When I wrote a couple of articles on home education last year for national newspapers, I was swiftly chucked off the HE-UK and EO Internet lists. The ostensible reasons for this were that I had used information from the lists to write the articles and that other parents would feel uneasy at my continued presence. I have said several times since that both arguments struck me as weak, which led some of those commenting on this blog to suggest that I must be autistic!
I am observing the same reluctance to tolerate dissent or heterodox opinions now operating on various other home education lists and blogs. I am not the only person whose views are being suppressed; Tania Berlow has also been barred from several places, the Home Ed Forums for example.
There is something deliciously ironic and satisfying about watching stout libertarians imposing censorship in this way. It is not called censorship of course. I have always been perfectly courteous on the Badman Review Action Group list, but that did not stop somebody making an extremely personal attack on me, speculating about my childhood, possible relationship with my parents and resultant hatred of women! When I attempted to respond to this, I was put on moderation. This was done on the grounds that my posts were not helpful, informative or interesting and from then on posts which I have made have been deleted. I have of course stopped posting there, which was the intention of those using moderation in this way. The grounds for censoring Tania Berlow from the Home Ed Forums was that she had been defaming people. Quite untrue of course, but it provided a neat excuse to get rid of her. Kelly Green in Canada, the great defender of civil rights and freedom of speech, simply deletes any posts of mine at once from her blog. This is because she disagrees with what I say and does not wish to have anything on Kelly Green and Gold which suggests less than 100% agreement with her own views.
Sometimes, the censorship is done in a very unpleasant way. On HE-UK, a small group of playground bullies have in the past driven off parents who have asked too many questions or failed to be firm enough in their resolve to refuse visits from their local authority. Several women have contacted me after such episodes, one or two of them very distressed at the treatment which they have received. On other lists, the strategy is a little subtler. Certain people are put on moderation without being told and their posts simply deleted. This means that when somebody posts a message which denounces them, it appears that they are unable to formulate a response! I am not the only person against whom this particular tactic has been successfully used.
Readers of this blog will know that there is no moderation at all. Anybody can say anything they please and their comments will appear at once. I had to use moderation briefly on two occasions, but that was more for disruption that one person was causing, not because I wished to stop his views appearing. I do not agree with Tania on a number of points, as can be seen from things which I have said here, but I consider it absolutely scandalous that her views are being censored by people who claim to be hard-line libertarians. If these people were to be honest, they would admit that they were taking such a step not because Tania is defaming anybody, but rather due to the fact that she is disagreeing with others. This is a terrible reason for introducing censorship. There have been rumblings of discontent on the BRAG list, which Tania has chosen as her vehicle to put across her motives and plans for the project with Graham Stuart and Alison Sauer. I have a suspicion that if she is not careful, she is going to find herself in difficulty there as well. It is rumoured that Action on Home Education have also thrown her off.
This sort of activity by supposedly liberal and right-on home educators is hard to justify. If these people actually approve of censorship and believe that those holding other opinions should be denied a voice, then they have a perfect right to believe that. What sticks in my craw is the way that people like Kelly Green in Canada and others in this country make such a song and dance about freedom and civil rights and then at the drop of a hat impose censorship upon anybody whose views do not coincide with their own.
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I found this post really interesting and I agree that censorship by supposed libertarians is more than a little hypocritical.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I can tell on the HE-Biz forums Kelly has been shut down too.
'From what I can tell on the HE-Biz forums Kelly has been shut down too.'
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm afraid that Kelly green is becoming an unperson in certain quarters.
tell us Tania what are these new guidlines are going to say? and how come your allowed to shape the guidlines but others are not? and is it true that home educators are going to be forced to register with there LA?
ReplyDeleteWell I'm not knocked down with a feather.
ReplyDeleteIt does speak of what looked to me like an expectation of "group think must be adhered to" in some quarters.
But it also speaks of the typical "board death" dynamic where a list owner loses their way, gathers acolytes over time and employs them as nodding doggies for dog piling purposes to keep their opinions as the only acceptable ones permitted.
The longer it becomes ingrained as a habit the less able they are to see how very transparent the dynamic is, the more transparent it is the quicker they kill off their base who become both fearful of being at the sharp end themselves and revolted at long claimed principles being dropped faster than a stripper's knickers.
