords?Lord Lucas thinks it will run out of time in the lords because of election having to be called.
Home educators will NOT cooperate with this process and look forward to shutting the door on LA/s/DCSF/Balls and Uncle Badman.(sorry Lord Badman)
If I only ever agree with Simon on one thing, it is that the bill is very likely to become law.
ReplyDeleteHowever, instead of rolling over and dying - or taking part in the sham that Simon describes as dialectic (what are the happy pills that he is on?) - home educators have little to lose and I suggest now is the time to start being a little more heavy-handed with Labour MPs; let them know that if they support the bill, then come the election, they will be branded as opening doors for child abusers. Let them know that Labour's "Education, Education Education" mantra is baloney and they will be vilified; home educators can do this better than most people. Explain that you will campaign actively against them on these matters of wider interest to the electorate.
MPs are accustomed to people being fairly compliant and in awe of their position. Instead, give them a little of what they don't expect - it's simply game theory - and let them know that they can expect much worse in the run up to their job selection.
Being negative in reply to the last anon,- it is because of the possible label of child abusers that I expect that it will become law. Although I am sure that home educators are no more likely to abuse their children than anyone else, if this is presented as a child protection issue it is very difficult for any MP to vote against new legislation. The Khyra Ishaq trial was expected to end today (it didn't because the CPS wouldn't accept an admission of manslaughter from the mother and so the murder trial is continuing) but when an end looked likely who did the BBC want to interview? -- a home educator. It seems whatever the real truth (ie even if a case hasn't really got anything to do with HE) we will still be linked ... hence the whole review in the first place......
ReplyDeleteGoing back to New Zealand, it isn't nearly as draconian as you make out, Simon. There is no requirement to follow a curriculum, and although they ask for a timetable it can be as flexible as most families' are in the UK. There is a requirement to ensure that children are "taught as regularly and as well" as they would be in school, but "teach" is not defined, and "as well" is a very vague phrase; it certainly does not mean "the same as". The biggest problem they have seems to be the same one we have here: the ptb not understanding alternatives to mainstream education.
ReplyDeleteThe biggest difference is that NZ HErs have to seek permission to HE, but it doesn't appear to be very difficult to get it; much like downloading an Ed Phil from the net, actually!
Oh - and there is one more difference. They get paid to HE.
Julie, Perhaps I wasn't clear and gave you the wrong end of the stick; the bill opens the door for child abusers working as inspectors (all suitably checked, of course). Now beat your MP with the correct end of the stick.
ReplyDeleteyes inspectors must be checked at home look at they computer interview them search they house just in case they are child abusers?
ReplyDeleteAnon of many, yes, I know that is what you meant, but what I meant was that it is the very fear of child abuse which may well lead to the Bill being passed in the first place.
ReplyDeleteAs to your comment though; I have to say that although I am not in support of Badman et al for many reasons, the fear that it may well let child abusers in to the home disguised as inpectors ins't one of them! Yes, paedophiles exist but I doubt whether becoming an HE inspector is a particularly efficient way of getting access to children; and anyway whatever the law actually says, I don't think most families will end up in the situation where children are forced into unsupervised visits with inspectors be they good or bad.
So whilst there are many reasons for fighting, this one won't get my vote!!
Yes, I was wondering the same thing Julie. Becoming a home education inspector does not seem to me the best way for a paedophile to get near children. Surely the parents would object if he tried it in their own home? I would have thought that youth clubs, Woodcraft Folk or even schools would be a better bet.
ReplyDeleteOf course it's unlikely that HE inspectors will be paedophiles! But the same is also true of HE parents. However, "Every Child Matters" and the government purports to be concerned about the smallest risk. As Simon himself once said:
ReplyDelete"I have not heard of any cases of HE Inspectors killing or abusing children, but that does not mean that it can't happen in the future."
Unlikely, yes; impossible? No. Do MPs really want to be seen to support that small risk? Mention Vanessa George and the effectiveness of CRB checks.
You can call me cynical, but I don't think you're left with any other chance of stopping this legislation; the Labour crowd have been well-whipped to ignore all of the "reasonable" arguments.
Personally, we haven't the slightest fear of unsupervised inspections or inspectors - my kids are sufficiently well-equipped intellectually (not to mention physically) - to make this a salutary experience for anyone that might wish to venture over the doorstep.
However - for reasons often related to school experiences - this isn't the case for all HE children and they are the ones that face the most damage from the proposed legislation.
Julie said...
ReplyDelete"Being negative in reply to the last anon,- it is because of the possible label of child abusers that I expect that it will become law. Although I am sure that home educators are no more likely to abuse their children than anyone else, if this is presented as a child protection issue it is very difficult for any MP to vote against new legislation."
But in spite of that, Lib Dems and Conservatives opposed it at the second reading and at the committee stage. Many MPs are now wise to the implications and don't see the legislation as a simple safeguard against child abuse, but as something with significant further ramifications.
Many MPs opposed it because they were trying to embarrass the governemnet and sabotage a flagship bill. It passed through the commons with no amendments.
ReplyDelete"It passed through the commons with no amendments."....actually that is not right - aren't we waiting for the "Report stage: House of Commons" on 23.02.2010 ? The original date for the 3rd reading got put back?? In the end though I still think that the only thing that will stop the Bill isn't argument, valid or otherwise, but political games arounfd the announcement of the General Election.
ReplyDeleteAh, on the ball as always Julie! I should have said no known amendments.
ReplyDeleteHmm, not sure that is right either... I do find it difficult to keep up with all the political stuff (too busy actually doing education!) but I thought the gist of some of Fiona's messages this week was that someone had proposed an amendment to strike out the home ed clauses and it would be discussed in the report to the Commons on the 23rd. Still don't think it will make any difference, but if we are going to say things they need to be correct! (If you think I am pedantic, meet my husband!)
ReplyDeleteI didn't say that no amendments had been proposed! I think over a hundred were suggested, ranging from altering a couple of words here and there to, as you say, striking out entire clauses. None of them have yet been adopted and so we cannot say that it has yet been amended before being passed to the Lords. I am the last person, Julie, to criticise you for pedantry. Pedantic nit picking is meat and drink to me, as you should know by now.
ReplyDeleteOn the related (but original) topic of cooperation with the powers that be, I do think a lot more is going on at a local level. Personally I feel that what happens in Parliament is out of our control, but home educators can do a lot to influence things at a locally. We had the EOTAS manager and the new appointment for Hampshire (role as yet a little unlcear - that will probably depend on the legislative changes or otherwise) visit the group we run for 2 hours this week. The EOTAS man has been before and we expect a steady influx of other LA staff to see what we do. They were impressed; it is hard not to be....63 children in various tuition groups. What they kept commenting on was the behaviour and attitude of the young people, and the commitment of the parents (we are mid exam stress with a module 2 weeks away). The thing is the home educated children those in management hear about are the problem families.. those suspected of not providing an education, not the successful ones. Now about 50% of our families are unknown to the LA anyway, and we have even managed to agree a scheme where some of those parents are being CRB checked (because we have been given access to a school science lab) without the families being cross checked with a list of known HE families. We have also been able to absorb a couple of families who had been told to send their children back to school because they had failed to produce evidence of an efficient education; we don't do miracles but a bit of help from other families and some 1:1 tuition in the group setting has rescued both the families from prosecution and the LA from the expense.
