Friday 18 February 2011

Home educated children and the Open University

The question as to what people might be entitled to if they turn down public services and make their own arrangements with regard to education, is once again rearing its head. We are probably all familiar with the views of somebody who comments regularly here and believes that it is unjust that his son is not provided with money from the public purse to enable him to send his son to Eton. Most of those who come on this blog reject his point of view. A rather subtler, but essentially the same, argument is currently being advanced on some of the British home education support lists.

When we earn money, a certain proportion of it is taken from us in various taxes and used to provide services which are of public benefit. These include hospitals, police forces, fire brigades and of course schools. Nobody is obliged to make use of those services. If I wish to pay for private medical treatment, I am free to do so. If my house catches fire, I can put it out myself instead of ringing the fire brigade. If I don't like the local state school, I can send my child to an independent, fee-paying school or teach her myself. We are not entitled to a cash alternative if we do not use these services. I did not call the fire brigade last year, but I still have to pay a share of their costs in my Council Tax. The same goes for schools, the police and hospitals.

Some home educating parents have advanced the idea that because they don't use schools, they should be given a sum of money as an alternative. This would presumably mean that to be fair, childless people should also receive a similar rebate. It is an unworkable idea and those who advocate this are in the minority. A variation of this idea though is more popular. It is this; because home educators don't send their children to school, they should be allowed to have free education from other sources. The main sources to which they claim they should be entitled are Further Education Colleges and the Open University. There is really no such thing as free education of course and what these people are really asking is that other people pay for their choices. This is exactly the same argument as that used on here by the man who wants £30,000 of public money each year to send his son to Eton!

Free schools are provided for all children between the ages of five and sixteen. After that age, free colleges and sixth form centres are provided. Those who wish can send their children to these places. If local authorities and individual colleges wish, they can allow children under the age of sixteen to use the colleges. This is uncommon and not a right, but something which the college might allow in special circumstances. With the raising of tuition fees at universities, the Open University is now planning to charge more. Some home educating parents are protesting that this is unfair and that because they do not use the free schools, their children should instead be entitled to free university courses! This is a very strange proposition indeed. These courses are not free at all; the rest of us have to pay for them through our taxes. What these parents are really asking is that we subsidise their unconventional lifestyle via our taxes. They are in the position of those whom we mentioned above who have elected not to use the state health service. Having opted not to do so, imagine a family claiming that the state should provide them with some alternative form of health care for them so that they had a better service than those using the NHS, but also, at the same time, had it for nothing. Most of us would regard that as being a bit unfair on those who had stuck with the NHS.

The most grotesque piece of cant which I have seen in connection with this question was the assertion made by one woman that she feels that we are moving towards a position where all learning will be prescribed and that no other learning will be allowed except that sanctioned by the state! Any of us are free to learn anything we wish. We are also free to teach our children anything we wish. We can reject the free school being offered to us for our children, just as we can reject the health service and even the police. The local police are not very often in evidence in my street. If I wished, I could hire a private security guard to patrol my garden at night and deter burglars. I have a perfect right to do this. What I would not have a right to do, would be to expect others to pay for this private arrangement through their taxes. Regardless of how things may have worked in the past, expecting free university tuition for children whose parents have decided to reject the free education already on offer, is precisely the same as hoping that others will pay for private health care. It is not really on.

198 comments:

  1. Hmmm...I have spotted this debate myself, and have decided to refrane from commenting on it, because it would pretty muchecho what you have just said.
    It is also in line with something I spoke about a while ago, in connection with some people treating HE as a status thing, thinking that because they do things differently, they deserve to be treated differently.
    I believe the OU to be an excellent alternative for Home Educated kids, and have already laid the grounds for it with my son (who now has his own OU Identifier). However, it never once crossed my mind that I should be looking for any courses he may choose to take to be free, or subsidised by the tax payer.

    Education is a right, and a privilege, and also a choice..not yet another state benefit!

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  2. 'Some home educating parents have advanced the idea that because they don't use schools, they should be given a sum of money as an alternative.'

    This idea, and the one about education vouchers, has been considered and rejected by successive governments, for two main reasons. One is that if significant funds are siphoned off from the state system it won't be able to function. The other is that if money is involved, significant numbers of people might opt for home education simply to get the extra cash and that their children's education could suffer.

    That's not quite the same as what happens with the per capita allowance (or whatever it's called now) that central government pays to local government to pay to schools. Central government does not work out how many people used a local fire service last year and allocate money to the fire service accordingly (well, not quite) because the fire service needs to be maintained in case people need it.

    There is no reason why the per capita allowance for home educated children should not be given to LAs to allow them to purchase resources for EHE children to access, or to fund specific courses or provide a laptop or whatever. Obviously, if LAs were dishing out public funds they would want a say in how they were used.

    In other words, allocating to individuals funding needed to maintain the education system, or cash, would cause problems; allocating the money paid to schools for individual children to EHE resources wouldn't. As far as I can see.

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  3. 'However, it never once crossed my mind that I should be looking for any courses he may choose to take to be free, or subsidised by the tax payer.'

