Over the last two days I have explained how informal education may be used to cover anything from learning to read to studying for GCSEs. Several important points were raised by people commenting here and I thought it worth addressing three of them in detail. These were the extent to which concepts in a subject like physics could be taught informally, what would happen if a child were completely incurious about the world and asked no questions and finally, what would happen if one told the local authority that one intended to cover a certain topic and then found it impossible to do so? This last relates to the 'plan of education' which was recommended in the Children, Schools and Families Bill and to which many home educating parents objected.
I propose to teach quite a complex topic to a child who has neither asked about it nor shown any interest in or desire to learn about physics. We will be teaching the difference between transverse and longitudinal waves; something of which many adults are quite ignorant. We will also be explaining the concept of polarisation; again, something which most adults do not really understand. This is a part of the Edexcel IGCSE physics specification. The child can be any age between seven and sixteen and may be completely illiterate, have learning difficulties or be on the autistic spectrum.
We will be begin by suggesting to our incurious and reluctant pupil that we make and play in the garden with a tin-can telephone. For those of us who grew up in the 1950s, this was as close as we got to mobile telephones. We take two empty tins and bore holes in the bottom of them. We then take a very long piece of twine or fishing line and pass it through the holes. Make big knots in the ends and then move so that you and the child each have a tin-can and are standing about fifty yards from each other. If the child puts her tin-can to her ear and you keep the line stretched taut, then anything you say will be transmitted along the line and heard by the child. Believe me, you can have a lot of fun with this!
After you have played like this, for the whole morning if the child wishes, you can produce a cheap plastic slinky and start fiddling with it. At the same time, ask the child if she can guess how the sound of her voice travelled along the line. You can show her that if you stretch out the slinky and jerk one end, then a wave of compressions will pass along the length of it. Invite her to have a go. You can then play with the slinky for a while. Explain that a wave is simply the disturbance of particles in something and that just as the wave of compressions moves along the slinky, so too did the vibrations of her voice travel along the line to your tin can. Tell her that this type of wave, which moves in the same direction as the direction it is travelling, is called a longitudinal wave. Sound travels in longitudinal waves as the air is squashed and the compressions move. You can tell her that this is the so-called P wave in earthquakes and you can then explore how earthquakes occur by building something on a table with wooden bricks and then kicking the table. The building falls down and you can explain that the longitudinal wave transmitted the energy of your kick to the building. Good chance to talk about how waves can carry energy. You can go on to explain the meaning of terms like 'epicentre' if you wish. S waves in earthquakes can also be demonstrated at this point with a bowl of jelly, but we are now veering too far from our initial plan.
In the afternoon, you can experiment with a skipping rope. Take one end each and create waves in it by flicking it up and down. This is fun! After a while, explain that this is a different type of wave. This is not caused by the rope being compressed or squashed, but by a wave which moves at right angles to the direction of travel. This is called a transverse wave. Light is a transverse wave in tiny particles called photons. Take a large piece of cardboard and cut a slit about two feet long in it. If you thread the skipping rope through this slit and a friend holds the cardboard with the slit upright, the waves that you and the child make will pass through it. If the friend now turns the cardboard so that the slit is horizontal; the waves will be blocked. This is polarisation. Now is a good time to get a couple of pairs of polarised sunglasses and rotate them one against the other until all the light is blocked in this way.
It will be observed that none of this teaching relied upon the child's curiosity. It has been suggested over the last few days that I was lucky in that my child was lively and inquisitive and that other children might not be as interested in the world or ask as many questions about it. I do not personally subscribe to this view of children. I think that with very few exceptions, all children are inquisitive and curious about the world. I believe that formal education at school often destroys this curiosity. Another point raised was that if one had told the local authority that one planned to teach this or that topic, what would happen if the child was reluctant to learn about it? What would you tell the local authority a year later, as to why you hadn't covered this? All I can say is that having written that I was going to teach about transverse and longitudinal waves, I cannot see why in the course of the summer I would not make a tin-can telephone and play with a skipping rope like this. What would prevent me from doing so?
I have demonstrated, I hope, that even a subject like GCSE physics can be explored informally, although still working closely to a curriculum. There are those though, who are opposed on ideological grounds from teaching children in this way according to a curriculum. They claim that it stifles the child's curiosity and damages their inherent love of learning. In other words, although it may be possible to do such a thing, they feel that it is actually harmful to a child's development to do so. I find this baffling! What possible harm could result to a child from playing with a tin-can telephone, fooling around with a slinky and jerking a skipping rope up and down?