ReplyDeleteWhat I am trying to say is that surely this sort of cooperation is going to be more effective in securing the future of home ed without the need for compromise at a national level/complicated schemes etc?
That is an extremely interesting point, Julie. Could the answer be some form of regional council, similar to the Tasmanian idea, which is run jointly by home educators and perhaps others from different parts of the community? It would need to be a local scheme, because of course you and other home educators in Hampshire know the ground and are aware of the local problems. If it were run on a small scale in counties or parts of counties, it would also stop large organisations taking control. If such schemes were set up in individual local authority areas, there would be no need at all for any interference from London. Of course it would mean, on the one hand, local authorities and teachers accepting that home education was an acceptable alternative to school. On the other hand, it would require all home educating parents to acknowledge that others had a legitimate interest in their children. I would be curious to see if anything like this were to happen.
ReplyDeleteJulie-We had the EOTAS manager and the new appointment for Hampshire (role as yet a little unlcear - that will probably depend on the legislative changes or otherwise
ReplyDeleteIs that Jack Cawthra your talking about? he is the manger for EOTAS.Jack is against home education and belives all children should be in school.
We have also been able to absorb a couple of families who had been told to send their children back to school because they had failed to produce evidence of an efficient education
Was that according to Jack Cawthra that these families had failed to produce evidence of a suitable education? Jack only likes home education if it is like a state school education.
but home educators can do a lot to influence things at a locally level? Thats not quite true because we know for a fact that a number of home educators in Hampshire have complained to Jack Cawthra about they treatment by his officers but Jack has refused to listen or to help.David Kirk who is the councilor in charge of children's service for Hampshire has put in writing that no resourses will be given to home educators.
So your rosy picture Julie is not quite correct a number of home educators in Hampshire are very unhappy with the service they get from Hampshire County Council.
No, This was Jan Lewis who is the whole new county wide home ed position and our local EOTAS manager, who isn't Jack Cawthra- so the failed provision of the families I mentioned wasn't anything to do with your man. We have also had a productive meeting with Councillor Kirk and contrary to your doom and gloom we have (for those who want it - I am not suggesting all home educators do) made arrangements for our group to have access to a school science lab and other resources, such as exam centres. I do know that it isn't the same for you in the North of the county, but we are expecting the man from the North East area to visit us soon to see what we are doing and hopefully some of what we have achieved will be replicated county wide in the end ( that is part of Jan Lewis' remit, I think).
ReplyDeleteSo whilst I am unhappy that you are not yet able to reap the benefits of our scheme, it is working down here to everyones advantage (including people who have no LA contact!)
Simon,
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned the idea of regional councils; I am not sure that anything like that would work, given the lack of trust and cooperation between home educators themselves, let alone with the LAs. (See the another home educators comments about Hampshire!). Yes, home educators locally have had meetings with all 3 area managers and the HCC education Councillor, and there is some kind of sub committee being proposed to meet with the Coucnicloor regualrly. We(local group) have the local EOTAS manager to an open discussion meeting and to view group activities by invitation; but that is very different from having a group of home educators represent other home educators in any sort of formal way. We have done this to get what group members want, but what we obtain is optional - ie if they want to avail themselves of the offers they can. I am still of the opinion though that this attempt at "jaw, jaw" is improving relationships all round.
"Yes, paedophiles exist but I doubt whether becoming an HE inspector is a particularly efficient way of getting access to children"
ReplyDeleteWhy not? The abuse wouldn't need to happen during the visit, but it could be an efficient way to identify children who are available during the day whose parents are likely to be looking for educational opportunities outside the home. It also puts them in a responsible/respected position where their recommendations of people and activities are likely to be listened to. Have you been following the Hollie Greig case in Scotland at all?
http://www.ukcolumn.org/2010/02/02/child-rapists-protected-by-the-state/
Julie -We have also had a productive meeting with Councillor Kirk.David Kirk has put in writing that no resourses are to be given to home educators.
ReplyDeletemade arrangements for our group to have access to a school science lab and other resources, such as exam centres.Your group? but not for lone home educators? only if your part of a group? that does not sound very fair did Kirk check to see if your doing it like a school?Did Kirk confrim that he does not trust parents to home educate?and wanst to search the house just in case?
, This was Jan Lewis who is the whole new county wide home ed position and our local EOTAS manager, who isn't Jack Cawthra- so the failed provision of the families I mentioned wasn't anything to do with your man.
Never heard of Jan Lewis what is he and what does he appear to do?
Jack Cawthra is head of EOTAS and he would have had a hand in dealing with these children.All major decision over any possible failure to home educate would be at the very least show to him for his comments! and jack would have plenty to say as he is very hostile to home education
some of what we have achieved will be replicated county wide in the end ( that is part of Jan Lewis' remit, I think).
So whilst I am unhappy that you are not yet able to reap the benefits of our scheme, it is working down here to everyones advantage (including people who have no LA contact!)
I wonder how Jan will over come Jack Cawthra and David Kirk who are both hostile to home education
I am afraid it is all doom and gloom in this part of Hampshire and a number of home educators have complained in writing to David Kirk and Jack Cawthra but they have refused to listen to us maybe its because we not part of a group that they just refuse to listen.or that we do not home educate like a school.
Anon said "Have you been following the Hollie Greig case in Scotland at all?"
ReplyDeletebut surely again using evidence like this is playing into the hands of Badman and co.... terrible as the case is, the most obvious point is that the first abuser of this child was her father! Sadly all children and vunerable young people are statisticially more likely to be abused by their families, which is why home educators were a target in the first place.
That is one of the things I have found most infuriating about some of the arguments used against the Badman report; home educators complained about poor statistics,overlooking that the obvious response was for more research (and of course compulsory registration to enable the results to be valid); if people go on about the risk of child abusers gaining access to our children in the form of HE inspectors than it is easy to show that actually statistically they are at greater risk from their parents! Paula Rothermel is unhappy about Simon's views on her research and wants to stop it being discussed, so she threatens legal action(and you only have to read the newspapers to see how effective that is!). Sometimes more thought is needed before more damage is done.
given the lack of trust and cooperation between home educators themselves, let alone with the LAs.
ReplyDeleteJulie Why are home educators so unhappy with hampshire LA you dont think its got something do with the way they treat us do you? making threats writing very poor letters to home educators? and showing no real understanding of home education.
I am still of the opinion though that this attempt at "jaw, jaw" is improving
No its a waste of time talking to them they want to stop home education unless its done the school way they are hostile to home education and make threats just like a bully does in the playground and get cross when the parent will not obey them.I woner if its because your a teacher that they like you Julie?
Anon said "Never heard of Jan Lewis what is he and what does he appear to do?"
ReplyDeleteNot he, but she; actual role is yet unclear but part of it is to ensure equality for home educators in all parts of Hants.
Yes, as for things like the lab, it is a group thing; although in fact our group aren't local (some are out of county from W sussex, but they were happy with that). We will arrange and run the sessions at the centre; it is probable similar twilight provision will also happen at a PRU in the NE areas and West, but we are ahead of the game.
