Thursday 26 August 2010

The topsy-turvy world of the home educators

It isn't hard to see sometimes why local authority officers get a bit ratty with certain home educating parents. Often, the reason is that these parents are working to a set of standards and beliefs which are pretty well diametrically opposed to what everybody else in the UK thinks. An exaggeration? Not really. let's look at a few specific examples.

Almost everybody in Britain regards education as a way to get on in the world. Formal qualifications are accepted as being a useful tool to demonstrate knowledge and ability and to help in getting a good job, training course or university place. When I suggested this over the last couple of days, I was pounced on at once. In fact, according to several home educators, formal qualifications can actually prevent one from getting a job or advancing into higher education. Some home educating parents see them as a positive hindrance and cannot see why anybody would bother with examinations at all. Here is what one person had to say:

A stack of A*s might help if you intend to compete for places at RG universities or blue chip management trainee places after graduation, but they could reduce your chances with local companies looking for someone who is likely to stay with them, rather than disappear the moment they get a better offer from elsewhere.

Here is somebody else who thinks that having GCSEs might not be a good idea:

gaining one set of qualifications will reduce opportunities to gain others and may close or reduce opportunities in *some* employment routes,

And another;

often people with no or very few exams results is a better bet as he/she is more likely to stay in the job long term!


All these people were commenting on what I thought was the fairly uncontroversial suggestion that having five GCSEs at grades A*-C was better for a teenager's prospects than not having any GCSEs at all! It is this sort of thing which makes some rational people who are sympathetic towards home education (and indeed some dedicated home educators themselves) bang their heads up and down on their desks in frustration.

Here is another instance. Almost without exception, parents and teachers in this country feel that it is a good thing for children to start reading at an early age. Not only does this help in their thinking skills, it also enables them to learn through books and other printed material, as well as expanding their vocabulary, increasing their attention span and enabling them to learn to spell painlessly. Almost every parent and teacher in the country would be worried and disturbed if children were unable to read at the age of twelve or thirteen. Some home educating parents though seem almost to revel in the fact that their children cannot read by the age at which everybody else's kids are starting secondary school. They refuse to see this as a problem and insist that it is the doctrinaire ideologues of the orthodox educational establishment who are at fault for expecting such a thing.

These are just two examples; I could give many more. What this means is that when teachers and local authority officers come into contact with such parents, there is little common ground. This can result in mutual frustration and anger, because even the most rudimentary elements of an education such as a curriculum, are viewed by some of these parents as part of a sinister plot to harm their particular style of education. It is extraordinarily difficult to have a meaningful dialogue with those whose world-view is so different from everybody else. One finds the same thing when talking to Scientologists or Jehovah's Witnesses. Indeed, some of the more extreme and dedicated of these parents put one in mind of the followers of a particularly outlandish religion. Just as I long to say to the person selling the Watchtower 'You don't really believe all that nonsense, do you?', so too I would like to ask these parents 'You don't really think that having five GCSEs at grades A*-C could be a bad thing for a teenager, do you?'. Evidently, they do and there is no more to be said about the matter.

No wonder that most local authorities are calling for additional legal powers to monitor and supervise home education. Parents who believe that the possession of GCSEs might jeopardise or harm employment prospects or hinder progression into higher education. Others who deny the wisdom of teaching children to read and write before they become teenagers. Still others whose ideology brings them into conflict with current case law which touches upon home education. Take the simple need for a statement of educational intent for the coming year, a suggested requirement which provoked howls of protest and a chorus of condemnation in some quarters. What does the law say about this? In the judgement in the case of R v Secretary of State for education, ex Parte Talmud Torah Machzikei Hadass School Trust in 1985, Mr Justice Woolf ruled that an 'efficient' education was one which ' 'achieves what it sets out to achieve'. This is one of the key cases of precedent which establish in law what is meant by an 'efficient' and 'suitable' education. Since home educating parents, like all other parents in the UK, must cause their children to receive an efficient education and since this must be one which 'achieves what it sets out to achieve', it follows logically that all home educating parents must be setting out to achieve certain aims in the education which they are providing. Otherwise of course, they could hardly know later whether or not they have achieved 'what they set out to achieve'. This shows clearly that they must have a set of aims and that there can be no objection to them writing those aims down and sharing them with others.