I shall leave this topic now, as I have spent three days covering it. I realise that many home educating parents will regard all this, the use of curricula and so on, as the Devil's work and so be it. The thing can be done, but if some parents honestly believe that it is wrong to play with your child in this way and talk to her, then there is really no more to be said on the subject and tomorrow I shall be discussing something quite different.
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'It will be observed that none of this teaching relied upon the child's curiosity. It has been suggested over the last few days that I was lucky in that my child was lively and inquisitive and that other children might not be as interested in the world or ask as many questions about it'
ReplyDeleteIs was also implied that your child must have been weak-willed. Sigh...
I really think you have a useful book in you, Simon, something that will encourage informal educators who are not AE to believe in their capacity to teach without the child being tied to a work or textbook.
'I really think you have a useful book in you, Simon'
ReplyDeleteThank you Anonymous. I think though that for many, my last book; Elective Home Education in the UK (Trentham Books, available from all good bookshops!), was already one book too many.
I'm not how helpful that one was to the HE community. I do think you could be *helpful* too.
ReplyDeleteOoops! I'm not 'sure' how helpful, is what I meant to write.
ReplyDeleteI think the situation I had in mind was one like this:
ReplyDeleteIt's one of the rare days when my children are at a loose end. I think 'what a good opportunity to explore the difference between transverse and longitudinal waves'. We tootle into the garden with our cans and string. My daughter starts playing with the cat and my son develops a profound (and unusual, for him) interest in the behaviour of the frogs in the pond. We end up spending the morning learning about food chains in aquatic environments.
After lunch, my daughter finds the cans and string, makes them into a pair of stilts and staggers all over the lawn pursued by her brother. My son demands his own cans and string and then a cardboard box. He makes a very effective trap for the cat, using a piece of cheese as bait. We think about the design cycle, do some drawings and film the outcome.
The children (and the cat) have learned a great deal and had a lot of fun, but they are still none the wiser about transverse or longitudinal waves.
I'm a past master at opportunistic learning; a comment about longitudinal or transverse waves can be slipped in when the children are seeing if they can make a telephone out of shop-bought pair of bucket-and-string stilts, or - more likely in our house - during a conversation about particle physics. I'm also a past master at doing the activity myself and waiting for the children to say 'what are you doing?' and then explaining, or - as is often the case - ignoring me completely. Not to mention locating a library book on the topic and leaving it casually lying around in my son's bedroom, or putting up a display on the notice board which my daughter studies while she's eating her dinner.
But I can't guarantee that I will be able to convey the gist of this topic between 1st September one year and 31st August the next.
In our home, my children rarely respond to my suggestions for activities in the way you describe. Maybe it's because you home educated your daughter from birth, so that's the way she thinks life works - the parent thinks up cool activities and she joins in. In our family, it's more like the Generation Game with me taking the part of both competing teams and my children taking it in turns to be Bruce Forsyth.
Well of course, the situations you describe happened in our house too suzyg. Since I was juggling in my mind half a dozen IGCSE specifications, it was easy enough to switch from transverse waves to the food chain and amphibians. This is actually the first year that we have not had frogspawn on the kitchen window sill and watched it turn into tadpoles and frogs. Another bone of contention over the years with my wife, as it more than once got knocked over. The ant farm and also the slug farm were great hits too, especially when the slugs escaped.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThat was actually me, but a family member's alter ego got in first!
ReplyDeleteJust to undelete the comment Simon replied to;
ReplyDeleteYou still haven't answered my question:
What would you have done if your daughter had not complied with your suggestions for activities often enough for you to be able to tick off the majority of topics that you planned to cover from a list you supplied to the LA? You would have more than half a dozen IGCSE specifications in mind for a year's home education, presumably.
I'm beginning to suspect you would have sidetracked any LA officer making inquiries with tales of your wife's encounters with local wildlife, alive and dead, just as you are doing now.
I am getting slightly puzzled by all these references to local authorities who demand a detailed curriculum for the coming year in every subject. I only gave the broadest outline of what we would be covering; that physics and biology were being taken at IGCSE and so on. Are things very different in Shropshire or is this an hypothetical question relating to what the situation would have been had Schedule 1 of the CSF Bill been passed? I am a little confused.
ReplyDeleteI only tell my LA what we've *done* not what we're going to do. But a point that 'autonomous' home educators often make is that if the government decides to define what constitutes a suitable education and LAs expect the parent to demonstrate that their provision has achieved what it set out to achieve, anyone not using a formal curriculum could have a problem.
ReplyDeleteMany parents report that when their children come to prepare for exams, they have covered much of the syllabus already, just not necessarily in the same order. In our case, it's not always possible to predict in advance what we'll be learning.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"It has been suggested over the last few days that I was lucky in that my child was lively and inquisitive and that other children might not be as interested in the world or ask as many questions about it."