As to whether we are " school like" - well the tuition groups are, because they are aiming at GCSEs, but we do plenty of very non school like things! Basically we do what home educators want to and since we now have a waiting list on the tuition groups (63 is quite a lot of young people, 140 families in the whole group) we must be doing something right.
Anon again "making threats writing very poor letters to home educators? and showing no real understanding of home education."
ReplyDelete-one of the first things we did was get the tone of the letters changed down here!!
You still have the old wording because no one has yet gone and spoken to them about it!!
"terrible as the case is, the most obvious point is that the first abuser of this child was her father!"
ReplyDeleteTrue but it's those in authority who are covering it up and potentially allowing abuse to continue with more children, possibly as we speak. Yes, children are more likely to be abused by their parents, however, they are also more likely to be reported to the authorities by people other than teachers. A minority of abuse is recognised by teachers so I can see no justification for routine checks in the home for home educators. If they do happen they should apply equally to all children, and it would be more 'profitable' to check the homes of those under 5 who are at a considerably higher risk of abuse than older children (presumably this would entail a physical examination up by a doctor or nurse for those who are pre-literate). How far to you want them to take this and how do they justify it stopping at home educators if they truly believe it is necessary?
I do agree with you (which ever anon you are) that the very small risk of abuse doesn't give justification to the idea of invasive visiting - particularly because abused children won't suddenly disclose abuse to a stranger anyway. What I am complaining about is using cases like the above case to suggest that HE inspectors will be likely paedophiles, when that case can be used to make parents look more dangerous!
ReplyDeleteJulie Not he, but she; actual role is yet unclear but part of it is to ensure equality for home educators in all parts of Hants.
ReplyDeleteNO equality in this part of Hampshire and you have not answered the question about the HEAD of EOTAS Jack Cawthra who is hostile to home education.Jack Belives that home education can only be done if you do it like a schoo
in all parts of Hampshire? not here no sign of Jan Lewis here in this part of Hampshire any idea why? and how much is she being paid by the tax payer? she visted you with the agrement of Hants LA because you are like a school some thing they can understand home education like a school!
you not answered abot county counclor D.Kirk who has put down in writing that no resources must be given to children who are home educated? you been quite quiet about david Views on home education why? I got letters from him in which he is very clear that no resources must be given to home educators other than support from an educatinal welfare officer!
if you suck up to some one like that you really should know his true feeling about home education.
David Kirk should resign at once and allow some one who really does care about out children to do the job.
you have sold out home educators in your part of Hampshire and should stop talking to the LA at once! repeated attempts have been made to meet with D Kirk by home educated children but he has refused to meet with them i wonder why?
How can the possibility of an inspector being a paedophile make parents look more dangerous? I don't follow your logic.
ReplyDeleteAnon said "repeated attempts have been made to meet with D Kirk by home educated children but he has refused to meet with them i wonder why?"
ReplyDelete- actually the meeting I went to with Councillor Kirk was not organised by me or my local group but by the North Hants group and there was a lot of home ed children and young people there and the families came from all over the county!! ( So he did meet with some ofthe children who were pretty impressive)
In the end numbers count, I suppose... as I said meetings have been held, initiated and organisied by local groups from all the areas (including yours) - because that is what the majority of home educators want. They may not agree with new legislation, but if they do get lumbered with it they want to be able to influence things. In the meantime there are lots of things they want as support and this has been the way of making their requests known and getting some of those things. No one is suggesting that you (or anyone else) need to join in these schemes, but many people do.
I can't say anything about Jack Cawthra because I have never had any dealings with him, nor have any of our group. Likewise I can't say why you found Mr Kirk less than helpful when he was pretty positive at the meeting we attended (still a politician though!) However I can say that the group I belong to contains families who adopt a large number of different educational methods from autonomous to "school at home" and yet we all manage to be nice to each other and recoginise the need to improve relationships with the LA. I am sorry you have chosen to be so negative about what can only improve the lot of home educating families in Hampshire.
Yet another Anon said " How can the possibility of an inspector being a paedophile make parents look more dangerous? I don't follow your logic."
ReplyDeleteIt was the evidence that is being used to support the idea that authorities may employ paedophiles which I was objecting to; since the original perpetrator(in the case being quoted) was the child's parent. It therefore seemed dangerous evidence to use, since it could be used to point to the opposite conclusion of that intended.
But we already know that children are at more risk from parents than the authorities (though the risk is still small). The problem is that their solution will not solve the parental risk problem but will introduce the risk from authorities, their 'solution' will effectively increase overall risk levels for children. In the example given the parental risk would have ended very quickly if the authorities had not also been involved. It was the involvement of authority figures in the paedophile ring that allowed the number of children abused to grow exponentially.
ReplyDeleteJulie,
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with the other anonymous (I'm the one who raised this in the first place); your logic appears to be unfathomable.
Among people in and around the "authorities" there seems to be a strong element of denial or protectionism when it comes to the danger from those in "authority"; the numbers are undoubtedly small but there seems to a feeling that if it is highlighted it will cause panic. It's certainly not in the interests of "authority" figures - including the great majority that are innocent - to spread such information, particularly if it is true.
Parents are usually seen to be perpetrators because (a) there are so many of them and (b) they spend more time with children. I've seen Simon try to counter that but I'm not in the least impressed. He attempts to turn residual uncertainty in favour of his views and against his opponents. However, that's simply a symptom of the lack of rigour - not merely information - at the heart of the whole HE argument. More data won't help people who can't interpret it or have their own political agendas.
But back to my original point; if DCSF is so concerned about Every Child in this particular matter (a fruitless and facile case) then they risk introducing other dangers - admittedly at a low level but one which they should regard as significant - not to mention wasting resources that could be used with greater, more widespread benficial impact.
Of course, DCSF and the authorities (we should start to call them services) don't really give a damn at this level. The shocking state of the school system is clear evidence of that; ultimately, that will have (and is already having) a much more detrimental effect on children, particularly the underprivileged.
Sorry, losing the plot a bit here... I wasn't trying to make a particularly huge point, merely that I didn't think that (whatever else we use as evidence ) the Hollie case was a bad one to pick because the original perpetrator was the parent.
ReplyDeleteI think the main objection to participation in a DCSF study is their history. The majority of home educators who are aware of that history do not trust DCSF to act fairly or in the best interests of our children.
ReplyDeleteNow, if DCSF were to award the contract to an academic group such as the team that produced the Cambridge Primary Review, some people might rethink their objections.
However, what are the terms of reference? There are several groups to examine: those who've never been to school, those who were withdrawn from school (and whether age at withdrawal makes a difference) and those who choose to return to school, to name but three. Orthogonal to that is the choice of educational approach, which is a very broad spectrum. How is success measured? Counting the number of GCSEs or A-levels is a very school-centric metric, given that some home educated children are doing Open University courses when their school counterparts are doing GCSEs. How about a place at university? That surely trumps the GCSE/A-level score if a university considers that a student is good enough by other means. What about job-satisfaction in later life?
After all, if everyone had a degree then who would be doing the menial jobs? It might not be politically-correct to ask that, but ultimately the system works because there is a range of outcomes and we are not all equal. Anyone who's experienced the education system will know that intelligence and being brilliant in the field doesn't necessarily mean you can teach it.
