Saturday, 26 June 2010

Autonomous 'learning'

An accusation not infrequently levelled at me is that I only imperfectly understand the concept of autonomous education. Now while it is of course true that I was connected with the Free Schools movement forty years ago and also familiar with the writings of people like Paul Goodman and John Holt before some of those who criticise me in this way were even born, perhaps there is something in the notion. Maybe I have not kept up to date with the latest developments in the field of this sort of education. I had occasion recently to visit Maire Stafford's blog. I was there to look at her latest struggle with having a Freedom of Information request fulfilled. The gist of this is that she has been sent a document and wishes to complain about it. The only thing is that she had not had time to read it and decide just what she was complaining about. Most of us approach the matter from the other direction; we first read the document and only then decide if we wish to complain. Still, that is by the by. Maire Stafford gives a brief account of the idea of autonomous education on her blog and so I shall take this as being a fairly up to date and modern view of the matter.

Here is a quotation from Stafford's exposition which features in many such accounts. A child:

picks up ideas and skills which are significant in their culture in the same way as they learn to walk

I have seen this strange statement so often, that I think we may safely take it that this is pretty standard for those who follow this pedagogical system. This faulty analogy lies at the very heart of autonomous education. Let us look at the idea that a child 'learns' to walk.

Within twenty minutes of the birth of a foal it will be standing up. In no time at all it will be walking about. It has not 'learned' to do this; its doing so is simply a consequence of being born a quadruped. It has neither been taught to do so, nor has it had to learn by imitation or example. this is simply what this particular organism does. Similarly, the weaver bird of Africa will tie knots in order to fasten a nest to a branch. It does not have to do so; this ability is coded in the genes. Hatch a weaver bird egg in the laboratory and then raise the bird in isolation and it will tie knots if given grass. It does not 'learn' to do this.

In precisely the same way, the human baby, a biped, will stand up at a certain age and then start walking. It does this in stages; rolling, bottom shuffling, hanging onto furniture and so on. The process is slower than in a foal, taking months rather than minutes, but it is essentially the same. The baby does this because it is a biped, not because it has 'learned' to do so. Obviously, the baby has never seen anybody bottom shuffling or staggering round the room hanging onto the furniture; It is not learning from example! Because the whole thing takes so much longer than in deer and foals, we have the illusion that the baby has 'learned' to walk. One might as well say that an oak tree has 'learned' to carry out photosynthesis! All living things have certain things that they will do, whether it is converting CO2 and water into sugars , walking on four legs or walking on two. these things are a natural feature of the organism, not something which has to be learned.

How different is the case of something like place value in Western mathematics. Here is an idea which has only been around for a few centuries. Looking at a string of digits such as 7237, we realise at once that the 7pick up ideas on the left is actually worth a thousand times as much as the 7 on the right. This is a very strange idea which certainly does have to be learned. It is very different therefore from standing up and walking.

This confusion between on the one hand a natural feature of the human organism which is transmitted by DNA and is inherent in the creature, and on the other the cultural inheritance which is transmitted by external means is a very common one in those who follow autonomous education. It is the root cause of many of the problems which I have with this system. If those who profess to follow it can begin with such a simple and fundamental error, what hope for the edifice erected upon such a foundation? Because if the basis for the whole method is that children, pick up ideas....in the same way that they learn to walk, then clearly, the whole thing is based upon a nonsense. Walking is something natural which comes from within the child; reading and mathematics are something artificial come from outside. The two cases are wholly different.

45 comments:

  1. Simon says: Obviously, the baby has never seen anybody [...] staggering round the room hanging onto the furniture

    Not necessarily. After a few pints...?

    Anyway, perhaps learning language (as opposed to learning to talk, as in making the appropriate sounds, which I believe includes a similar amount of hard-wiring as walking) might have been a better example for Maire to use?

    Our 18-month-old has 'picked up the idea' of putting a verbal 's' on the end of nouns to denote plurals and possessives. No teaching involved. On the other hand, he thinks sheeps is the plural of sheep. If I was into autonomous education, would I refuse to teach him that this was wrong (unless he asked)? I don't know. I get the impression 'autonomous education' means a different thing to each person that uses the term.