I don't think that's quite what they were asking. They were asking what you would do if the child didn't ask questions appropriate to your planned curriculum, quite a difference.
"I do not personally subscribe to this view of children. I think that with very few exceptions, all children are inquisitive and curious about the world."
That's why autonomous educators believe autonomous education works so well. We just disagree with your belief that they will not be inquisitive and curious enough to gain a wide range of information and knowledge about the world - sufficient to provide a suitable education. You seem to believe that the only way to achieve a suitable education is if the parent directs and controls the child's inquisitiveness and curiosity. Autonomous educators believe that this is unnecessary and I have seen that it is unnecessary.
"What would you tell the local authority a year later, as to why you hadn't covered this? All I can say is that having written that I was going to teach about transverse and longitudinal waves, I cannot see why in the course of the summer I would not make a tin-can telephone and play with a skipping rope like this. What would prevent me from doing so?"
Of course that's not a problem for you, because you are controlling and directing the child's inquisitiveness and curiosity, something autonomous educators do not believe is necessary or desirable. Though you seem to have been blessed with a child who never ignores information they are currently not especially interested in learning. I know plenty of children who would happily play with a slinky but tune out the p-wave discussion or who are far more interested in repeatedly jumping off the climbing frame than play with the rather boring tin can phone (especially if they have walkie-talkies since tin can phones have never been that successful in our experience).
However, many early life experiences help make sense of text book physics when a child becomes interested in study for studies sake or because they have decided they need qualifications. The parallel discussion at the time (if it happened) will often be forgotten but the rope wave itself will be remembered and visualized when that part in the text book is reached. A child will have far more of these freely gained memories than those gained as a result of direction by adults even in a parent-led education household.
'tales of your wife's encounters with local wildlife, alive and dead, just as you are doing now'
ReplyDeleteOnce again, I am reluctantly obliged to remind readers that this is a personal blog rather than an academic journal. I will be the first to concede that folksy anecdotes about my wife and kids are not everybody's cup of tea, but such things are very much what one is liable to find on a blog like this. There are fortunately many other blogs on the internet and so if the tone of one does not suit us, we can generally find another which does.
'Though you seem to have been blessed with a child who never ignores information they are currently not especially interested in learning.'
ReplyDeleteI must have given quite the wrong impression here; of course she ignored information. That is why the process was continuous and so if the concept was not picked up in one way on one day, it would be absorbed in another way a week, month or year later. I dare say that 80% of what I taught in this way was ignored or forgotten initially!
"Though you seem to have been blessed with a child who never ignores information they are currently not especially interested in learning."
ReplyDeleteIndeed. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have been holding forth about something highly educational, while washing up, to have turned around and found I was now speaking to an empty room.
Very interesting post though, Simon.
'Indeed. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have been holding forth about something highly educational, while washing up, to have turned around and found I was now speaking to an empty room.'
ReplyDeleteA common enough experience! I doubt that there can be many home educators to whom this does not happen regularly; certainly a scenario which I recognise.
"Is was also implied that your child must have been weak-willed. Sigh..."
ReplyDeleteOnly because that's how Simon wrote those descriptions. I doubt Simone always went along with Simon's games quite so compliantly! That was the point.
Who is Eleanor/Elise? The profile matches suzyg astonishingly well and I cannot believe that there are two people so similar living at number eight. Is this a hitherto unknown identical twin? Come suzyg, you should tell us; in what sense is this person an alter ego?
ReplyDelete'Only because that's how Simon wrote those descriptions. I doubt Simone always went along with Simon's games quite so compliantly! That was the point.'
ReplyDeleteI think most children would be interested in seeing a fox's head chopped off with the garden spade. She didn't need to go along with any game; just stand there in horrified fascination!
"I realise that many home educating parents will regard all this, the use of curricula and so on, as the Devil's work and so be it."
ReplyDeleteAs an autonomous educator I'm more than happy for you to use a curriculum if that's what you want to do. Just because I wouldn't choose to use one myself (unless my child selected it) doesn't mean that I think they are the Devil's work - I just don't think they are invariably necessary. It's you that have demonized autonomous educators as child abusers who should be stopped.
I would like to have some questions answered by any autonomous home educators as I want to understand how the process works better.
ReplyDeleteWould I be correct in saying that the AEHE on any typical day wouldn't stage or attempt to coerce their childs learning but would, instead observe what their children are doing, and take any opportunity that arises to 'informally teach' their children through 'subject expansion' so like the example the above poster gave of children looking at frogs - you may start discribing aquatic food chains etc gradually building on the original question or interest? So you would endeavour to provide plenty of environmental stimulation or a 'learning rich' environment so that questions and curiosity arises?