It's a very wide field and the terms of reference for the study are ill-defined. Once we know what it to be studied and how outcomes are to be judged then perhaps home educators might be more supportive. Given the DCSF track record, I wouldn't put money on it.
I didn't get the impression that this proposed study would be trying to measure "Sucess". I think rather that it will try to look at educational attainment. One can ask how many GCSEs a child has without judging whether or not the eduation has been a success. One can also look at apprenticeships and university admissions and track these, without deciding that the university admissions are a more successfuld outcome than the apprenticeships.
ReplyDeleteBut asking how many GCSEs a child has is an increasingly useless measure of educational attainment. Even A-levels are a poor indicator these days. The school system may appear to be successful in GCSE score but that's meaningless. Like the previous anon., I'd take a body like the Cambridge Primary Review team much more seriously, but DCSF are unlikely to engage them - for obvious reasons.
ReplyDeleteInstead of concentrating on the self-serving aims of the school system, any useful review must consider outcomes like prosperity and happiness; such things are measurable (e.g., the work of respected economist David Blanchflower) albeit not as easily as fraudulent measures such as counting GCSEs.
University admissions and apprenticeships aren't enough in themselves; both universities and employers complain that children are increasingly poorly equipped with basic reasoning and self-development skills, even though they have good GCSE or A-level scores.
Schools aren't merely inefficient, Simon, they are not suitable for their primary purpose. Why would home educators wish to be judged by school standards?
I am keenly aware of just how inefficient many modern schools are; that is precisely why I educated my own child! I still cannot see any reason not to see how many home educated children attend college, university or gain five GCSEs.
ReplyDeleteWhy stop with education as a measure of success, what about self employment, for instance?
ReplyDeleteAs I said, I don't see this as measuring success, but measuring educational attainmnet. One may twelve A* GCSE's and a clutch of A levels and still be a failure. Academic achievemnet is by no means synonomous with success!
ReplyDeleteSimon said: "I am keenly aware of just how inefficient many modern schools are..."
ReplyDeleteHmmm... that's like saying that a train wreck is an inefficient means of transportation.
GCSEs (and increasingly, A-levels) are not a measure of educational attainment either.
School metrics != education != success
Julie -this was wrote by favid Kirk on 18 Noveember 2005 "one of which is that the provision of material resourses(books pens,paper,computer etc) will remain entirely the responsibilty of home educating families.
ReplyDeletedavid Kirk this an old keyboard keeps sticking!
ReplyDeleteFrom Lord Avebury who belives it will not be passed due to election coming soon
ReplyDeleteSunday, February 14, 2010
Home education
We're getting a lot of correspondence about the home education proposals in the Children, Schools and Families Bill. Here's what I said in a letter I wrote yesterday in reply to one of them:
Thank you for writing to me about the home education proposals in the Children, Schools and Families Bill. We believe these are ill-thought out and heavy handed, as our LibDem spokesperson Joan Walmsley has said in the Lords. Not only have ministers not yet properly thought out what should be expected of home educators, but they are now in danger of enforcing a “one size fits all” education through a system of registration which could well become a licensing system. LibDem MPs therefore voted against the existing Government proposals.
The LibDems support those who want to home educate, and understand that it is usually a positive choice for the children and parents involved. However, we always have in mind the right of the child to an education. We regret that the Badman Report has given the impression that home education is more likely to be related to child protection issues than school education, and we understand why this has caused concern. It is important that the policing of child protection issues is separated from the issue of whether a suitable education is being delivered.
Local authorities can’t do their present job if they don’t know which children are being home educated, so parents should tell them. A voluntary system wouldn’t address the minority of cases where home education could be of poor quality or non existent. But notification is very different from licensing or registration. Our intention is that notification would lead to more support for home educators, such as help with exam costs and access to resources. It is also reasonable to ask all home educating parents to provide information on their home education strategy annually in writing or at a meeting so that the local authority can help and support them where required.
Further detailed consultation is needed on what is reasonably required of home educators before giving local authorities or the Government the power to approve only home education that complies with defined rules. As long as the child’s rights are being fulfilled there should be scope for a great variety of approaches. However, if it is any consolation to you, it is unlikely that these provisions will survive in the Bill because when the General Election is called they will not have been properly debated in the House of Lords, and we will not support the measures as they stand.
Anon said "this was wrote by favid Kirk on 18 Noveember 2005 "one of which is that the provision of material resourses(books pens,paper,computer etc) will remain entirely the responsibilty of home educating families."
ReplyDelete- well 5 years is a long time in politics; ...although to a certain extent I would always expect that "books, pens, paper" would always remain the responsibity of the home educating families; if we can't afford that we shouldn't be attemting to home educate. Computers is another issue - although one of our group has got a free laptop out of their authority (not Hampshire) home educators are not currently eligible for the free access scheme (although somewhat ironically it was Badman himself who thought that we should be. Anyway many home educators already have access to home PCs and so wouldn't mean the criteria financially anyway, any more than most school children.
Actually anon, you don't really make much sense; on the one hand you are saying you don't want LA interference, won't respond to LA enquiries, but on the other hand you do want resources? Many families don't want to get involved with the LA so vountarily forgo any possible of gain, as is of course their right... but you can't have it both ways!
Julie-David Kirk is quite clear he said computers and as far as i am aware has not changed this view?
ReplyDeletealthough to a certain extent I would always expect that "books, pens, paper" would always remain the responsibity of the home educating families; if we can't afford that we shouldn't be attemting to home educate.Its not a question of not affording. It is what is right for home educated children and why not help towards these things? which Kirk refuses to do.David Kirk is hostile to home education and refuses to listen to a number of home educators in this part of Hampshire who have complained to him and Jack Cawthra over the way his officers treat home educators.those 2 must resign at once and allow some one who really does care about our children to do the job
It may all be rosy where you are but it is not here!
Actually anon, you don't really make much sense; on the one hand you are saying you don't want LA interference, won't respond to LA enquiries, but on the other hand you do want resources?
Who said i wont respond to LA enquires? so long as they are with in the law! resources should be offered to all home educators in Hampshire and it is then up to each family to decide if they want them.It would appear that HCC only offer resources to groups like yours that are doing home education the right way.It is HCC LA who poke they nose in and refuse to listen to complants and concerns that home educators have.
Why have home educators here not been told about Jan Lewis but you have? if she a supporter of Kirk?Cawthra she be a waste of space! but we should still be told.
Why do you suck up to David Kirk? what in it for you? or are you scared of HCC? if your scared dont be they all bark and no action!
Anon said "Why have home educators here not been told about Jan Lewis but you have?"
ReplyDeleteYou are barking up the wrong tree here - the initative to organise meetings with the LA and the resulting announcemnet about this appointment came from the North Hants group in the first place, not us in the south, so if you are not on your local list than I suppose that is why you don't know!
Anon said "Why do you suck up to David Kirk? what in it for you? or are you scared of HCC? if your scared dont be they all bark and no action!"
I have only met David Kirk once in an open meeting for home educators!!
What local list? Jan Lewis will be a waste of space but all home educators should be told about her and how much she is paid of tax payers money.