    Yes, my own daughter did an OU course when she was eight, surely a record! I certainly did not expect to get it for nothing, nor did we. There is an old German proverb; take what you want and pay for it.

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  4. 'That's not quite the same as what happens with the per capita allowance (or whatever it's called now)'

    It's called the AWPU now; Age Weighted Pupil Allowance. Most of the cost of schools goes on salaries and buildings. I can't think that it would be fair for local authorities to receive the same sum for home educated pupils. There are no associated salery and building maintainance costs associated with a child who is not at school.

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  5. I think the frustration with the change is twofold; firstly there is a sense of having the finishing line moved just when you are approaching it, and secondly lack of real info.
    Many home educators had been attracted by the idea of OU because it was free to under 16's (and free older too if you had no income) and it was the young persons income which counted - not the parents. It also got round the whole exam hassle (ie playing hunt the centre and the cost issue) and also of course continued the whole idea of learning at home.


    Nevertheless it was an anachronism- even back in the days of free uni tuition (when I was a student) it was the parents income which was assessed for the "living" grant - not the students. Now we have moved nto a system of no free tuition, and loans not grants. If OU remains as it was there was bound to be a flood of full time students taking that option, which isn't quite what it was intended for.... and who was actually going to meet all the huge costs if the students weren't working? Change seemed inevitable!

    The lack of comeplete info as to how this will affect under 18's though is currently frustrating people, and I expect that HE under 16's - although they may seem like a huge group to us, are actually a small minority of their students. I know that for a while some schools offered OU course to bright students, but I expect that this has already diminshed what with the increase in choice of exam courses and the pressure of league tables - it would be interesting to know. Most working part time adult students will be glad of loans to fund their courses rather than paying upfront, so they will be pleased about the changes.


    As for us personally - well dd is considering taking some OU courses; she will however be entitled to a disabled students grant, which will help. In addition all students of any uni don't have to pay back their loans until they are earning an amount, which, to be honest, she may never manage to achieve anyway. One of my older boys is in that position - he has a complex diablity and although he works "full time" - it is in a school, so he isn't really paid for school holidays or for longer than the short school day. He therefore doesn't pay back any of his loan and unless there is a massive rise in salaries, may never do so. I am afraid I don't feel the slightest bit guilty about this... he would struggle to work a longer day (he is really exhausted by 4pm anyway) and his qualification (an HND) has enabled him to prove that he can do a valuable job- and by doing so he does of course contibute to the economy through taxation.

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  6. 'It's called the AWPU now; Age Weighted Pupil Allowance. Most of the cost of schools goes on salaries and buildings. I can't think that it would be fair for local authorities to receive the same sum for home educated pupils. There are no associated salery and building maintainance costs associated with a child who is not at school. '

    Thank you. The point I was making is that if a pupil is de-registered from a school, the school doesn't get the AWPU for that child for the following school year anyway. I don't know what happens to the money. Does it go into the LA's education budget? The DfE budget? Is it categorised as a reduction in costs?

    In other words, home educated children don't save the system money in terms of the number of school buildings or numbers of teachers required (the numbers of EHE children are probably still too low to make much difference) but they do save money in terms of the AWPU - because that is an allowance for each child on a school register, and budgeted for depending on the numbers on the school register each January. Unless I have misunderstood how the AWPU works.

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  7. 'the school doesn't get the AWPU for that child for the following school year anyway. I don't know what happens to the money. Does it go into the LA's education budget? The DfE budget? Is it categorised as a reduction in costs?'

    Very often, this is the subject of tricksy accounting by the school. If you can get the kid deregistered at the right moment, you can still get the money for him for the coming year without actually having the child on the premises! Some schools have actually tried to delay parents from deregistering a child until the right moment in the finacial year.

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  8. I'm aware of the tricksy accounting. Which does rather prove my point. Do you know what happens to the AWPU *not* allocated to the school the year after a child is de-registered?

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  9. ' Do you know what happens to the AWPU *not* allocated to the school the year after a child is de-registered?'

    Yes, the school has to make an annual return, declaring the number on roll. The following year, if that child has left, then the school gets nothing for her.

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  10. There was talk of the Govt agreeing to give some of the APWU towards exam fees (end of last Govt) but although this Govt has agreed that this can happen for a few for colleges/SEN children, they backed out of any commitment to fund exams. The statement said something like "we are committed to funding schools and think it right we should concentrate on that"....

    I can sort of see both points of view- in some ways it would seem simple to pass the funding on...but then of course parents of independent school pupils would want it to. That would actually allow far more people to fund private schools... £4k a year may not do much to subsidide Mr Wiiliams hopes for Eton, but it would pay over 50% of the fees for my dds private school.... and does any Govt want to be subsidising the "rich" (we aren't rich, BTW - she has a scholoarship).

    Then there is the admin - does the LA get the funding and then decide what an HE parent can spend it on? Does the parent get it (and then you may have a rush of folk who deregister for the cash) Must it be spent on maths tuition - or do chess lessons count? It would inevitably lead ot more monitoring - and most HErs don't want that!