    Anyway, I'm not a strong proponent of autonomous education myself, nor a detractor, but it seems to me you're not so much guilty of imperfectly misunderstanding it, but of deliberately misrepresenting it. Why that is, I couldn't say.

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  2. In my experience, the assertion that how a child learns to walk will naturally transfer to all areas of learning has caused much confusion.

    I think children have a "natural curiosity" that's real enough. A child doesn't need to be shown how to notice and become intrigued by the squiggly lines that we call written language. But I certainly wouldn't stand back and hope that this initial curiosity will one day turn of its own accord into learning to read, which does seem to be one approach to "autonomous education".

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  3. “All living things have certain things that they will do, whether it is converting CO2 and water into sugars , walking on four legs or walking on two. these things are a natural feature of the organism, not something which has to be learned.”

    I think you might need to qualify ‘a natural feature of the organism’ Simon. It’s certainly true that most oak trees photosynthesise, and that most foals and human infants learn to walk, but there the similarity ends.

    Photosynthesis takes place if certain chemicals co-occur in certain ratios in certain environments - ‘learning’ is not involved at all. In the same way a foal does not have to ‘learn’ anything in order for its muscle physiology to function.

    Walking, however, is considerably more complex than photosynthesis or muscle contraction, involving biological interactions at many levels, from the molecular to the social. If the foal fails to stand due to a physiological abnormality with its muscle fibres, or if the mother does not lick it or nuzzle it sufficiently, it might well fail to learn to walk. Mammalian bipeds take longer to learn to walk than quadrupeds because they have an inherently unstable stance and gait. They can remain upright only because this instability is compensated for by fine-tuned vestibular feedback that has to be developed through multiple trials, ie it has to be learned. The reason most children learn to walk rather than continuing to shuffle or crawl is because it is a more efficient and more comfortable means of mobility, which they discover through trial and error. If the opportunity to learn to walk is impaired - whether the child is tied to a chair or kept in a restricted space, for example, or has poor vestibular or muscle function - it might well not happen at all.

    Language acquisition, similarly, is a complex interaction between what is probably a hard-wired tendency to mimic sounds, the motivation to do so, and the availability of sounds to imitate. Facility with language will vary widely, depending on factors ranging from efficiency of auditory processing to the linguistic input the child receives.


    In all cases of skill or knowledge acquisition the child needs a reason to learn, the ability to learn, and relevant informational input. The ease with which the child learns will depend on the complexity of the information involved. Walking, for a biped, is in informational terms more complex than for a quadruped, so takes bipeds longer; learning to speak is informationally more complex than learning to walk, so takes children longer; some aspects of reading and mathematics are more complex still, so take longer than learning to speak. Clearly some skills require information from other people before the child can acquire them, but even with no explicit teaching at all, children will still learn. They might not learn everything other people want them to learn, but that’s a different matter entirely.

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  4. "you're not so much guilty of imperfectly misunderstanding it, but of deliberately misrepresenting it"

    It was for this very reason that i decided to use the words of a fairly well known home educating parent. The case is very much the same with speaking as it is with walking. Your child is not making a mistake when he says 'sheeps' Indeed, this proves that he is working from a programme in his brain, as opposed to learning by imitation. I am guessing that you do not yourself say 'sheeps'.

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  5. "most foals and human infants learn to walk"

    A foal who is not nuzzled and actually removed form any further contact with either the dam of any other horse will still stand up and move about. It is not 'learning' to do so. Humans have an extended period of childhood, but I dare say you might know more about neotony than I do myself!

    "learning to speak is informationally more complex than learning to walk, so takes children longer"

    Another false analogy. The process of speaking is not comparable with the process of reading and writing, although they are superficially similar in that both concern langauge.

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  6. To say a child 'picks up ideas and skills which are significant in their culture in the same way as they learn to walk' is correct.

    When a child is brought up by dogs, it will walk on all fours and bark.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljVd6XS-J0s

    A feral child learns to behave like a dog, in the same way that your child learned to behave like a human. The 'innate ability' is the ability to mimic.

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  7. Another false analogy. The process of speaking is not comparable with the process of reading and writing, although they are superficially similar in that both concern langauge.