ReplyDeleteI know of a number of home educators here in this part of Hampshire who are very unhappy with David Kirk and HCC now you may not like it but it is a fact.
i repeat again resources should be offered to all home educators in Hampshire and it is then up to each family to decide if they want them.It would appear that HCC only offer resources to groups like yours that are doing home education the right way.
You met him and what did you say to Kirk?(i put in a request for the notes of the meeting) open meeting for home educators should be open to all home educators not just a select few who Kirk would cherry pick! I know him and how he works.did Kirk confrim he belives in forced home visits forced interview of children with out parent in room? did he confrim how much he mistrust parents/children to do home education in the right way? did he confrim that it was all for yor own good he was doing this?(remember he would have been in agreement with the responses HCC sent off to Badman including the bit about right of entry to house)
"It is what is right for home educated children and why not help towards these things? "
ReplyDeleteBecause we have opted out of state education (where materials are provided though school costs can still be quite expensive for parents!) in much the same way as those who use private schools have opted out. Or do you think that private school pupils should be provided with materials for use in their education too?
Because we have opted out of state education (where materials are provided though school costs can still be quite expensive for parents!) in much the same way as those who use private schools have opted out. Or do you think that private school pupils should be provided with materials for use in their education too?
ReplyDeleteMany parents have been forced to as you put it to opte out of state education so yes why not help toward resources? these resources should be offered to ALL home educators and each family can decide if they want them if you dont want them you just say no thanks! where does that money go that used to be spent on the child when it was at a state school? dose it just vanish into thin air? i think some home educators just want a little help with materials not the 5000 it cost to keep a child at a state school.
Most parents who send they children to school that i have met want tax relief on cost of sending child to private school which i would support.
if we opted out as you claim then why do LA's keep on poking they nose in? remember we pay those LA staff they wages funded by us the tax and the service they delivery is rubbish! i know of at least one LA officer who takes great delight in the fact that NO materials are given to home educators in Hampshire.I belive Kirk takes delight in this to! I never heard him say it is not right that no resources are given to home educators.Kirk has got plenty of chances to say but has always said no materials for home educators!
" Anon again said "(i put in a request for the notes of the meeting) open meeting for home educators should be open to all home educators not just a select few who Kirk would cherry pick!"
ReplyDeletebut it was home educators who set up the meeting and it was open to anybody; if you aren't on a local list (North Hants EO would be your nearest) how can you expect to know these things? Notes on the meeting were takne by the NHEO spokesperson and are available on that Yahoo group; Kirk didn't take any minutes, it was the home educators meeting!
Gosh you are the most infuriating man I have never met!!
Notes on the meeting were takne by the NHEO spokesperson and are available on that Yahoo group; Kirk didn't take any minutes, it was the home educators
ReplyDeleteWhy did Kirk not take any notes of the meet hats not like him!i will check this! and put in a request so that we can find out what Kirk really thought you the meeting i know him he would have said sometihng to Jack Cawthra
was open to anybody; if you aren't on a local list (North Hants EO would be your nearest) how can you expect to know these things?
its not open to every one only if your on a list thats not right!
Gosh you are the most infuriating man I have never met!!
But i am right about Kirk and the others who work for Hampshire.Kirk is hostile to home education we must find out why he is?Kirk wants to destroy home education unless you do it the right way.
perhaps you be very lucky one day and met me! i put you right about HCC and Kirk /Jack Cawthra! they is something very fishy about those 2.
You are rambling... I am giving up; if you want to find out what is happening join your local lists!
ReplyDeleteYou are rambling... I am giving up; if you want to find out what is happening join your local lists!
ReplyDeleteits not ramling its the truth about Kirk he is hostile to home education and has wrote that no resources must be given to home educators.
What list where is it?
To Anon
ReplyDeleteAs I am the moderator of the local North Hants list I am surprised that you say you dont know what is going on locally.
Bearing in mind that we have displays of Home Educated work twice a year in the local libraries, we meet monthly at a well publicised Soft Play Area and if you google Home Ed Hampshire, our site comes up and on the front page, lists the dates you can come and meet us.
Our annual event, a Safety Day utilising all the emergency services, encompassing Home Ed families from across three counties was broadcast on the local radio last year.
Short of paying for a 20ft banner across the front of my house, I fail to see what else could have been done to advertise Home Ed activities. Perhaps you need to get out more.
However, as you are "anon" I have no idea who you are and where you are based so assume you are at least based in the area.
I organised the three meetings with Cllr Kirk, David Harvey and Colin Diaper. All the meeting notes from these meetings were posted onto the relevant Home Ed Support Sites.
The meetings were open to ALL in the Home Ed Community regardless of whether they are "known" or "unknown" and I attended all of them in the capacity of facilitator. Cllr Kirk and Colin Diaper's meeting also included a number of very well behaved children. They both expressed their admiration for the hard work that Home Educators do.
You could adopt a cyncial attitude, after all Cllr Kirk is a polititian first and foremost, however I personally found it informative to speak face to face and explain the problems we face and what support would be useful for those who wanted to avail themselves of it.
Jan Lewis initially came along in an advisory capacity as she was not yet in post and keen to hear from Home Educators the difficulties we faced, the services we would like to access, and what Hants could offer in the way of resources.
I arrived with a very long wish list - I like to be optimistic!
We are slowly working our way down it and yes, progress is slow, however, we have had some notable successes. Both in Julie's area and in mine - North Hampshire.
Perhaps you would care to contact me offlist and, subject to the usual security checks, you would be most welcome on the local North Hants list which would keep you up to date with local events.
Our group philosophy is that the adults learn to play nicely with their friends. We generally find we have no problems with the children.
Trust this alleviates any concerns you may have - and just for your information - the local Home Ed list has been in operation for some years, I have only been a modertor for the past 3 years and we welcome all home ed families. From School in a Box to Autonomous and everything in between.
Just in case you are wondering, I am "unkown" in the fact that my daughter has never been to school and are therefore not registered with the LA. However, I am very much known to the LA, in that I speak on a regular basis and have been instrumental in obtaining some benefits to the Home Educators locally.
I dont have any special powers, anyone could have done it, it was just a case of picking up the telephone and talking.
Bearing in mind that we have displays of Home Educated work twice a year in the local libraries, we meet monthly at a well publicised Soft Play Area
ReplyDeleteNo Home educated work is displayed in our local Library.
our annual event, a Safety Day utilising all the emergency services, encompassing Home Ed families from across three counties was broadcast on the local radio last year.
I missed that and never head about it!
Perhaps you need to get out more.
We get out quite a bit we enjoy our trips to London.
Cllr Kirk and Colin Diaper's meeting also included a number of very well behaved children. They both expressed their admiration for the hard work that Home Educators do.
Diaper is special needs? Did Kirk put it down in writing about his admiration? I do have it down in writing from David Kirk that no resources must be given to home educators!
I personally found it informative to speak face to face and explain the problems we face and what support would be useful for those who wanted to avail themselves of it.
But what real action is Kirk going to take to help all home educators or was it more of his garbage?
Jan Lewis initially came along in an advisory capacity as she was not yet in post and keen to hear from Home Educators the difficulties we faced, the services we would like to access, and what Hants could offer in the way of resources.