    I personally am aware of the pitfalls, but do wish there was more flexibility in the system. Exam funding would be relatively easy and worthwhile I think.

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  11. 'Yes, the school has to make an annual return, declaring the number on roll. The following year, if that child has left, then the school gets nothing for her. '

    That's the point I was making. Since the school doesn't get the money, I see no reason why the money shouldn't follow the child. I don't think it would be sensible to dish it out in the form of cash, but it could be used by LAs to fund grants for EHE children to access courses or equipment or to provide a central resources, or an enhanced library service or whatever.

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  12. @ Julie

    I think you're right about the admin. Our LA is aware of 300 children who are home educated in our county, which would work out at around £10,000 if they kept the AWPU. That would cover the overheads for what, someone working a couple of days a week? Not much money left for grants for individuals. However, spent centrally, it could mean quite a lot of books and equipment available through the library service.

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  13. if my house catches fire, I can put it out myself instead of ringing the fire brigade.

    You would be breaking the law if you did not phone the fire service! A fire could spread and in danger other people lives or property. also under the health and safety act yuo have a duty to keep people safe if you refused to phone for help you could be responsible for harming people if the fire spread! also you may not deal with the fire on your own in the correct way your actions could make the fire get worse! The police would want to know why you had not phoned the fire service for help. So would your insurance company and other peoples insurance company would want to know why you did not phone the fire and polcie service!

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  14. On the subject of funding i dont see why those that want funding can not have it after all you claim you want to help children this money would help to provide a better education for them! if some home educators did not want the money you just say no thanks! of course it must be used for the education of the child!

    We will go on asking for funding others may not agree but we are quite entitled to ask for a change in funding for home educators! funny how you where quite happy for tax payers money to be wasted on LA visiting and interviewing all home educators!

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  15. 'We will go on asking for funding others may not agree but we are quite entitled to ask for a change in funding for home educators!'

    The rumour going the rounds in Hampshire County Council is that your son was in fact offered a scholarship at a private school, but that you declined it because you thought that it would interfere with his chessplaying. Is this true?

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  16. Peter and Carol said...We will go on asking for funding others may not agree but we are quite entitled to ask for a change in funding for home educators! funny how you where quite happy for tax payers money to be wasted on LA visiting and interviewing all home educators!

    "funny how you where quite happy for tax payers money to be wasted on LA visiting and interviewing all home educators!"

    I understand that for some out there these visits are unwanted, and therefore deemed a waste of taxpayers money..but that is also a huge sweeping generalisation. Not everyone agrees that LA visits are a waste of money.

    "On the subject of funding i dont see why those that want funding can not have it"

    Because it simply wouldnt be economically feasible. You couldnt offer something for free to one section of society and then expect all others to pay. Or worse still, get those who actually do pay, to also pay (in part) for your education too.

    Like I said before, education is a choice. As I am sure you well know, the law states that you are entitled to choose which package you want - state provided education, or otherwise. Therefore you have to accept that, at present, when choosing which education package you prefer, there will be advantages and disadvantages to both.
    It's the responsible person that ensures they are fully aware of all factors when making their choice.

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  17. Old Webb says-The rumour going the rounds in Hampshire County Council is that your son was in fact offered a scholarship at a private school, but that you declined it because you thought that it would interfere with his chessplaying. Is this true?

    No we where never offered a formal scholarship what happened was Peter left school on a Monday age 7 and on the friday a man claiming to be the head of a school with no direct bus or train link said he read about Peter chess skills and may be able to help! when i said to him i dont know who you are and anyway we would need to think about it he seemed to lose interest! he did stress it would still cost a lot to go to his school! with the various trips and other things their expected parents children to take part in! including christmas shoping in London in Harrods!

    any way how do you know what rumours are going around Hampshire county council? be careful what you listen to from them their dont always tell the truth!
    who have you spoken to if their been speaking about us to you i will put in a complant!

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  18. Loz said;

    'Like I said before, education is a choice. As I am sure you well know, the law states that you are entitled to choose which package you want - state provided education, or otherwise. Therefore you have to accept that, at present, when choosing which education package you prefer, there will be advantages and disadvantages to both.'

    What the law says is something rather different. It gives parents a duty to cause their child to have a suitable education. How the parents cause their child to have such an education is entirely up to them, but their 'choice' will be constrained by the child's educational needs. They could teach the child themselves, hire a tutor, send the child to private school, a state school or a Buddhist monastery if that was appropriate. As long as the child was receiving an education suitable to their age, ability, aptitude and any special educational needs they might have, the parent would be complying with the law.

    As for the educational 'packages' on offer, these have varied considerably during the last 150 years, and I don't see the changes stopping anytime soon. It is perfectly in order, in a democracy, for people to campaign for changes to the law. There are good reasons why individual funding hasn't been adopted by government, but parents are still entitled to ask for it, surely.

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  19. Actually Peter, I don't know anything about HCC rumours - but didn't this come up on the last TV programme?