    This actually is very comparable - a baby must watch + listen for a long time before it starts to talk , and way before the baby talks he or she will be understanding what is said. Similarly a child who reads + is read to alot will learn to write. My nine year old has been reading for about 3 or 4 years now, and can now write really neatly and spell alot of words. I haven't done any writing or spelling teaching - although I have been on hand to help with spellings when needed... the amount of time she's spent writing must be teeny compared to children who have daily reading + writing lessons, and although I don't know whether she's "ahead" or "behind" in national curriculm terms I can't see her ever having a problem writing anything she needs to in the future.

    Thanks AM and Suzy G for your interesting messages.

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  8. Whether or not you believe that foals 'learn' to walk would depend on your definition of learning. One could categorize a chemical feedback loop as 'learning' technically, I suppose, but in animals it usually involves feedback via the brain, leading to a modification of behaviour or in retained information.

    There is indeed evidence to suggest that stepping per se is a mammalian reflex (see Thelen and Smith on this), but in order to use walking for a purpose (to get from a to b, follow a parent), the horse or human has to learn how to utilise that reflex. The motor cortex is one of the most plastic areas of the brain and can change structurally within minutes, so it is quite feasible that the young horse gets sufficient sensory-motor feedback during its first minutes of life to go from a stepping reflex resulting from the mechanics of its leg, to walking.If you believe that the whole process of walking is a reflex response, I would be very interested to learn about the pathway.

    And why isn't speaking comparable to reading and writing? They are all learned skills dependent on informational input.

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  9. "I have seen this strange statement so often, that I think we may safely take it that this is pretty standard for those who follow this pedagogical system. This faulty analogy lies at the very heart of autonomous education."

    Hardly. If you are going to argue against AE you need more than a single sentence. How about this description of AE?

    http://www.home-education.org.uk/ac/article-ae.htm

    Autonomous means self directed. There is no reason for AE to be limited to "picks up ideas and skills which are significant in their culture in the same way as they learn to walk". I think it's more accurate to say they will pick up ideas for skills and knowledge they want to learn and then set about learning them (with any necessary help) if the right environment is provided. Unless you are suggesting that Marie's children will never want to learn about anything and Marie would refuse to help them if they asked or showed an interest, you have raised a straw man argument.

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  10. "are suggesting that Marie's children will never want to learn about anything and Marie would refuse to help them if they asked or showed an interest,"

    I think you will find that she sent all her children to school! I am guessing that this means that she felt that the best way to help them learn was to get teachers to teach them.

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  11. Why are you discussing an individual home educator as though they are autonomous education? Do you intend to discuss AE or Marie? BTW, AE can include school if that's what the child chooses; one of mine chose that method for a while.

    ReplyDelete
  12. "Why are you discussing an individual home educator as though they are autonomous education? Do you intend to discuss AE or Marie?"

    I chose one home educator's view of autonomous
    education because there seem to be many different versions on offer and the one offered by this individual included many of the features that I have seen elsewhere. I am accused of not understanding the idea and setting up straw men and so thought it a good do use the actual words from one person to explore AE. Somebody then began asking about Maire's children, which rather brought them into the discussion. I myself would not hva mentioned her children as they didn't seem relevant. Since somebody posting clearly thought that her children were worth talking about; I responded.

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  13. "And why isn't speaking comparable to reading and writing? They are all learned skills dependent on informational input."

    Popular misconception. babies are born with linguistic ability. They can distinguish sounds, produce all sorts of noises and have a desire to communicate with other members of their species. Decoding an alphabetic script is an entirely articifial process. this is because the whole business of making marks on paper to represent languiage is artificial and was only invented a few thousand years ago, long after we began communicating by noises. Many animals us noises and getures to communicate; none read and write. One is an inbuilt abaility, the other must be learned.

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  14. "When a child is brought up by dogs, it will walk on all fours and bark."

    I don't have time to go into this in detail, except to remark that there is a lot of controversy about the whole business of feral children. This started with the so-called wolf chi in India. A lot of these cases are children who had learning difficulties, some may have been abandoned because of that.

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  15. My son just asked me how to spell exterminate as he had decided to draw a Dalek. He wanted to do it in capital letters and checked with my a couple of times as to how to form them.
    I obliged. Is this autonomous education? If so - what is wrong with it.