Never heard of Jan Lewis what is her role? is it her role to get lots of school attendance orders on behalf of Kirk?and Jack Cawthra does Jan report to Kirk/Jack Cawthra?That man is a danger to home education be very careful of him.
I arrived with a very long wish list - I like to be optimistic!
We are slowly working our way down it and yes, progress is slow, however, we have had some notable successes. Both in Julie's area and in mine - North Hampshire.
What progress have you made? I dont see any here?
That old fox Steve mellor is the guy in charge of home education for our area think he is based at feet but have not heard a word from him for over 4 years! Jack Cawthra is his boss at winchester but he is even worse and hostile to home education! kept going on about a school attendance order last last time i heard from him.he lost education work that our child did more likly he chucked it in the trash can!
I see if i can track down your group
dont have any special powers, anyone could have done it, it was just a case of picking up the telephone and talking.
Did they shout at you when you phoned? or keep you hanging on phone or refuse to come to phone i remember our child phoned Kirk but he would not come to the phone but he was in the office very strange indeed.
Anon said "That old fox Steve mellor is the guy in charge of home education for our area think he is based at feet but have not heard a word from him for over 4 years!"
ReplyDeleteHe left a while ago...new one for your area is Dave Harvey!
Never heard of Dave Harvey did Steve Mellor get the sack? and if so what for? did it have anything to do with his bizarre ideas on home education?
ReplyDeleteDoes Dave Harvey share Steve Mellor strange ideas on home education? Uncle Mellor belived that parents should follow a time table and that every child should be in school!
What good news to hear he been sacked? you made me day Julie glasss of white i think cheers!
Sorry to disappoint you, I think he left because he got a promotion and now works for West Sussex!
ReplyDeleteNo Home educated work is displayed in our local Library.
ReplyDeleteFeel free to share the name of your local library and I will ensure you have a display put up.
broadcast on the local radio last year.
I missed that and never head about it!
I guess it is down to which local radio you choose to listen to. Like education, it is all about choice.
We get out quite a bit we enjoy our trips to London.
So do I, but support our local groups too.
Diaper is special needs?
No
Did Kirk put it down in writing about his admiration? I do have it down in writing from David Kirk that no resources must be given to home educators!
He spoke to the children and the parents and commented on their good behaviour. I dont think it was conditional he had to put it in writing. We had a display of the childrens work and was happy to listen when the children pointed what they had done.
I do have it down in writing from David Kirk that no resources must be given to home educators!
Perhaps you would like to share that then with the local community so we can challenge it if needed.
But what real action is Kirk going to take to help all home educators or was it more of his garbage?
The short answer is I dont know. I have never spoken to him before so I cannot comment on the garbage. He is a polititian, so I expect he is full of promises, but it is the start of a dialogue, not the end of one.
Never heard of Jan Lewis what is her role
If you were on the local list you would be aware of her. She is the Elective Home Education Coordinator ,Education & Inclusion - Children's Services Department
is it her role to get lots of school attendance orders on behalf of Kirk?and Jack Cawthra does Jan report to Kirk/Jack Cawthra?
To my knowledge she does not report to either. As far as I know Jack Cawtha's responsibility covers Seriously ill children, Emotionally vulnerable children and Pupils playing truent.
What progress have you made? I dont see any here?
Where are you based? Perhaps I can help?
That old fox Steve mellor is the guy in charge of home education for our area think he is based at feet but have not heard a word from him for over 4 years!
Thats hardly surprising as he left his post some time ago! You really must keep up if you intent to lambast every LA personnel!
I see if i can track down your group
Try Yahoo Groups or even - now here's a thought - look at the Hants County Council website and under Home Education you will find the link to our group. A little bit of co-operation goes a long way.
Did they shout at you when you phoned?
No
he would not come to the phone but he was in the office
Hardly surprising, as most Polititians dont answer the telephone themselves, that's what they have secretaries for
For future reference, it would be most helpful if you could at least leave some spaces between my comments and your responses. Makes it easier to read.
Regards
In case anybody wishes to know, Anon is in fact Peter Williams, a former painter of artificial limbs who lives in Alton. Those reading his comments might perhaps have formed their own opinion of why he has such difficulties with his local authority.
ReplyDeleteAhh Simon i wonded when you chip in the painter job for aritfcial limbs your be pleased to hear paid very good money! brought this house!
ReplyDeleteUncle Simon gets cross when home educators will not do as they are told by they Local LA and have the nerve to complain after all we do pay they wages Simon! not a word from them Simon where that school attendance order we want to burn it ON Dr Tony Ludlow coal fire like the last one! after that not a word from them but i though our son was not geting a suitable full time education?
JUlie
ReplyDeleteSorry to disappoint you, I think he left because he got a promotion and now works for West Sussex!
Promotion he should have been sacked MELLOR WAS RUBBISH AT HIS JOB. his co worker Belinda MOrris had no faith in him i bet she had a glass of wine when he left! I see if i can get in touch with West Sussex and tell them they got the wrong man for the job!
My own view his that Mellor thought he could escape from us we want our complaints answered by him.
eel free to share the name of your local library and I will ensure you have a display put up.
ReplyDeleteAlton Library try them.
guess it is down to which local radio you choose to listen to. Like education, it is all about choice.
its not about choice many parents have no choice but to home educate.some have to because the local school is rubbish where the choice they?
e spoke to the children and the parents and commented on their good behaviour. I dont think it was conditional he had to put it in writing. We had a display of the childrens work and was happy to listen when the children pointed what they had done.
If Kirk has not put it down in writing he can say he never said it! and he do that cos he is polititian we know they dont always tell the truth? or do you belive our sweet polotitians do?
The short answer is I dont know.
well thats not much good if you dont know what real action Kirk is going to take to help home educators.My guess is he do nothing like he always does!
you were on the local list you would be aware of her. She is the Elective Home Education Coordinator ,Education & Inclusion - Children's Services Department
What does that mean sounds like a fancy title to me? inclusion thats for children who skip school or children expelled? we not in that department she no help to us then?
o my knowledge she does not report to either. As far as I know Jack Cawtha's responsibility covers Seriously ill children, Emotionally vulnerable children and Pupils playing truent.
Jack cawthra is head of Inclusion he is in charge of the 3 area he does have an interst in ill children truants but he is still head of Inclusion and at the very least she would to run by any major ideas with him.
What progress have you made? I dont see any here?
Where are you based? Perhaps I can help?
Yes no progress here im afraid we in the Alton area.
do have it down in writing from David Kirk that no resources must be given to home educators!
Perhaps you would like to share that then with the local community so we can challenge it if needed.
We got the letter from Kirk saying no resources for home educators love to share it. now if he had just said that to us we not have been able to prove it but we got it in writing from him the funny thing was we nearly chucked his letters away thanks goodness we did not! kept all of his letters!
hardly surprising as he left his post some time ago! You really must keep up if you intent to lambast every LA personnel!
i must admit i dont pay quite has much attention to those fools now so missed the fact he left you have thought he would have wrote to say im going! got a letter from him wanting to know what exams the child will take age 7 and what quailfations we have to teach.