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  20. "There are good reasons why individual funding hasn't been adopted by government, but parents are still entitled to ask for it, surely. "

    Yes, I agree too - but I also think it is a bit rich to say that the child has to have a 2nd class education because the LA won't fund a top private school!

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  21. Loz says-Not everyone agrees that LA visits are a waste of money.

    But many do think these visits are a waste of tax payers money! you and Webb want tax payers money wasted on visits but dont want to spend money on the child education!

    you then say-Because it simply wouldnt be economically feasible. You couldnt offer something for free to one section of society and then expect all others to pay. Or worse still, get those who actually do pay, to also pay (in part) for your education too.

    it is economically feasible it would benfit the child education this is a good thing? your just using tax payers money to help fund a child education what is so wrong with that?

    you dont have a real choice in England over education its state school(which may not be able to help your child in its talent) or home education what kind of choice is that?

    your problem is you dont want to inprove anything you want every thing to stay the same. why cant we inprove home education for our children via funding? I would say it is you who is not being very responsible as you do not want to do anything that could inprove a child's education! dont be like Webb try to think outside of the box!

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  22. 'you dont have a real choice in England over education its state school'

    So does that mean that you were offered a place for your sone at an independent school?

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  23. Teacher Julie says-Actually Peter, I don't know anything about HCC rumours - but didn't this come up on the last TV programme?

    It did and i was quite amazed as it was very old news! and it was not a formal offer see my above post for the facts!

    you then say-es, I agree too - but I also think it is a bit rich to say that the child has to have a 2nd class education because the LA won't fund a top private school!

    your missing the picture again Julie funding would give child better education to pay for extra tutors or exams dont you want children to get a better education you yourself could just refuse the funding! i have your to if you like and Webbs!

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  24. Old webb says-So does that mean that you were offered a place for your sone at an independent school?

    NO fromal offer of a place at an independent school was offered!

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  25. Peter and Carol said...you dont have a real choice in England over education its state school(which may not be able to help your child in its talent) or home education what kind of choice is that?

    I think you will find that I only offered those two choices in my statement. I wasnt trying to provide evidence of any others, therefore my point was exactly the same as yours.

    Moving on...

    Peter and Carol said...your problem is you dont want to inprove anything you want every thing to stay the same. why cant we inprove home education for our children via funding? I would say it is you who is not being very responsible as you do not want to do anything that could inprove a child's education! dont be like Webb try to think outside of the box!

    As a responsible parent, I made sure I was fully aware of both the advantages and disadvantages of BOTH routes of education for my child. I made the decision to HE, because I felt that would provide a better level of education for my child..not because I felt it would give me the opportunity to over shadow my childs education with endless protesting and rallying for change.
    Change happens slowly. By those who are adept at making it appear it is not.

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  26. "The main sources to which they claim they should be entitled are Further Education Colleges and the Open University."

    The Education Act 1996 states:
    Pupils to be educated in accordance with parents’ wishes.
    In exercising or performing all their respective powers and duties under the Education Acts, the Secretary of State and local education authorities shall have regard to the general principle that pupils are to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents, so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure.


    If the requested educational alternatives are of a similar cost to that provided in schools, doesn't this section mean that it should be provided? I can see that private schools would not be suitable because of the extra cost, but if FE Colleges and the OU are considered to provide efficient enough instruction to qualify for state funding, and it doesn't involve unreasonable public expenditure, I can't see how they can refuse and abide by this law. I would have thought that costs would be comparable to school and they are part of the state system.

    Personally I'm not interested in state handouts for my children's education (though I've had them myself for OU courses) - they would want too much control (strange how little control they want over the education they are providing for me though, I've had no visits to check that I'm not wasting their grant money). But I think this is an interesting point of law and not one I've seen brought up before. Can anyone see why this may not apply?

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  27. I think at the very least that anybody opting out of the state education system should be sure that they are able to provide at least as good an education themselves as that being offered by maintained schools. It is hopeless to pin one's thoughts on possible tutors, resources or funding. It might be a good thing if this happened; but it will probably not.

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  28. "However, it never once crossed my mind that I should be looking for any courses he may choose to take to be free, or subsidised by the tax payer."

    Just a small point. The situation currently is that anyone on a low income gains a grant that covers the full cost of the course. This includes working adults, so currently, HE parents are not expecting special treatment when they register and obtain a grant. I haven't seen the current discussion so I can't comment on that.

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  29. "Yes, I agree too - but I also think it is a bit rich to say that the child has to have a 2nd class education because the LA won't fund a top private school!"

    It's sort of true. You only have to look at outcomes (nearly half of Oxbridge students are from private schools which serve a minority of children, something like 7%), so yes, most state educated children get a 2nd class education compared to privately educated children and possible a 3rd class education when compared to Eton; I've no idea how Eton compares to other private schools.