Because this time the protagonists aren't universally reviled there is no muddying of the waters about the rights and wrongs of the actions taken.
The dynamic is not only visible, I think it is going to find itself under the microscope once the dust settles a bit. If the dynamic is applied to real life groups and interactions as well, I think you'll see similar outcomes there too.
Which is good. Lists (or real world groups) that get to that point are more a hindrance than a help to an already marginalized community and it is best that they self destruct and die off, or become a minor fringe player only.
Oh the irony, of the much vaunted "non coercive" when viewed against the backdrop of expulsions, dog piling and innuendo on boards, as well as the "rumour dumps" by email to other venues (like here).
'is it true that home educators are going to be forced to register with there LA?'
ReplyDeleteOnly those who limit their children's education to tortoise keeping and chess.
Old Webb-say Only those who limit their children's education to tortoise keeping and chess.
ReplyDeleteyou forgot the takwon -do and trampline plus maths! and the really good letters of complaint wrote by Peter(do these count as english lessons?). lets not forget Dr Tony Ludlow who also has wrote in support of Peter!
we all ready registed Webb but for some strange reason HCC wont write or vist us LOL! why dont you phone them up see if you can get them to take action LOL
I sought permission from the then moderator of BRAG to discuss guidelines issues there and the numbers have been rising on BRAG , albeit slowly but not as some are rumouring, declining.I was banned on the HE-Biz forum without moderation. This forum is run as a social enterprise. The administrator has
ReplyDeletewritten a front page 'news' opinion piece full of derogatory comments.I consider it libel. No names were mentioned but everybody knew who was being referred to. I called a few posters bullies and the evidence for this, the snide comments and nasty remarks is right there for all to read from the 10th - 30th October 2010.
A certain poster whose full name appears on another list and on Facebook, tried to claim it was because I used her full name rather than her 'forum' name which is remarkably similar to her full name and also the full name of the administrator AliP whose full name is literally
everywhere! The administrator of He-Biz helped set up Ahed. I was never banned from Ahed- I left of my
own volition 3 months into Badman after being on the receiving end of similar behaviour. My 'crime' was to start the statistics project
without involving all members of the group by putting it on the hard to use Ahed-Wiki page . I was happy at hte time to put Ahed's name to
the project and asked for help. It would have been impossible to make that project a process open to a few hundred members to niggle over
things such as exact wording of FOIs or font colour. There was a discussion about the fact that I belonged to other list. I questioned
whether the sign up process to Ahed had a disclaimer that stated that membership of any other list was verboten! I had never felt so
'oppressed' in any other list and so I left. At the time I put it down to a few individuals with no others willing to speak out .Since
then I have had numerous people contact me saying they too get 'jumped on' if they 'say the wrong thing' and that is why they do not
participate but instead lurk on which ever list they are on.
I notice AE-UK has also
removed me from their minions despite that it has no moderators .On this list I did not discuss any current politics . It is open to
autonomous home educators and my family fit that description. It is just a few people-the same few people. Posters whom these few people consider
'sheeples' or 'randoms' because they are not smart enough nor have a the same ideology as them...or is it that they think others are
stupid because they do not have the same ideology? How just how often does that ideology veer off into 'they are all out to get us so wise up you fool' rhetoric? The actions of the some of these 'most vocal and
experienced' often speak for themselves.
you forgot the trip Peter made to the house of commons in London to meet M.P's does this count as an education field trip?
ReplyDeleteI've never understood that one. Somebody is a "sheeple" BECAUSE they refuse to conform to the popular view in a specific location, despite it being bad for their ability to fade into the background and not get singled out for being told off.
ReplyDeleteDoes not compute.
Bit like the self congratulatory "freethinker" in the flip side context of people choosing "acceptance via uniformity" rather than forming their own opinions.
'I've never understood that one. Somebody is a "sheeple" BECAUSE they refuse to conform to the popular view in a specific location,'
ReplyDeleteIt's a way of putting people down, Sarah. 'Sheeple' means somebody who agrees with a lot of folk who are outside the group to which you yourself belong. 'Randoms' is a way of saying, 'Who are these people? They are not us!'