Its complaints we have with LA staff we must remember they are paid by us the tax payer to provide a service and so far it has been rubbish!
ee if i can track down your group
Try Yahoo Groups or even - now here's a thought - look at the Hants County Council website and under Home Education you will find the link to our group. A little bit of co-operation goes a long way.
I have a look at the link as for co-operation what will you really get in truth a few kind words a visit from Kirk and if your a group you may get assess to a science lab but only if your doing home education the right way? All home educators in Hampshire should get this not just a few!
or future reference, it would be most helpful if you could at least leave some spaces between my comments and your responses. Makes it easier to read.
Are you telling me off? Simon does that i fail his spelling test and do not do home education in the right way! What is the right way Simon?
its still got Steve Mellor name up on Hants web site as manger for Fleet area?
ReplyDeleteWill I receive funding for home education?
ReplyDeleteThe simple answer to this question is “No”. Please remember that LAs have no
legal responsibility or obligation to fund parents or carers who choose to
home educate. You will need to look at the costs that may be involved –
equipment, visits, books, tutors etc - and plan what you intend to do before home
educating. In common with many LAs, Hampshire does not provide direct funding
or resources (eg exercise or text books, pens, pencils or paper, home computers,
etc) to home educators
Thats from Hampshire County Council Web site!
Will I receive funding for home education?
ReplyDeleteThe simple answer to this question is “No”. Please remember that LAs have no
legal responsibility or obligation to fund parents or carers who choose to
home educate.
But you know that already. You write as if this is something that has just appeared. When my son was deregistered more than 20 years ago, the stance was the same.
If you choose not to avail yourself of the state school system, you take on the responsibility of funding the education you want your child to have.
In the same way you can subscribe to Private Health Car schemes if you are not satisfied with the NHS treatment on offer.
Or you may choose to own a car rather than use public transport.
Or send your child to Fee paying Private School rather than the local comp.
The LA have NEVER funded Home Ed. This is a financial obligation you factor in when you make the decision to take on the responsibility of Home Education.
Plus, of course, on the same page you copied those words from, is the link to your local Home Ed Group.
Why dont you come and meet up with other Home Educators next week - details on the front page of the hyperlink on Hants CC Website under Home Education.
its still got Steve Mellor name up on Hants web site as manger for Fleet area?
ReplyDeleteYou are right - it has - I have asked them to change it. I have no idea how long that takes but it is academic as now you know he no longer works there.
Alton Library try them.
ReplyDeleteI have - they would be delighted to have a display of home educated children's work up. I am just sorting out the dates that are available so look out for it.
many parents have no choice but to home educate.some have to because the local school is rubbish where the choice they?
There is always choice - the very large comprehensive school my son attended was rubbish. I had to work, as this was in the middle of a recession in the 80's and I treated school as child care whilst I was in full time employment. This is not to say I did not show a keen interest in what he was learning. I supplemented the school work with additional opportunities as other families do when Home Education is not a choice they can make either.
Where your children are concerned, you make the best decision you can at the time. Different circumstances dictate different choices. It is not true to say you HAVE to Home Educate if the local school is rubbish.
he is polititian we know they dont always tell the truth? or do you belive our sweet polotitians do?
Of course I dont. That is what being a politician is all about. The object of the exercise was to raise the profile of Home Educators in his eyes as to what we do - very impressive exam results - very articulate adults - very confident children.
Unfortunately most of his contact with Home Educators have not been positive. I dont expect miracles, but we have obtained some small monetary assistance, help with exam centres and changing the wording on some of the letters that go out to more reflect the role of the EWO.
Every long journey starts with small steps so we have been pro-active in contacting them, asking for the help we want, not accepting help they think we want. This is not conditional on being "known" or of following an approved system of work. It is open to all Home Educators who choose to avail themselves of it.
Jan is the Elective Home Education Coordinator ,Education & Inclusion - Children's Services Department
What does that mean sounds like a fancy title to me? inclusion thats for children who skip school or children expelled? we not in that department she no help to us then?
Go up a line - her title is Elective Home Education Co-ordinator. The next line down is the Department she works out of. Inclusion means all sorts of things. Within that Deptartment will be children who are being expelled, those who are sick, those who have additional needs that are not being met at present. Jan deals only within the Home Ed sector.
Yes no progress here im afraid we in the Alton area.
What progress do you want to see? If you have something specific in mind, perhsps you would like to share
only if your doing home education the right way? All home educators in Hampshire should get this not just a few!
Not sure what is the right way to Home Ed. In our little group of 100 or so we have a wide variety of children, some near genius and some definately not. Some Special Needs and Statemented, some just ordinary and average, some who are hot housed. Some using School in a Box very formally sticking to a timetable and some who wouldn't know a timetable if it got up and waved at them. I guess we cover all aspects of Home Ed. All are welcome.
Are you telling me off? Simon does that i fail his spelling test and do not do home education in the right way!
It was a kind request to leave a space between my comments and yours. It makes it easier to read.
The right way to home educate is if the education on offer is suitable and fit for purpose.
Regards
reply to Jaki Parson -It is true to say you have to home educate if the local school is rubbish or are you saying you just send your child to a rubbish school because thats all you can have take it or leave thats Simon way? of course if your rich you can pay for private eduation like most of our M.P/s do and many councllors no crap school for they children only the best! but if you want it tough luck! and also dont complain about it.What kind of chioce is that a rubbish school or nothing? thats what labour say chose you school but hang on a minute my local school is no good ahh well cant help you they!and also once you complain all other schools/head often find out about it from LA so you are the ngiven a label as trouble maker before you even been to the school.LA officers do this at Hampshire sending sly emails to people about the family!
ReplyDeleteWhat poor contact has Kirk had with home educators? did he say? did he let slip his real thoughts on home education that he thought home educated children where truants? and that he did not trust parents to do it?
The role of the EWS is to catch truants? home education should be of no interst to them!
Help with exams but only for groups like Julie not for all home educators in hampshire? i bet he never said that he help all home educators only those doing it the right way! what changes have bee nmade to letters sent out to home educators? i have not seen any?
We quite entitled to ask for funding sounds like you given up on that old Kirk wants money from government for checking up on home educators but no money to help them! just because they was no funding 20 years ago does not make it right!
How do we know Jan only deals with home educated children? who does she report to? who is her manger? is it that rascal Jack cawthra as we know he is hostile to home education.He lost educatinal work our son did including and art picture i think he chucked it away
lets have funding for a start from Kirk that will be progress! and nice letters sent from his his rubbish LA staff to home educators.
round here at one time it was inpossible to get an NHS dentist so people where forced to go private i think you would had to travel at least 15 miles to find a NHS dentist and they was a waiting list so where is the chioce if you had tooth ach what you going to do, wait?
it dont take five minutes to take down sly fox Steve Mellor name from web site so whats the delay?
i got it dowwn in writing the sort of education Trevor Walker wanted he is some sort of inpector of course we took no notice of him but it gives you an insight into his mind which is do home education like a state school level 2 he was on about? i have no idea what he his tlaking about do you? I later find out he was ex head of a school in special measures near to where Kirk Lives! Kirk lives in Andover.
i keep an eye out for Alton libary to put up work by home educators.