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  30. Loz says-As a responsible parent, I made sure I was fully aware of both the advantages and disadvantages of BOTH routes of education for my child. I made the decision to HE, because I felt that would provide a better level of education for my child..not because I felt it would give me the opportunity to over shadow my childs education with endless protesting and rallying for change.
    Change happens slowly. By those who are adept at making it appear it is not.

    so your not allowed to protest unless you do it all very quiet just how government and councils like it! no fuss! run along now!

    its been quite an education i can tell you never know much about councils untill we had this problem! never knew like most people dont that policy is set by your council for education. when we started to look into all of this i was amazed how many people worked in the education department for a council and how poor some of the staff where at thier job!

    Peter was invited to the house of commons and did get to bring up some of this with a few M.P's who did listen! Peter very intersted in the house of commoms and how councils work he is a very good friend of Councilor Dr Tony Ludlow! held his own with Dr Ludow age 9 and the pair of them would ofen debate all of this! Peter learnt a lot over all of this

    Your scared of change dont be think outside of the box and think what good extra funding for those that want it would do for the child! Dont be like Webb unable to open his mind to the real change we need for our children.

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  31. Old Webb says-I think at the very least that anybody opting out of the state education system should be sure that they are able to provide at least as good an education themselves as that being offered by maintained schools. It is hopeless to pin one's thoughts on possible tutors, resources or funding. It might be a good thing if this happened; but it will probably not.

    Most home educators do provide at least if not better education than the local state school! so your agreeing now that funding would be a good idea? if you are why dont you get writing and telling every one you know? start with your council write to them and tell them you now want some funding for home educators! every letter counts Webb!

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  32. Peter and Carol said...Your scared of change dont be think outside of the box and think what good extra funding for those that want it would do for the child! Dont be like Webb unable to open his mind to the real change we need for our children


    I have never said that extra funding wouldn't be a good thing, but surely you can agree that it is governments and councils (if we must compartmentalise everything) which are the real ones who do not ilke change. Especially when it is thrust at them.

    And whilst I commend your child for having such an influential time at the HoC, he is not the only one who can..and has..held their own with politicians. I am sure we all know someone who has some influence in such departments, even if we are unaware of it.

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  33. I agree fully with your post, though I think there may be some compromise to be made, particularly in terms of GCSEs and A Levels.

    Where I live, there is currently a sixth form that has a programme that allowed young adults to take GCSEs if they were 'unable' to do at the typical age, with those aged 16-18 when starting able to take it for free. This was originally introduced as we have a large children's hospital here and so there was a need to help those who had missed a large part of secondary education. Now it has been expanded to include others, including home educated young adults. I think programmes like this would help home education community as it would make getting GCSEs easier (as you have said before, many areas have very few who will take private candidates due to behaviour of past home educators and the increasing prices scare off some) and allow young adults to get needed qualifications if their parents can't or won't do so in the first place.

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  34. Loz says-I have never said that extra funding wouldn't be a good thing, but surely you can agree that it is governments and councils (if we must compartmentalise everything) which are the real ones who do not ilke change. Especially when it is thrust at them.

    And whilst I commend your child for having such an influential time at the HoC, he is not the only one who can..and has..held their own with politicians.


    You have not as far as i know made any efforts to get councils or government to think about funding home educators if your quiet on an issues councils/government think you dont care about the issues such as funding for home educators! Councils mointor how many lettters phone calls their get over an issue! your letter voice could be the one thats makes the council move a bit quicker! Have been told many times by councilors not many have wrote about this matter! councilor if only we could get more letters to the council on this matter! it would really help.
    Im afraid sometimes you have to thrust change at our beloved leaders poor things! their get over it! your way of keeping quiet and making no fuss does not work councils love a nice quiet subject!

    yes their have been other children to who have met M.P/s and complained about crazy of Badman and a very good job thier did to far better than us these children parents where at it! but each person does what he can for us it was the direct way had to be im afraid after being threated to many times by HCC LA and the old children's department. We must have shook them up cos crazy of Badman went on at some committe hearing about chess! i wonder who he was talking about?

    so get writing and telling your county councilor that you would like funding for those home educators that want it you can tell him you dont want the money but others do! and just think how helpful that funding would be to those home educated children!

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  35. Hmmm...I tend to tell those who are in leaderships positions (LA's M.P.s etc) that home educators do NOT want any funding thank you very much.

    The moment HE gets funding is the moment we lose the battle to stay independent. That used to be the message of ALL home educators 15-20 years ago. It should have stayed that way.

    All this clamour for money makes government/LA's want to stick their noses into our business.

    My children are grown up and have moved on from HE successfully. All without a penny of 'funding'. And we are not rich by any stretch of the imagination. No second car or nice holidays for us during those years.

    Frugality and independence are good qualities to have and to teach.

    We shouldn't be offering to sell our independence so cheaply and so readily.

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  36. Anon says-All this clamour for money makes government/LA's want to stick their noses into our business.