As owner of AEUK and one of the "20" that Tania keeps referring to all over the internet, as *nasty*, *vicious*,*full of malicious lies*, *bullying* etc, etc, I am going to say why I don't think it is a good idea to have Tania on AEUK.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I started AEUK on my own and I am the owner. There is also another moderator. There is moderation on very rare occurrences. At the moment we are on full moderation because of what has been going on elsewhere on the internet.
It is quite simple. This whole debacle was becoming more personal than I or my family like. To stop the above accusations being laid at my door, I blocked Tania on facebook and I left BRAG. I asked her to stop posting to me on HE-UK but she wouldn't, so now I don't post there. I had a thread taken down by Mike FW because Tania told him I had put her and her alias name in mortal danger by linking them. I then see her alias talking to a friend of mine on Facebook and befriending Graham Stuart. I haven't a clue what games are being played, but I do not see how I can own a list and keep it calm if Tania is on it under the present circumstances. Tania of course may turn up on the list as an alias and can ask questions about autonomous education. But if she isn't there as herself she can't keep on at me.
As for HEF. If Tania is happy to disclose people's real identities on HEF then she will do it elsewhere IMO. As owner of AEUK, I feel a responsibility to the privacy of the people on there, so would rather not have someone who took my own privacy so lightly. This is all I am going to say o the subject.
Being Libertarian doesn't mean you can't defend yourself.
Peter and cCrol said- <>
ReplyDeleteWell, they are not finished and when they are everyone will see them before it reaches any consultation stage. Anyone can join in and shape them, who told you that was not possible?
All comments which are not nasty ones are being take on board but understanding what the current law says is important , particularly to those who think it is possible to change to a compulsory registration system without changing primary legislation. Guidelines only interpret legislation they cannot change it.Guidelines are supposed to show good practice pathways and because the statutory guidance (CME) has been badly written, there is much misinterpretaton andhence confusion about how to interpret the current guidelines. The whole exercise is meant to ensure that the on the ground guidelines which LAs are meant to follow are as clear as they can be. Currently they are not. No-one who is 'on board' has any sympathies with compulsory registration nor voluntary registration.
"It's a way of putting people down"
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know, but it is just so clearly illogical that I don't understand how anybody can use it without feeling daft.
I suggest Raquel (and you do use your full name here as well) that you amend your AE-UK list to read that there are moderators. I have only answered your questions when you post them on a public list. Are you going to claim that my answering you here is also breeching your right to be ignored? Why should I not respond to attempts to belittle others by spreading gossip, innuendo and insinuation which cannot be not backed by any evidence .
ReplyDeleteYou may be right that you 'don't have clue what games are being played' but I see you playing a plenty. I am not playing any games and everything I post has my real name on it.
I have even asked you what exactly I did way back in June when you started insinuating on BRAG that I was dishonest.
I am glad you have stated that you are the owner of AE-Uk. It makes more sense now and it is no loss to me anyway.
Others are by referring to anyone they don't consider a member of their crowd as 'randoms' and anyone who disagrees about the 'bigger picture' to be sheeples and using derogatory terms , rumours , insinuation and gossip as the means of spreading a message.
For once I have to agree with Simon- the use of the label 'libertarian' along with your post and actions is a contradiction in terms.
If you don't like the idea of restructuring guidlines by all means state the real reasons why , not reasoning based on rumour. It would be helpful if an alternate action plan was discussed by those who disagree but I still see nothing else being proposed at all on the issue of changing legisaltion first.
Tania says-Well, they are not finished and when they are everyone will see them before it reaches any consultation stage. Anyone can join in and shape them, who told you that was not possible?
ReplyDeleteyes but is it being presented as a compulsory registration to be shaped? As we know that LA/s want this and many of the civil servents at the education department in London also want this as do a number of Liberal M.P's.
who has the final sayon the bew guidlines home educators or government and LA's?
When will we get to see these new guildlines
@ Peter and Carole
ReplyDelete1)No absolutely not. I already said this to you above and have to wonder why you think otherwise?
2)Consultation results will be the final say. If enough home educators like the cut of their jib then the home educators will outnumber the lAs and other posisble interested parties. If home educators do not like them then there will be a clear majority vote of 'no'.
3)Hopefully some time after winter holidays
oops sorry, it is carol without an 'e'.
ReplyDelete"I suggest ... that you amend your AE-UK list to read that there are moderators. "
ReplyDeletesorry, I don't know what you are talking about. Of course there will be an owner of a list, who has the ability to moderate.