Until some parents make a few alterations to their views on education, I cannot see that conflict with local authorities is likely to diminish. Speaking for myself, I can readily understand why local authority officers find that dealing with certain parents has a nightmarish, Alice in Wonderland quality.

35 comments:

  1. You might understand the perspective of LA officers, Simon, but then you clearly didn't understand what I and another contributor had to say about how qualifications close down, as well as open up, job options.

    Given the outcomes of 'what everybody else in the UK thinks', and the 'nightmarish, Alice in Wonderland quality' of some of our schools, I don't think the origin of any conflict necessarily lies with home educators.

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  2. I haven't read all the comments on previous posts about this, but has anyone talked about people opting to make better use of the time normally taken to prepare and study for exams?

    If a young teenager has a skill or interest - for which GCSEs and other qualifications might be irrelevant - on which they want to work exclusively, which will become their self-employed career, then insisting as a parent that they limit all that and work towards GCSEs instead could be harming their chances of enjoying a profitable working life when they're older.

    I'm not speaking hypothetically: I have grown up children for whom this was the case. Making them work towards exams would have hindered, not helped, their successful outcomes as young adults.

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  3. Webb says-Until some parents make a few alterations to their views on education, I cannot see that conflict with local authorities is likely to diminish. Speaking for myself, I can readily understand why local authority officers find that dealing with certain parents has a nightmarish, Alice in Wonderland quality.

    How about Local authority officers making a few alterations to their view on home education?
    It is local authority officers who started it their wanted a war with home educators and their got it! and the best bit is we won the war! as there are no plans to bring forward any new laws on home education by the con/lib government!

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  4. 'What this means is that when teachers and local authority officers come into contact with such parents, there is little common ground.'

    I'm sure this is true, but it has many causes. Here's an eg of one.

    One local LA visitor routinely tells families that 'Parents cannot do GCSE's with their kids. They need to be back in school at age 14'. He seems to believe it is actually impossible for HE'd kids to take GCSE's from home. He didn't even seem to know that the exams could be sat as external candidates in many local institutions. He is hopelessly misinformed.

    Fortunately, most families he comes into contact with know several of us who had indeed got their kids through GCSE's successfully, so were not put off by the LA officer's ignorance.

    That is the kind of thing which contributes to the mutual hostility, Simon.

    Another problem is the LA's seeming inability to learn from past experiences. So, when 16 yo HE'd kids go on to excel at college, 6th forms or employment, they are not interested in keeping records because, well, they are not their concern any more.

    Parents who phone up or write to the LA with such news (often delievered in a yah boo sucks sort of way, tis true) are given the impression that the LA could not care less how well their kids were doing post 16.

    Even parents with a track record of older HE'd kids who've moved on to exciting patures new are totally ignored when the LA is dealing with the younger ones.

    One LA woman we knew KEPT telling a friend's family (with 6 kids, all of whom eventually went on to unis) that they 'needed to do more written work and to date it'. (?????) The parents politely explained that she'd said the same things asbout the older kids too, but they'd been fine.

    The LA visitor seemed incapable of learning.

    There are so many reasons for the lack of common ground between LA's and HE'ers. If LA's showed willingness to LEARN about HE, then they'd be in a position to offer advice and to perhaps have that advice accepted.

    Mrs Anon

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  5. "Some home educating parents though seem almost to revel in the fact that their children cannot read by the age at which everybody else's kids are starting secondary school."

    I didn't revel in it, at times I worried, but they gained an English GCSE four years after learning to read, can spell better than I can and are now at university (something I never achieved despite learning to read at 4). Why is this a problem?

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  6. Very thought provoking, Mrs Anon. I don't doubt and never have done that there are useless and malevolent local authority officers. After all, I live in Essex where Mike Allpress was for years one of the HE advisors!

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  7. who gives a hoot what the rest of the UK thinks about Home education i dont! lets have anther war with those LA's LOL

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  8. Webb says- Very thought provoking, Mrs Anon. I don't doubt and never have done that there are useless and malevolent local authority officers. After all, I live in Essex where Mike Allpress was for years one of the HE advisors!

    Then that is why you have so many problem Webb untill these officers are dealt with home educators will not trust LA simple really if some one comes to fix your boiler and does a crap job and appears to be unaware of the harm he as done would you have him back? i dont think you would do you?

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  9. I came away from the conversation convinced that the doom and gloom in the news about Britain’s economic downturn and rising unemployment was a load of old bollocks designed put of “them forrins” from coming over.