What meeting for home educators who will be they LA staff?EWS i would not trust them they report back to Kirk.
im sure your trying but i dont think your really get any way with them not for all home educators Kirk dont care about the Alton area cos he is for Andover abd the town council is liberal! Kirk given up on the Alton area!
are you saying you just send your child to a rubbish school because thats all you can have take it or leave thats Simon way?
ReplyDeleteRubbish schools exist. You have choices to make. Send your child with no support.
Send your child and support as much as is possible
Pay for a fee paying school
Remove from school and Home Educate
Move house
For the vast majority of families faced with this decision, financially it is not practical to move, pay privately for education or for one member to give up work to undertake Home Education.
Realistically, like us, most families have little choice other than to use their local school. However, with parental input our sons did as well as they were going to.
Education does not only take place in school or from age 5 - 16. 2 apprenticeships later, both sons have successful, but different, careers.
Help with exams but only for groups like Julie not for all home educators in hampshire?
Well how rude, talking about Julie as if she is running an exclusive club. Julie works extremely hard to ensure home educated children get the chance to study for and take exams. The only criteria is to turn up and do your homework. My daughter is too young to be thinking of exams at present but I am very greatful for people like Julie who put so much into helping other Home Educators.
what changes have bee nmade to letters sent out to home educators? i have not seen any?
As they go out to new home educators that is hardly surprising.
How do we know Jan only deals with home educated children?
Check out her job title. Elective Home Education Co-ordinator.
lets have funding for a start
That wont happen as you well know. By not using the state system, you are agreeing to take on the responsibilities - financial as well as educational - of your childs schooling
where is the chioce if you had tooth ach what you going to do, wait?
You do what everyone else does. You go to the nearest emergency NHS dental service - at a guess I would say it is Basingstoke Hospital.
it dont take five minutes to take down sly fox Steve Mellor name from web site so whats the delay?
Cant answer that - suggest you contact them direct if you are that bothered.
level 2 he was on about? i have no idea what he his tlaking about do you?
Assume you mean Key Stage 2 then that is just a benchmark that schools use. Children in the age bracket of approximately 7 - 9 are said to be working at Key Stage 2 ability.
im sure your trying but i dont think your really get any way with them not for all home educators Kirk dont care about the Alton area
Well I guess you appreciate that I am doing what any reasonable parent would do for their childs education. I am pro-active in contacting the LA in finding out what help there is available for me. There is assistance if you treat the LA staff with the same sort of respect that you want to be treated with yourself.
In fact if you want to be picky, I have done more for Alton in the 4 minutes I was on the telephone this afternoon to the local library than you appear to have done in the however many years you have been home educating in the town.
You seem determined to find fault with anything and everyting and want funding to support the choices you have made.
Regards
reply to Jaki Parsons -rubbish schools exist so just get on with it? tough luck?
ReplyDeleteim sure Julie does work hard for her group and i expect you to defend her! but Julie has got HCC to give her group exam assess and assess to a school? because it is a group and doing home education the right way?Where is the assess for ALL home educated children in Hampshire to take exams?
so people with tooth ach who cant afford private care much go to basingstoke? what if yo cant drive? a bus?
Steve Mellor Name has not been taking down why not? any new home educator would look t that web site and his names his still on it why?
you done well with th libray but is that not the easy choice?
There is No assistance for home educated children in the Alton area
it is LA staff who do not treat parents in the Alton area with respect i have the letters signed and dated by LA staff you want to see them?
Anon said "Julie has got HCC to give her group exam assess and assess to a school"
ReplyDeleteActually we currently use a range of places for exam access, some state schools, some private; that has always been the case for all home educators anywhere. The majority of home educators in our group are using an affable private school where they are charged only the cost of the exams.A few years ago we ended up travelling around the country (up to Manchester) to get access to a particular exam board! A bit of work down here has made things better since then.
We have now been offered exam accesss through HCC to a particular centre, which will also register to offer IGCSEs (although their own candidates don't take them) and I imagine that this centre will be open to all in the area. In addition since the govt has just announced that LAs can fund GCSEs anyway, I imagine it will be a lot easier to get free access to exams from 2011/2012 in a state school in your town. We (ie Jaki and me and others from groups in Hants) will be seeking clarification as to how this is going to work once the LA staff are back at work in the next few weeks.
When we know more, I will suggest that Jan Lewis sends out a mailing to all known home educators in Hants, although as the scheme isn't being funded until 2011/2012 this won't be sorted out for a little while, I imagine!
Julie-are LA staff on Hoilday? i thought a thursday is a normal working day?
ReplyDeleteI see no contact detail for Jan Lewis on Hants is web site?
I still dont understand what her job is? what does Jan Lewis do? we never heard from her.
how can they offer assess to all home educators when Kirk was very clear in his letter NO funding for home educators?
Anon said "how can they offer assess to all home educators when Kirk was very clear in his letter NO funding for home educators?"
ReplyDeletebut that was 5 years ago, we are talking about an announcement yesterday!
Julie-said but that was 5 years ago/we are talking about an announcement made yesterday!
ReplyDeleteBut I not seen anything from Kirk to suggest that he will provide access for all home educators to exam centres or help with funding. David Kirk was very clear no resourses for home educators.peter will write and ask him about this matter.We try and find out what Jan Lewis does as well because i do not understand what her job is.Does any one know? is she on hoilday as well?
Yes, she mentioned she was on leave this week; and since the DCSF only made the exam funding thing public yesterday I expect it will take a few months to get sorted - it isn't due to start until 2011/2012
ReplyDeleteJulie said Yes she mentioned she was on leave this week. leave that means hoilday? funny time to go on hoilday unless she gone aboard? Spain is nice.on her wage maybe she gone to an island?
ReplyDeleteI still dont understand what Jan Lewis does ? do you know Julie? They no contact details on Hants web page for her? we never heard from her?
it will take months to sort out for exam funding?or years? if Kirk agrees? i suspect your have to go though a load of hoops/ box ticking and doing home education the right way to have any chance of funding for exams?
Peter will write to him about resourses.it be short something along the lines of what resources does Hants County council provide for home educated children/parents. and his answer will be? nothing! apart from if you want a visit from EWS but they job is to catch children skipping school? i want funding not a visit from EWS!
you done well with th libray but is that not the easy choice?
ReplyDeleteHow patronising you are - you live in Alton and yet you have never arranged to have a display of work by local Home Educated children.
I have accomplished more in the brief phone call I made to the library than you appear to have done. Assuming of course that you have some work that you would like displayed.
You are determined to be objectionable, even when questions have been answered you ask them again.
I hapen to know Jan Lewis is not on holiday in Spain. She is at home.
I use Hampshire Wardrobe to supplement the History lessons I offer to ALL home educated children who sign up for the class. Details on Hants CC website
You could also use the same services if you spent as much time finding out what was available locally for you as you do posting inane comments on Simons blog
You still seem very bothered about Steve Mellors name being on the website - I would suggest you contact them direct
You keep on saying you have never heard of Jan Lewis and yet a couple of hundred Home Educators in Hampshire have, maybe you should join a local group and meet up
Please use the space bar to make a clear distinction between your paragraphs, it makes it easier to read and respond to.
Jaki