"Are you going to claim that my answering you here is also breeching your right to be ignored?"
Are you going to foretell what I am going to say all the time or wait for me to speak for myself?
"Why should I not respond to attempts to belittle others by spreading gossip, innuendo and insinuation which cannot be not backed by any
evidence ."
I don't see why you shouldn't? But I have asked you several time to show me where i personally have done this. Saying that I am "full of malicious lies" and that I am full of innuendo on facebook and then not pointing me to any, meant that I felt attacked and I felt the need to distance myself from you. In doing so, you would have no reason to talk about me anymore, but yet again I come to this blog and find you talking about me. You keep referring to the people who disagreed with you on HEF with derogatory names. As I am one of the people who was in that discussion, I find it defamatory. I disagreed with you in that discussion, and I was angered by one of your posts. I also found being called a *bully* simply for not agreeing as a bullying tactic of it's own.
I have not called you a name EVER. I am still waiting for you to paste all the quotes from me where I have.
cont...
ok thanks for your quick reply Tania that sounds fine many thanks for this
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletesorry for deleted comments..blogger duplicated them. Now I'm off out so definitely won't be replying.
ReplyDeletei refer readers to post 22527 where the first insinuation was made and it has carried on since then. I have asked for an explanation as to why the attack .This post was way back in June and it has not stopped since then. What information did you have back then Raquel that caused you to accuse me of lying when I tied to explain the possible reasons for an Essex LA visitor to not be able to meet with a group of 'unknown' home educators ?
ReplyDelete<>
BTW sorry that was on BRAG.
ReplyDeleteSo if you want to continue this discussion on Simon's blog in public , carry on .
I have nothing to hide nor be ashamed of but I reckon form here i will choose not to respond to you and you have already said you want to do the same.
awww fiddledeedee says Tweedledum.
ReplyDeleteSimon you deleted the wording of the actual post from BRAG 22527 . Now enquiring minds will have to join BRAG if they want to read what was said..what a ploy! I will add that the moderators there seem very moderate and so far gentle reminders But no outright banning - even of you Simon !
'Simon you deleted the wording of the actual post from BRAG 22527 . Now enquiring minds will have to join BRAG if they want to read what was said..what a ploy! I will add that the moderators there seem very moderate and so far gentle reminders But no outright banning - even of you Simon ! '
ReplyDeleteI have not deleted anything at all. Have been out and just come back and read all this.
"Being Libertarian doesn't mean you can't defend yourself. "
ReplyDeleteNo, but censorship as the tool of choice in order to defend does look a little...contradictory.
Tania, there have been deletion issues with blogger's software for ages. Suddenly posts disappear like they were never there at all.(especially mine). You can tell when admin has deleted a post cos it will give a timestamp and say "deleted by admin" or similar. when there is no mark at all where a post used to be...it is the glitch.
ah well never mind. Possibly ill advised to repost a sentence from 5 months ago but the reasoning behind the sentiment in the sentence is is beyond me. I thought it may b e strange if Simon did delete as he is rahter well known for taking peoples words off of a list and putting on his blog. What are the 'rules' when it comes to forums that anyone can read without being a member?
ReplyDelete"What are the 'rules' when it comes to forums that anyone can read without being a member? "
ReplyDeleteDepends on the forum from where the cut and paste is coming from. I'd check with the list woner and see what they say.
Just keep a copy in word of all your messages here before you post them, cos once the glitch starts it can get a bit "post eatey" for a while.
or owner even
ReplyDeleteer not likely! people can go read it if they want to though wirthout being a member- even people who may or may not be in Nigeria ;>)
ReplyDeleteI havent got a clue wht this is all about but there is more action here than at the Haye Harrison fight so I will take my seat at ringside and enjoy the view.
ReplyDeleteThere will always be pressure to change the laws on HE. I think our best chance is to cut a deal with the current government as they are less likely to as interfering as a future Labour government.
How can the current government deal with the home ed community though when it is so apparent that no such community exists.
Simon you are a muddle headed bufoon with breath like an pigs bottom (just checking that there is no moderation)
Darren
oh dear it seems I linked Tania with someone I shouldn't and Simon emailed to say he had to take my post down at her request. So I will put it up again, with offending name taken out..because my other points need not be deleted surely?