    That never stoped the last government from trying to poke thier noses into home educators business and we get no funding! its also remoured that M Gove M.P and the education department still want to poke thier noses in!

    you also say-We shouldn't be offering to sell our independence so cheaply and so readily.

    only those that want the funding should have it no one would force you to take the funding it is clear you would not want it fine but we do! i respect your view that you do not want it! but i know i could put that funding to very good use for Peter!

    you also say-No second car or nice holidays for us during those years.

    no second car for us or fancy hoilday for us to so snap! we know all about frugality and independence very little money in our bank im afraid! have you seen the price of gas dread the next bill!

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  37. 'The moment HE gets funding is the moment we lose the battle to stay independent.'

    Isn't that the truth! I would rather have struggled financially but been free to do what we wished, rather than have to jump through hoops for cash from the council or government.

    ReplyDelete
  38. But attendance at college at least is not HE, it's just a more acceptable alternative to school for some. OU is only one step away being more or less a virtual school because assignments have to be completed throughout a course. Funding for these, paid directly to the college/OU, is not comparable to funding home educators directly and would not require hoops to be jumped through because results are automatically monitored.

    Can you see a problem with LAs abiding by the law as quoted above and allowing (probably older) HE children to enrol at college as long as it avoids unreasonable public expenditure? Presumably this would be possible if they already have school children enrolled so any child safety concerns have already been addressed.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Loz said:

    'I have never said that extra funding wouldn't be a good thing, but surely you can agree that it is governments and councils (if we must compartmentalise everything) which are the real ones who do not ilke change. Especially when it is thrust at them.'

    Sorry, Loz, I seem to be taking issue with you on everything today, but how can you say that governments don't like change? It's been nothing but change for the past thirty years.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anon says-All this clamour for money makes government/LA's want to stick their noses into our business.

    Peter said:That never stoped the last government from trying to poke thier noses into home educators business

    That probably contributed to their desire to meddle.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anon says-That probably contributed to their desire to meddle.

    No funding was been given for home educators or clamour for it when the last Labour government tried to poke its nose into home educators business! and it is said that Gove and his department want to still poke thier nose in!

    Old worn our Webb says-Isn't that the truth! I would rather have struggled financially but been free to do what we wished, rather than have to jump through hoops for cash from the council or government.

    you would not have had to jump though hoops you Webb would have said NO thanks i dont want the funding! others may have wanted the funding and possible hoops who knows? it should be a choice thought you liked choices?

    ReplyDelete
  42. Some further up said I haven't seen the current discussion so I can't comment on that."

    The issue appears to be that instead of free courses for the low paid, it will be part of the ordinary student loan scheme; ie borrow now to pay (increased ) tuition changes and pay back later, when working.. The problem is no one (including the OU) seems to know how this will work for under 18's.

    That change is what is bothering some people

    ReplyDelete
  43. suzg says-It's been nothing but change for the past thirty years.

    Not real change really the trick is by any government is to make out your going to get real change? what is the difference between the 3 main party's any one know? the 3 main party's do as their told in most cases by the banks and big city investors and IMF and other big investors aboard!

    ReplyDelete
  44. Suzyg said...It's been nothing but change for the past thirty years

    Yes..change that ultimately better suits them, rather than the lowly tax payer.
    Far more worth causes have received funding through the national lottery than they have through government - which is quite sad really.

    And as for constantly taking issue with me today, dont worry about it.
    I am happy to accept that every now and then my viewpoint will either clash with someone elses, or be completely wrong. I have absolutely no gripe with those who, through the medium of mature debate, bring attention to that. :)

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anon says-That probably contributed to their desire to meddle.

    Peter said: No funding was been given for home educators or clamour for it when the last Labour government tried to poke its nose into home educators business!

    Yes, this desire for funding among some home educators has been growing over a number of years now. When did you start asking for it?

    At least in part because of people like yourself Peter, insisting the LA or government pays for HE, of course they are going to start to want to poke their noses in. It's called accountability. Public money can't be spent without the people who spend that money being accountable for it.

    I'm sorry you can't see what damage you are doing to HE.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I guess it was inevitable that the OU couldn't sail through this turbulent time in higher education without big changes. The changes in higher education are very unsettling. I don't think anyone can accurately predict what sort of system we'll be looking at in five years - or what will be available for our children.

    ReplyDelete
  47. I dont know what camp you would put me in but my veiw is this. I chose to home educate therefore it is my choice to not access free services already available.
    Giving out money randomly to home educators is not something I think Government has any reason to do and especially not for university level courses
    However I do believe there could be benefits to Governments allowing local authorities to provide money for HEer for GCSE or some other 14-19 courses in exchange for something, for example; regsitration and visits, maybe.
    I certainly dont think we should get something for nothing.
    So as I said, not sure how you would classify me with this

    ReplyDelete
  48. C said...Giving out money randomly to home educators is not something I think Government has any reason to do and especially not for university level courses
    However I do believe there could be benefits to Governments allowing local authorities to provide money for HEer for GCSE or some other 14-19 courses in exchange for something, for example; regsitration and visits, maybe.