    It seems that far from the cut throat competition for jobs seen in all other recessions, all over the world…. Britain is bucking the trend for its school leavers cos it is a land of milk and honey.

    Prejudice against a non standard education does not need to be anticipated\neutralized cos it is practically a non issue.

    The majority of employers consider each and every application on its own merits regardless of its evident lack of a "boxes ticked" quality.

    School leavers with no/few GCSEs are in hot demand thanks to their lack of airs and graces.

    Kids don't need to factor in "being competative" when making their educational choices, cos there aren't hoards of other applicants, some with basic qualifications AND a year or two of work in the field under their belt (thanks to being laid off), chasing an ever shrinking pool of jobs.

    Rare is the child who needs to keep their options open in case they can’t get\don’t like\lose the job they have focused their education on preparing for.

    Sounds dreamy.

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  10. "I didn't revel in it, at times I worried, but they gained an English GCSE four years after learning to read, can spell better than I can and are now at university (something I never achieved despite learning to read at 4). Why is this a problem?"

    The reason that it is a problem is simple. Out of a large group of illiterate teenagers, you may well find one or two who end up going to university. They will be greatly outnumbered though by those who have difficulty with reading and writing in later life. Some will remain functionally illiterate for the rest of their lives. This is not a good thing and can restrict employment prospects and the chances of progressing to higher education.

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  11. "Sounds dreamy"

    This is a very polite way of stating the case, Sarah. It sounds absolutely barking mad to me.

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  12. "This is a very polite way of stating the case, Sarah"

    I'm leaving room for the possibility that I am misinformed about the situation in the UK, my mindset is coloured by the very evident reality here, in combination with my line of work bringing me into contact with such large numbers of job seekers (English being seen as a vital skill to have when job hunting)

    I've just been on the phone trying to persuade a student to consider another student for a work experience placement that she mentioned.

    One year, no day release, no contribution to travel expenses, no nothing, full time plus late night/weekend overtime when contracts and deadlines demand. Good English mandatory even though you won't have to actually use it (that is fairly typical, it is used as a "weeder"). The role is office dogsbody, and it isn't in a highly competitive field like fashion (that lot expect kids to PAY to do work experience).

    She was really nice about it, but won't consider anybody without at least la maturità (like A levels) because she has in hand a heap of applications from graduates who have already done six months to a year of work experience placements.

    Kids here will go to extraordinary lengths to get qualifications, that ten years ago just weren't needed for the job they want to do, and tussle for unpaid work. They have to. Things have been biting for a while, but with the influx of refugees from companies laying people off it is getting so much worse.

    They say the really bad times are yet to come as sweeping cuts in the public sector will create another wave of workers looking for a job.

    I'm no economist, but I have vague memories of the 70s being difficult, I have up close and personal memories of the 80s as a school leaver and the boom of the 90s early 00s appears to have been of the "emperor’s new clothes" variety...so my concern is that this crisis will have repercussions well into a time frame when my lad will be an adult looking to work.

    And we don't have the dole or tax credits here so it really is a problem if you can't get a job.

    I'm thinking of expanding my plans for a language school to include a UK job placement\work experience placement agency because people are starting to once again look beyond domestic boundaries in big numbers, but they don't know where to start looking. With any luck I’ll build up a business big enough so that worse case scenario he can come and work for me while still looking for the line of work he actually wants.

    Hell or high water, he is not going through what I went through in the 80s.

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  13. 'Some will remain functionally illiterate for the rest of their lives.'

    Are you talking about home educated people here? If so, can we see the evidence that the late readers who go to university are greatly outnumbered by those who remain illiterate? Because this is not my personal experience. Are you sure you're not talking about people who didn't do well at school?

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  14. " If so, can we see the evidence that the late readers who go to university are greatly outnumbered by those who remain illiterate?"


    Wouldn't it just be easier if people provided links to the studies they discovered before they started to HE, when they researched and discovered the high ease/high success rates in delayed (tweens’, teens’, young adults’) acquisition of literacy ?

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  15. 'Wouldn't it just be easier if people provided links to the studies they discovered before they started to HE, when they researched and discovered the high ease/high success rates in delayed (tweens’, teens’, young adults’) acquisition of literacy ?'