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  16. Depends what you mean by 'linguistic ability'. Yes babies can distinguish sounds, produce all sorts of noises and have a desire to communicate with other members of their species, but given that the child often needs to be told explicitly what words mean, and that new words are being invented all the time, I don't see that it's any less artificial than written language.

    The brain doesn't make a distinction between a 'natural' thing and an 'artificial' thing, it simply makes associations between things. If a child is exposed to a set of sounds or a set of written symbols in conjunction with a particular object or even often enough, it will begin to associate the two.

    Obviously written language came later in human history, but as far as the brain is concerned writing is simply a visual representation of spoken language. Children tend to have more problems with it because it's another layer of complexity on top of spoken language. Alphabetic writing also requires that words are built up from individual sounds, the opposite of the way in which language is acquired. Unless of course, you can't speak and learn to sign. Is signing 'natural'?

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  17. "Is signing 'natural'?"

    Very interesting point. Some say that the shaking of the head to indicate a negative is a relic from turning the head away to refuse the breast in babyhood, which would I suppose make it natural. Many animals use gestures and signs to communicate meaning. Smiles and snarls are perhaps signs of this sort. Alphabets are not though. They can have no natural origin of this sort. Babies smile at a certain stage and use language at another stage; they do not devise place value or alphabets though!

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  18. "Here is a quotation from Stafford's exposition which features in many such accounts. A child:

    picks up ideas and skills which are significant in their culture in the same way as they learn to walk"

    Could we have a link to the original article so that we can view the comment in context?

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  19. "I chose one home educator's view of autonomous
    education because there seem to be many different versions on offer and the one offered by this individual included many of the features that I have seen elsewhere."

    What about the alternative view of AE offered? This seems a more typical view of AE in my experience though, to be fair to Marie, it's difficult to make much from a single sentence out of context.

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  20. Here is the link to Maire Stafford's blog:

    http://maire-staffordshire.blogspot.com/

    The post about her view of autonomous education was made yesterday.

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  21. "What about the alternative view of AE offered?"

    Spare me, not Jan Fortune-Wood! I am quite familiar with this and will move onto it when I have covered a little more of Maire Stafford's ideas.

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  22. Having looked at Marie's site I can see that you have misrepresented her through selective quoting. It's clear from her blog that she does not rule out teaching her children if that is what they want.

    Certainly I seen my children pick up various ideas and skills in much the same way was we learn to walk and talk - through experimentation and perseverance (you don't need to be too literal with a simile, I mean, if someone says 'he swims like a fish', they don't have to have fins). How many people have learnt to use computers in this way? I know my children have learnt to use MSN in this way as nobody has shown them how to use it. However, they have also learnt by working through a text book themselves or with help from a parent or classes and workshops. They are still autonomously educated because they have chosen their interests and how they study them.

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  23. Certainly I *have* seen

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  24. "It's clear from her blog that she does not rule out teaching her children if that is what they want."

    Once again, somebody is introducing the topic of Maire Stafford's children, as opposed to the theoretical basis for autonomous education which she outlines. Since this subject is raised, I suppose that I might mention that Maire Stafford sent all her children to school. The older ones remained at school until the usual leaving age. The youngest was withdrawn a couple of years ago. There is a great age gap between the youngest daughter and her brothers. This provides a psychological rather than a pedagogical reason for the decision to remove her from school and keep her at home with her mother. I am not sure why people keep talking about her children when I am trying to keep the subject focused purely upon her ideas. Obviously though, if somebody tries to use her children to illustrate this woman's attitude towards autonomous education, then I feel it right to respond by pointing out any inconsistency. I would prefer to keep on the topic of ideas though, rather than personal accounts.

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  25. I do find your posts a bit confusing Simon! Why does a person having a "great age gap" between children provide a psychological reason of a mother wanting her children nearby (perfectly natural state of affairs anyway!) + deciding to stop sending a child to school and provide a home based education instead? Am I being slow - please explain!?

    Perhaps this lady's reasons for providing a home based education, and later for allowing her child to register with a school might be on the blog... you could check it out + find out?