    I would agree with this in part. It would be ultimately beneficial to the Government in the long term to ensure that LA's are assisting HE'd children in achieving the same qualifications as state educated children with as much ease as state educated children, so they can then go on to become efficient and effective tax payers themselves.
    However, I'm not so sure that I agree that such resources should be available just on the proviso that they will secure visits and see that parents are adhering to registration. Sounds a bit like dangling a carrot to me.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anon says-Yes, this desire for funding among some home educators has been growing over a number of years now. When did you start asking for it?

    At least in part because of people like yourself Peter, insisting the LA or government pays for HE, of course they are going to start to want to poke their noses in. It's called accountability. Public money can't be spent without the people who spend that money being accountable for it.

    I'm sorry you can't see what damage you are doing to HE.

    7 years ago we asked for funding! nothing so far!

    so its my fault that the last labour Government wanted to poke its nose into home education because i dared to ask for some funding for those that wanted it and was told no chance! I wish i was that powerfull to be able to frighten government into taking such quick action maybe we are more powerfull than we knew! you think i am?
    maybe the last Labour government wanted to poke its nose in cos it thought most home educators are like you very weak and always doing as your told like the good subject you are! are yuo the type like Webb who wait in anther room while your child is inteviewd on its own by your LA?

    I have done no damge to home educators and only campaign for our family and our son Peter for him to have some sort of funding nothing wrong in that if you dont want funding dont have it! its a choice im asking for thought people on here liked choice?

    ReplyDelete
  50. Loz says-so they can then go on to become efficient and effective tax payers themselves.

    is that your measure of success how much tax you pay to government?

    ReplyDelete
  51. Peter said: maybe the last Labour government wanted to poke its nose in cos it thought most home educators are like you very weak and always doing as your told like the good subject you are!

    What are you talking about now? I fought very hard so that Home Educators (even the illiterate ones) were enabled to continue without interference.

    If you want the LA to leave you alone, stop pestering it for money.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Tell us Peter, if some fairy godmother paid for Peter to go to Eton College, would you send him? No, of course not, because then he wouldn't be able to spend so much time playing chess. He'd be studying for exams.

    ReplyDelete
  53. "However, I'm not so sure that I agree that such resources should be available just on the proviso that they will secure visits and see that parents are adhering to registration. Sounds a bit like dangling a carrot to me."

    If the money is for courses and exam entrance fees, why would visits be necessary? The HE children on courses would be on a par with school children as they would be seen to be receiving an education, and exam results would effectively monitor spending on exam entry. If they found that a much higher proportion of HE children failed exams, it might be appropriate to require the child to sit a test when applying for funding to show that they are at the appropriate level. The test would be good practice for the exam too. I don't see why home visits would be necessary and registration would automatically happen anyway. You've invariably got to be on some kind of list to receive government funds.

    ReplyDelete
  54. peter and carol said...is that your measure of success how much tax you pay to government?

    LOL...
    How much tax one ends up paying during their working life is of absolutely no concern to me. However, it becomes a concern to me if my children fail and become jobless because they are unable to compete for jobs, because they dont have 'qualifications' which reflect their ability.
    I know that some HE's do not strive for paper qualifications, but I'm sorry, I personally still see their relevance when it come to employability.

    ReplyDelete
  55. I actually (for the first time) agree with Peter and Carol today. I think it could be a good thing for some people to have the choice to receive funding from the LA if they want to. What is wrong with choice?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anon said:
    I actually (for the first time) agree with Peter and Carol today. I think it could be a good thing for some people to have the choice to receive funding from the LA if they want to. What is wrong with choice?

    Because it won't remain a choice.
    Because the option would come with intolerable strings. (Someone here has already mentioned pre-testing).
    Because a whole structure will be built to administer it. It will become the round hole all of us square pegs will end up being hammered through.

    However, it won't happen. All the 'clamour for funding' will do is annoy government and LA's and make them think we need more supervision/monitoring etc.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Peter said: maybe the last Labour government wanted to poke its nose in cos it thought most home educators are like you very weak and always doing as your told like the good subject you are!

    What are you talking about now? I fought very hard so that Home Educators (even the illiterate ones) were enabled to continue without interference.

    If you want the LA to leave you alone, stop pestering it for money.

    Im talking about the fact that the last Labour government thought that many home educators where weak and would make an easy target!

    Who are you and how did you fight for home educators? we no idea who you are!

    We not heard from HCC LA for over 5 years we do write to them every month asking for funding but no reply!

    ReplyDelete
  58. anon says-Because it won't remain a choice.
    Because the option would come with intolerable strings. (Someone here has already mentioned pre-testing).
    Because a whole structure will be built to administer it. It will become the round hole all of us square pegs will end up being hammered through.

    Only if your weak and allow it to become like this!

    ReplyDelete
  59. anon says-I actually (for the first time) agree with Peter and Carol today. I think it could be a good thing for some people to have the choice to receive funding from the LA if they want to. What is wrong with choice?

    mmny thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  60. Loz-However, it becomes a concern to me if my children fail and become jobless because they are unable to compete for jobs, because they dont have 'qualifications' which reflect their ability.

    so if you dont have a job where you pay tax you have failed?