    What studies? I can give you lots of anecdotal evidence from people I know personally, including my own child, but that won't mean anything to you. There are of course Alan Thomas, and Paula Rothermel, but from what I've seen here they don't do a very good job of convincing the sceptical that late reading isn't a problem. You are quite isolated in Italy, I imagine, and maybe don't have the opportunity to meet all these successful young people face-to-face, so I expect you have to rely on research much more than those of us who are lucky enough to be part of a thriving HE community, and of course the majority of research refers to school-educated children. I don't know if you visit England; if so, perhaps you could arrange to meet some UK autonomous home educators next time.

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  16. Ok, I have been following this discussion over the last few days and have done a bit of my own research into qualifications and I just don't get it. I just don't get how anyone can think that having no GCSEs is preferable to having them. Qualifications in any form can surely only be a good thing?

    I have always believed in gaining as many strings to my bow as possible. Whilst studying for my A levels I worked in a shoe shop and managed to get an NVQ2 in sales and customer service while I was at it. Later when I was doing bar work I sat a string of exams offered to me by the brewery and I've lost count of the number of times I have done food hygiene, health and safety, manual handling and first aid courses. All of these have been beneficial at some point in getting me a job, even years after gaining the qualifications. But I wouldn't have got the shop job or the bar job without GCSEs in Maths and English as a minimum (having more than that probably helped).

    My cousin has been looking for a Saturday job for sometime but has been getting nowhere. The local cafe told her last week to come back when she had her GCSE results. She got her results this week, went back to the cafe and starts work there this Saturday. They told her they never employ a waitress unless they have GCSEs maths and English (ie they can read, write, add and subtract). This is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life any more than I saw bar work or retail as a lifelong career, it's just a means to an end.

    I have always allowed for the fact that you never know what life is going to throw at you or when your career plans may go belly up so a few extra qualifications can only help. My husband has been made redundant and guess what.....I have just been offered a bar job on account of the brewery exams I took 14 years ago. Not a long term plan for me but it fit's in around home ed and my husband spending more time on our business and adds to the coffers for now.

    I would feel I was doing my son a huge disservice but not giving him the opportunity to sit his exams. Like I said, I just don't get it surely as many qualifications as possible can only help not hinder future prospects. It also shows you are willing to learn and isn't that what education is all about? Whatever your opinion on qualifications they are a part of the society we all live in so why make life harder for our children because of our own beliefs?

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  17. It's the same round here, Claire. I know teenagers who have been turned down for very routine, temporary jobs because the employer insisted on seeing a GCSE in at least C for maths and English. As you say, they want to be sure that the young person can read and write. Most of them would have been delighted to have a teenager who was bright and articulate; I'm talking Straurday jobs and temping here. Nobody expects these kids to stay for years. Still, some parents evidently don't want their children to have any sort of job. Here is the latest comment from the previous post;

    "I can't understand why people want to be so dependent on other people giving them full-time employment. Seems like a fickle, hostile environment to me. A bit like being in a cattle market. Why would you put yourself in that situation?"

    I honestly can't decide if this is meant seriously! If so, it is presumably from a very wealthy parent whose child will never need to work.

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  18. Interesting point from Alan Thomas. It is important to bear a couple of things in mind though. Firstly, these readers were not tested properly. 'Even more surprising was that starting to read late had, as far as could be ascertained' gives this away. This is casual observation, combined with anecdotal evidence from the parents. Secondly of course, this is a self selected group of families. It would be interesting to see what efforts were made by Thomas to look at socio-economic status and so on.

    ' It is fair to conclude that learning to read 'late' is a feature of home education, at least for those children who have never been to school'

    Emma mentioned above both Alan Thomas and Paula Rothermel. Thomas' statement that late reading is a feature of home education is the opposite of Rothermel's finding that home educated children are fantastically early readers. Both cannot be right and perhaps home educators should decide which they wish to believe.

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  19. "I just don't get how anyone can think that having no GCSEs is preferable to having them. Qualifications in any form can surely only be a good thing?"

    I don't think anyone has said that it it preferable for most children not to have GCSEs. I just don't think it's the end of the world that Simon implies, an especially not if you reach 16 without them. There are lots of alternatives available in college from 16. A few individuals might not need GCSEs and may even have been hindered by the amount of time it would have taken to study for them. One of my children is studying Fine Art and they have positively benefited from having lots of time to produce an excellent portfolio and develop the necessary skills. They are quite prepared to take GCSEs at a later date if they ever need them but their college has told them it's not necessary. They haven't needed them so far and they are currently studying a level 3 qualification and preparing their portfolio for university and their tutor does not foresee any problems.