    I haven't been following the blog you're discussing but having two automomously educated children - one schooled and one not, I'm struggling to see what the point of your discussion here is - assuming it isn't to do down Marie Stafford's ideas and/or self directed learning in general of course...

    Autonomous simply means being in charge of oneself... possibly different families interpret this differently in that some allow the children to be more in charge of themselves than others - i.e. in all aspects of life rather than just education. New home educators that I've met sometimes think of autonomous as being the same as unstructured so this could add to the confusion.

    Also, personally, I call our education autonomous, but I also consider my own feelings when we're deciding what to do with our time (as a family) for example, I don't want to be sitting around at home while my children do things on their own all day - if this was to happen I would rather they go to school or a child minder + I could do some other work (paid or voluntary) so they need to take that into account when thinking about what to do.

    I think you might have written previously about whether going to a school can be part of an autonomous education... I look at it in a similiar way to the children having to take into account the views + feelings of the whole family, other than just their own. The school is there, and the people running it and working whithin it have decided to run it a certain way for lots of reasons. The child can decide whether to join in with the school and accept their rules/attempt to get what they want out of the school.. or they can decide not to. They can even go for a while + see what they make of it, maybe leave or even try to change things that don't work for them if they can. The same as joining any club really, only school is a bit of a time consuming "take over your life" club!!

    So, does that help to explain autonomous education, or do you already understand the concept but think that in practice children simply won't learn what you think they ought to learn if unrestricted from directing their own education?

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  26. " Why does a person having a "great age gap" between children provide a psychological reason of a mother wanting her children nearby (perfectly natural state of affairs anyway!) + deciding to stop sending a child to school and provide a home based education instead? Am I being slow - please explain!? "

    Why do people seem so keen to discuss the personal life of the woman, rather than her ideas about autonomous education? There is in any case no mystery about this. She had boys at a fairly early age who went to school in the usual way of things and remained there until the traditional leaving age. In later life, when it had been more or less assumed that her family was complete, she had another baby; a girl. many mothers who have only had boys, yearn for a girl. So it was in this case. She had never given home education a thought up until this point. the child was sent to school and the mother greatly missed her. She felt, for perfectly understandable reasons bereft when the kid started school. A problem developed, we need not go into details, and the mother jumped at the chance to deregister the child and have her back at home with her. There then followed an extensive justification for this course of action, by providing a backdated devotion to home education, hitherto unsuspected by her friends and relatives. Like many converts to a cause, her zeal is far greater than those who have held the belief for years. This is often the case, not just with autonomous education, but also religions like Islam and Catholicism. This really is all that we need to say about the family life of this person and I shall not be responding to any further questions or remarks.

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  27. "Once again, somebody is introducing the topic of Maire Stafford's children, as opposed to the theoretical basis for autonomous education which she outlines."

    Two sentences from my message related to Marie. These were to dispute a comment made by you. I did not mention her children at all. The rest was theoretical and about my children. Did you think I was talking about Marie's children? I'll repeat it again, just in case. This section refers to my children and the theory of AE. None of it refers to any one else's children.

    Certainly I seen my children pick up various ideas and skills in much the same way was we learn to walk and talk - through experimentation and perseverance (you don't need to be too literal with a simile, I mean, if someone says 'he swims like a fish', they don't have to have fins). How many people have learnt to use computers in this way? I know my children have learnt to use MSN in this way as nobody has shown them how to use it. However, they have also learnt by working through a text book themselves or with help from a parent or classes and workshops. They are still autonomously educated because they have chosen their interests and how they study them.

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  28. The question is not Fiona, whether or not children will pick up various ideas and skills with no prompting from anybody else. All children do this; it is the rule rather than the exception. My purpose in quoting from Maire Staffod's credo, as found on her blog, was to examine the idea that this is in some way better than structured and stystematic education as planned by adults rather than the children.

    In other words, that such things as using MSN, playing tiddly winks or even on occasion more academic skills might be acquired spontaneously is beyond dispute. What is in question is whether or not it is wise to promote this way of acquiring knowledge and skills as a being better than convetional teaching. It is this which I find doubtful; not that the thing can and does happen in a patchy and somewhat random fashion in most families, both home educating and schooling.