ReplyDelete=========================================
"You may be right that you 'don't have clue what games are being played' but I see you playing a plenty."
Is this an insinuation or a lie?
"I am not playing any games and everything I post has my real name on it."
Well I am sorry then, because the owner of HE-UK told me that (*offending name tippexed out) was you alias name which is what you had told him. You must take that up with him.
"I have even asked you what exactly I did way back in June when you started insinuating on BRAG that I was dishonest."
did I? Is this because you would like to think I did or have you some proof?
"I am glad you have stated that you are the owner of AE-Uk. It makes more sense now and it is no loss to me anyway."
I thought you may have realised from when I asked to to stop x-posting material from there when we were doing the AEUK submission to the select committee. I didn't figure it would be much loss because you told us on AEUK that if people wanted to speak to you, they should go to Brag.
"Others are by referring to anyone they don't consider a member of their crowd as 'randoms' ......."
I don't speak for others.
"For once I have to agree with Simon- the use of the label 'libertarian' along with your post and actions is a contradiction in terms."
I'm sure you have agreed with Simon more than once ;)
I am not actually a libertarian but if you were painting me as one, I would have to point out that Libertarians do enjoy the right to defend themselves. I hold quite a few libertarian values but some I am not so sure about, especially surrounding the areas of land ownership etc.
"If you don't like the idea of restructuring guidlines by all means state the real reasons why , not reasoning based on rumour."
I did in several threads on HEF and on Brag when I was there. My reasoning would not be based on rumour at all. Is this more innuendo from yourself?
"It would be helpful if an alternate action plan was discussed by those who disagree but I still see nothing else being proposed at all on the issue of changing legisaltion first."
It was discussed on the HEF forum.
I know I said I would not say anymore, but I do find it frustrating to have to read all this misinformation. This is why I walked away from it in the first place. It seems to go on and on unless one person walks away. I am not going to walk away from a list that I started, sorry.
========================================
{yawn}
ReplyDeletewhy can't tania be linked with alex when she already is on facebook and on graham stuarts wall?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001829986851&v=wall
ReplyDeleteOK, the world is very strange at the moment or perhaps I am dreaming. Autonomous home educators are slugging it out with each other on Simon Webb's blog...
ReplyDeleteAllie said "the world is very strange at the moment" -
ReplyDeleteexactly - this gets weirder by the minute!
'Simon you are a muddle headed bufoon with breath like an pigs bottom '
ReplyDeleteEat your heart out Oscar Wilde! Wow, you must have been up all night thinking that one up Derren.
Libertarians believe in property rights.
ReplyDeleteBlogs, forums etc are private property.
The people who own these electronic platforms have the right to do with them as they see fit.
If someone came into my house and started irritating me or spouting offensive nonsense I would ask them to leave. If they didn't, I would make them.
Tania and anyone else has the option to set up their own blog or forum (and indeed BRAG more than adequately facilitates Tania's voice) in order to ensure their perspective is heard.
To stop *that* would be censorship.
This is what free speech is all about, and it is entirely consistent with libertarian principles.
In which case ,in the name of 'free speech' perhaps Lisa would not mind if Simon removed her post entirely?
ReplyDeleteWould that be entirely consistent with Libertarian principles?
Come to think of it , there are quite a few posts Simon may want to remove!
Of course I wouldn't mind, and yes it would be consistent with Libertarian principles, which I am getting a bit tired of explaining to people who seem to bandy the word about, often as an insult, without fully understanding what it is they are talking about.
ReplyDeleteIf Simon deleted my comments, I would be more than happy to set up and write from my own platform, or comment elsewhere, and have done this consistently since I started to interact with people online. Only an intellectual inadequate - or a troll - could arrive at any other conclusion.
The only other thing I think it is prudent to point out is the conclusions that others may draw from any blog or forum that chooses to ban or moderate comments, depending of course on what they are banning or moderating, and the reasons they give for their choice of action.
Irrational actions on the part of blog and forum owners will, quite naturally, result in the quality, objectivity and rationality of their content being held up for closer scrutiny.
Incidentally, I have never deleted or moderated a genuine comment on any of my blogs. That's my personal preference, however, and not a standard I necessarily expect from others when it comes to their personal property.