    There is also the entrepreneur option. Louis' level of success may not be typical but I know several self employed young people making a good living without mainstream qualifications.

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  20. "Thomas' statement that late reading is a feature of home education is the opposite of Rothermel's finding that home educated children are fantastically early readers. Both cannot be right and perhaps home educators should decide which they wish to believe."

    Of course they can both be right. Some home educators could be very early and others late readers who catch up easily. I've seen both in my own family with one reading at 2 with not formal instruction and another learning at 13 and having an adult reading age (18+) by 16 according to a test carried out at college.

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  21. "But I wouldn't have got the shop job or the bar job without GCSEs in Maths and English as a minimum (having more than that probably helped)."

    Maybe that's the difference between you and others who don't believe that GCSEs are always essential? My first job followed on from a Saturday job and my qualifications were irrelevant. Experience and other on the job training has carried me the rest of the way and one of my children is employed without GCSEs. I'm not saying that qualifications are not useful, I just don't share the doom and gloom attitude to not having handfuls of GCSEs by the age of 16.

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  22. "One year, no day release, no contribution to travel expenses, no nothing, full time plus late night/weekend overtime when contracts and deadlines demand...The role is office dogsbody...She was really nice about it, but won't consider anybody without at least la maturità (like A levels)"

    You need A levels to work for free as an office dogsbody in Italy? Now that is madness.

    "It's the same round here, Claire. I know teenagers who have been turned down for very routine, temporary jobs because the employer insisted on seeing a GCSE in at least C for maths and English."

    Maybe it depends on where you live? We gave a temporary part time job to a 17 year old without an application form or interview. She just rang up, sounded OK and had actually showed enough initiative to ring around looking for work, so we gave her a try. She is still working for us 6 weeks later - I've no idea what her qualifications but she did well on her (paid) try out day are but we are happy to pay her £6 an hour for 5 hours a week.

    Two of my children have also gained temporary holiday jobs without GCSEs, one in a restaurant and another in an office.

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  23. "Are you talking about home educated people here? If so, can we see the evidence that the late readers who go to university are greatly outnumbered by those who remain illiterate? Because this is not my personal experience. Are you sure you're not talking about people who didn't do well at school? "

    The categories of 'home educated people' and 'people who didn't do well at school' are not mutually exclusive. Some people become 'home educated people' precisely because they were 'people who didn't do well at school'.

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  24. I culd have sworn I already posted this but it doesn't seem to be there..

    "I can't understand why people want to be so dependent on other people giving them full-time employment."

    ___

    Both my husband and I are self employed, and like it that way, but there is no superiority complex about it.

    There are pros and cons to both.

    I think there are more benefits to self employment than most people realize, but on the other hand I now have this evil boss who slavedrives me all the time and won’t let me pull a sickie. Even when I am actually ill.

    ___

    "Well there have been two of us on this one little blog, so maybe they are not as rare as you think? "

    You don't think that perhaps both of you are involved in HE and arguing against a pressing need for HEed student to gain standard qualifications might have just a little to do with your perspective as an employer?
    Which might give a slightly skewed result when compared to the bulk of employers ?


    PS Is Blogger comment software playing up cos either I am having a memroy malfuntion or about 6 of my posts were there right after posting...and then disappeared.

    Maybe I am posting them in the wrong place.

    Hope so cos the phantom memory thing is freaking me out.

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  25. "Maybe I am posting them in the wrong place.

    Hope so cos the phantom memory thing is freaking me out"

    They are in the 'Giving Children Choices' thread.

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  26. "They are in the 'Giving Children Choices' thread."

    Thanks love, I'm having page confusion then.

    If anybody sees a post of mine wibbling on about something that nobody on that thread said don't panic, it's me not you, I'm just having a temporary bout of.....excessive posting into the wee hours probably.

    Or old age.
    My brian is going.
    Brain even.

    I think I need to go and have a coffee and breath non-living room air for a bit.

    Simon, please post boring topic tomorrow. My house looks like a tornado kicked off in it.

    In fact if anybody sees me posting in the next 24 hours please scream “get off the computer” at me.

    Ta

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  27. I'm not saying that qualifications are not useful, I just don't share the doom and gloom attitude to not having handfuls of GCSEs by the age of 16.