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  29. "In other words, that such things as using MSN, playing tiddly winks or even on occasion more academic skills might be acquired spontaneously is beyond dispute."

    But AE does not have to be limited to spontaneously learnt skills. It can of course include academic courses and structures. The heart of AU is self-directed learning, not "picks up ideas and skills which are significant in their culture in the same way as they learn to walk", as you appear to think. This is your straw man.

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  30. It looks to me like it's you who's keen to discuss this lady- You've managed to get in loads of critism before flouncing out of the discussion... Please re- read: Why does a person having a "great age gap" between children provide a psychological reason of a mother wanting her children nearby (perfectly natural state of affairs anyway!) + deciding to stop sending a child to school and provide a home based education instead? Am I being slow - please explain!?

    I'm not asking you to discuss this lady! Please stop - you're not being very nice! Also (obviously I hope) no need to repeat your views about this individual lady's great age gap between children meant that she was HEing for pschological reasons.

    Whatever do you mean by psychological reasons anyway! Here you implied that this particular lady was looking after her own interests and NOT the childs - please note - YOU wrote about her in this way, you were discussing her, it's natural that you will get responses to what you've said. You may have said that you were only discussing her IDEAS but that's not what you were doing at all.

    My post was really long and for the majority of it I was discussing autonomous education, or trying to explain it I suppose... I hope it was helpful or at least thath you read it.

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  31. The question is not Fiona, whether or not children will pick up various ideas and skills with no prompting from anybody else. All children do this; it is the rule rather than the exception. My purpose in quoting from Maire Staffod's credo, as found on her blog, was to examine the idea that this is in some way better than structured and stystematic education as planned by adults rather than the children.

    AE is seperate from structured and unstructured education. It just means not being told what to learn by people who think they know better than you, with no choice in the matter.

    AE that transpires to be completely unstrucured can be better for alot of children, equally lots of children will trust that their parents will provide a structured education that they enjoy + is relevant + beneficial to them. If they are free to say they want what they're doing to change, or that they don't want to do or study a certain thing, then their education is autonomous.

    Often younger children will want to do something more structured as they get older, my daughter started studying more formally not long before her ninth birthday + she's enjoyed most of the things we've done. If she wants to be less structured later or more or the same that's fine too!

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  32. Curious, Fiona. You say:

    "Perhaps this lady's reasons for providing a home based education, and later for allowing her child to register with a school might be on the blog... you could check it out + find out?"

    Today, you say:

    "I'm not asking you to discuss this lady!"

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  33. "This confusion between on the one hand a natural feature of the human organism which is transmitted by DNA and is inherent in the creature, and on the other the cultural inheritance which is transmitted by external means is a very common one in those who follow autonomous education."

    So is it not human nature to be curious, to want to learn and gain knowledge? Does curiosity have to be transmitted by external means? I think it is and I think it would be difficult to stop most children learning in an appropriate and rich environment. If my child asks to be taught to read I will teach them (and have done so). AE is not against transmissive education, just transmissive education against the child's will.

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  34. Remember the context Simon! It seemed to me that you didn't know, I suggested you might be able to find out by reading more of the blog - sorry if that seemed to you like I was asking you to discuss the lady concerned.

    I hope you found the info I gave you about autonomy helpful.

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  35. "So is it not human nature to be curious, to want to learn and gain knowledge? Does curiosity have to be transmitted by external means? I think it is and I think it would be difficult to stop most children learning in an appropriate and rich environment."

    I think curiosity is natural - not transmitted by external means. I really must start proof reading, even if it is just a blog comment! It should at least make sense.

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  36. It rather depends upon what you mean by 'curiosity'. If you mean the desire to explore one's environment and touch, taste and see new things, then of course this is true of humans as it is of most living things. Kittens do this, so do insects. If by curiosity you mean wondering about square roots and the chemical composition of stars, that it less certain. I think that this type of curiosity can be and possibly has to be, taught.

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  37. "I think that this type of curiosity can be and possibly has to be, taught."

    Really? We really must live in different worlds. I just cannot imagine a child without intellectual curiosity. They may not be curious about the things you require them to be curious about, but that's a different issue.

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