    ReplyDelete
  61. Loz said "Sounds a bit like dangling a carrot to me."

    Sadly it is dangling a carrot - something which I do NOT like. Realistically though governments dont tend to give something for nothing. If I were told there was money if I registered, assuming I needed such money of course, I would possibly be inclined to take up this service.
    Equally, if a government were giving out money, it would kind of make sense that they would want to know where it was going, how it was being used.
    Im not sure how to get around the carrot effect.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Loz says-Im not sure how to get around the carrot effect.

    only if your weak does the carrot have any effect!

    ReplyDelete
  63. Carrots ALWAYS come with sticks.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Carrots ALWAYS come with sticks

    only if your weak some people are weak like old Webb!

    ReplyDelete
  65. 'only if your weak some people are weak like old Webb!'

    And some people can't use their imagination, haven't learned from history and have never heard the term 'mission creep'.

    You are obsessed with the idea of weakness in others, Peter. It's all very odd and not particularly helpful.

    ReplyDelete
  66. 'You are obsessed with the idea of weakness in others, Peter. It's all very odd and not particularly helpful.'

    One suspects that he teaches his son to feel the same way. Here is Mr Williams speculating about his son playing a game of chess with my daughter:


    'Peter wants to play your daughter a game of chess and really crush her! just take all the life out of the position like a big snake wrapping its self around her! he destroy her in a game of chess! '

    ReplyDelete
  67. Old Webb says-Here is Mr Williams speculating about his son playing a game of chess with my daughter:


    talking of chess why did your daughter NEVER get a British Chess federation chess grade? i have checked the records and can find no game that your daughter played that was graded why is this?

    All serious chess games are graded by the British chess federation Peter your be pleased to know has a Britsh chess federation grade Peter also has an internatinal chess grade as well something else your daughter does not have!Why is this?

    ReplyDelete
  68. You only get a published BCF grade if you pay them money. They might maintain it for their own use in grading everyone else but it's not made available without £££ up front. I had one many years ago but I haven't played competitive chess for a long time now.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Dave H says-You only get a published BCF grade if you pay them money. They might maintain it for their own use in grading everyone else but it's not made available without £££ up front. I had one many years ago but I haven't played competitive chess for a long time now.

    All serious chess tournment games are graded by the britsh chess federation! The British chess federation DO NOT keep a grading data bass of non graded games.
    All serious junior chess games are also graded i can find no games of Webb daughter that where graded!

    ReplyDelete
  70. You're so busy trying to score points that you failed to read what I said. If she was never a member of the BCF then although they might have kept a record of her grade for use in grading others, it would not have been published.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Dave H says-Dave H said...

    You're so busy trying to score points that you failed to read what I said. If she was never a member of the BCF then although they might have kept a record of her grade for use in grading others, it would not have been published.

    You do not have to be a member of the British chess federation to get a British chess federation grade! if you have played a graded chess game it would have been published! so i ask again why does Webb daughter not have a chess grade?
    The British chess federation does keep a record of all inactive chess players grades i have checked for Webb daughter and it is also not on this list as well this means she has never played a rated graded chess game.you do not have to be a member to be on this list.
    If you would give your full name and club you played for i could check your inactive grade this would gives an idea of how well you used
    to play?

    To get An international chess grade you must be a member of your national federation Peter of couse has an internatinal chess grade as he is a member of the british chess federation.

    Al serious chess players have a chess grade and use this to measure how well you are inpoving and to see how others are inpoving! Junior chess grades are looked at very carefully to see who is moving up or down the ladder! it would appear that Webb daughter never got onto the ladder!

    ReplyDelete
  72. ' so i ask again why does Webb daughter not have a chess grade?'

    Perhaps it was just a hobby of hers, one of several, rather than being her life's work?

    ReplyDelete
  73. Old Webb says-Perhaps it was just a hobby of hers, one of several, rather than being her life's work?

    In other words she just could not "cut the mustard" it was way to hard for her and she failed to get a chess grade. maybe it was a reflection on the person who taught her chess?

    ReplyDelete
  74. As I say, she had many hobbies at that time and chess was one of them. I was not sorry when she stopped, because what with bell ringing, birdwatching, ballet, gymanastics, guitar, piano, Girl's Brigade, church, fencing and a few other things; her life was getting a little crowded. Hardly enough time left for the important things like academic work!

    ReplyDelete
  75. I repeat
    In other words she just could not "cut the mustard" it was way to hard for her and she failed to get a chess grade. maybe it was a reflection on the person who taught her chess?

    was it you who taught her?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Peter and Carol - You rude, nasty, venomous individuals. No wonder Hampshire CC thought you were nothing but trouble.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Anonymous said...

    Peter and Carol - You rude, nasty, venomous individuals. No wonder Hampshire CC thought you were nothing but trouble.

    OMG are where supposed to be scared of your statement? Who are you any way come round to our house and say that statement? I say is is you who are rude nasty and nothing but trouble LOL

    Im afraid it is Hampshire County council who are trouble!

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