    I agree its not the end of the world if you dont have GCSE by the age of 16. that is what teachers/webb/Badman?balls try to make you think! its in these people interst to make you belive this teachers need pupils Balls needed pupils it gives them work!

    you can also get jobs with out GCSE an employer is looking for some one who really wants the job and will not leave the minute he/she is offered anther job! at our office we had some one who called in wanting a job she had no GCSE but you could sense she really wanted this job so the boss said to all of the people she interviewed who will work here for 1 month with out pay only 2 said they would she was one of them and she did and worked really hard in that month and won the job!

    GCSE are just bits of paper and are geting easy to pass! dumb downed where if you get 60 per cent you have passed! employers know this so are looking for other ways to decide who to give a job to. its not a bit of paper that will get the floor cleaned but good old hard work!

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  28. "My brian is going."

    Many years ago, I was a civil servant in the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys. I had the responsibility for putting together tables of mortality, including cancer statistics. Only in the nick of time, after it had gone through all the proof reading did I notice that we were about to publish a chart showing the incidence of 'Cancer of the Brian' in the UK in 1973.

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  29. When every one has so many GCSE who will get the job?

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  30. "My house looks like a tornado kicked off in it."

    Nobody ever died from untidiness, Sarah. I bet your son doesn't care.

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  31. Sarah, you may not be going mad, one of my posts appears to have disappeared too! Simon sent the following reply but I can't find the original comment now:

    "' It is fair to conclude that learning to read 'late' is a feature of home education, at least for those children who have never been to school'

    Emma mentioned above both Alan Thomas and Paula Rothermel."

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  32. Webb says-Nobody ever died from untidiness, Sarah. I bet your son doesn't care.

    but an LA officer would not like to see an untidy house would he Webb? I wonder what sly comments he/she say when back in the office? an untidy house would be used as evidence you where not looking after your child and not educating it well. it would be wrote down on the records about this family that your house was untidy this would them flag up concerns!

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  33. "Still, some parents evidently don't want their children to have any sort of job. Here is the latest comment from the previous post;"

    **"I can't understand why people want to be so dependent on other people giving them full-time employment. Seems like a fickle, hostile environment to me. A bit like being in a cattle market. Why would you put yourself in that situation?"**

    "I honestly can't decide if this is meant seriously! If so, it is presumably from a very wealthy parent whose child will never need to work."

    Of course it was meant seriously, but at no point did I suggest that I didn't want them to have any sort of a job. And neither affluent nor destitute thank you - but enough spare resources and space to give my adult children time to develop their careers without them needing to jump through such stressful hoops - unless they want to. Works well for all concerned, and there's even some change after we've paid all the bills.

    As Sarah said: "There are more benefits to self employment than most people realize."

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  34. "an untidy house would be used as evidence you where not looking after your child and not educating it well"

    Ooopps...I've had most of the local vigile(sic), a good clump of the caribinare (maybe sic) from here the nearest big city, plus a couple of guardia di finazia (for sure sic) in and out of my house for over a year...and they have seen up close and personal my lack of housewifey gene.. maybe I should be pulling my socks up. Or at least hiding them under the sofa.

    I appear to have every single towel in the house surrepticiously shoved down the back of the armchairs instead of being hung up to dry after swimming. How do they do that in just 48 hours ?

    I have done shopping, managed MIL and now I will go face the laundry mountain.

    "Sarah, you may not be going mad"

    Or I may not be the only one going mad, I'll take that as a consolation prize ( =

    And Son of Thor better not mind a messy house since he appears to be responsible for what looks like bleeding confetti everywhere. Which might be the nice paper I paid loads of money for to do a flashy lapbook with.

    Oh noooooo, I so do not want to go and be flylady (sobs). I'd much rather argue on the internet.

    (procrastinates wildly while dragging self from keyboard...and this time I mean it !!!)

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  35. Im talking about in England Sarah! an LA officer would see an untidy house as cause for concern.This would be flaged up an education welfare officer would be told about this! This would all go on the records for this family also sly phone calls would be made telling the EWS officer what had been seen at the house.

    Webb knows how evidence is collected against a family and having an untidy house has been used in a court of law to suggest a family is not looking after its child! Webb also knows that LA officers can lie or make out the house is more untidy once this things are down on the records it is all much inpossible to change this view of the family!

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