What do you do in a situation where you do not know the subject in depth? So Simon talked about telling the child that using a tin can to make a pretend telephone is an example of longitudinal waves in action. But what if you don't have all the knowledge or understanding required to explain this concept to your child and the opportunity to explain is lost? what do you do then?
These questions may be annoying, and I may not be putting it well, but I am genuinely interested and want to understand more. I can't think of another place I can ask without it becoming...difficult.
"I think most children would be interested in seeing a fox's head chopped off with the garden spade. She didn't need to go along with any game; just stand there in horrified fascination!"
ReplyDeleteProbably. I also know children who have initiated similar activities themselves without any help from adults. But I also know plenty of children who tired very quickly of tin can phones and making waves with ropes, certainly long before descriptions of the physics behind them could be given.
Anonymous wrote,
ReplyDelete"Would I be correct in saying that the AEHE on any typical day wouldn't stage or attempt to coerce their childs learning but would, "
Yes to the non-coercion but there's nothing wrong with a parent suggesting activities that the child might like as long as the child is free to do them or not.
"So you would endeavour to provide plenty of environmental stimulation or a 'learning rich' environment so that questions and curiosity arises?"
Yes. Without resources they are unlikely to discover where their interests lie.
"What do you do in a situation where you do not know the subject in depth?"
Find out together, then the child learns not only the answer to the question, but also various strategies for finding answers they can use themselves (and they also learn that adults are not usually fonts of all knowledge, that it's OK to not know something).
"I think most children would be interested in seeing a fox's head chopped off with the garden spade. She didn't need to go along with any game; just stand there in horrified fascination! "
ReplyDeleteIf you tried that now and social services got to hear of it, you'd be drowning in bureaucracy because I'm sure it's not considered appropriate to inflict such horrors on innocent children. Even if they did allow it, they'd want to see your risk assessment, and a certificate for attending an appropriate spade training course and a plan for disposing of the remains in a manner that was suitably green and didn't offend any minority groups.
I think I'm starting to understand a bit better now. Ironically it is Simon's posts which has aided my understanding of how AE can work - although he insists he never AE - it sounds remarkably similar.
ReplyDelete"Find out together, then the child learns not only the answer to the question, but also various strategies for finding answers they can use themselves (and they also learn that adults are not usually fonts of all knowledge, that it's OK to not know something)."
O.k so could that entail going to look at a book, film, internet etc to find out the answer even if the original opportunity that caused,the interest had finished and the child wasn't necessarily all that bothered anymore? Sometimes I find that my children show interest in something but lose interest the moment we start going into depth. I think this is part of the reason why I use structure and textbooks. I just don't feel confident that they'll always happily absorb what (admittedly I think) they need to know informally, and I don't always have the knowledge to teach them through talking etc. How do AEHE get past this problem, or do you just trust that they'll get where they need to be in the end? And if so what gives you such confidence?
"O.k so could that entail going to look at a book, film, internet etc to find out the answer even if the original opportunity that caused,the interest had finished and the child wasn't necessarily all that bothered anymore?"
ReplyDeleteYes to the first bit and probably no to the second if to continue would be coercive. I'll often continue looking for my own interest when this happens and we found that this kind of 'research stamina' increased with age! They were often quite interested in a condensed version of the information I found at some point in the future even if they are not interested enough to find out for themselves.
"I think this is part of the reason why I use structure and textbooks. I just don't feel confident that they'll always happily absorb what (admittedly I think) they need to know informally, and I don't always have the knowledge to teach them through talking etc."
Structure and textbooks can also be used in AE too as children also see their benefits, especially if a parent lacks knowledge in that area. For example, one of my children has taken a couple of correspondence courses, another decided to learn to read using the Toe by Toe phonics scheme and another worked through a maths text book. They also found other people to fill the gaps sometimes, offering to trade working in a shop for free tuition with a dressmaker in one case and volunteering in others.
"How do AEHE get past this problem, or do you just trust that they'll get where they need to be in the end? And if so what gives you such confidence?"
Our belief that it would work developed partly from our own experiences of learning both before and after school and also from watching our children learn as they grew. Obviously it's easier for me now that they are grown because I can see that it has worked but it had its nerve racking moments as I'm sure all HE does.
...and also we met a few families with older children who used the same approach so we saw that it worked well for them too.
ReplyDelete"They also found other people to fill the gaps sometimes"
ReplyDeleteThat's vital for us. In our local home ed community we run a weekly group for older children where different activities are offered for either a one off session or over a few weeks. That's been great for one of my children who has had first aid training, learnt to sew a garment from a pattern and numerous other things we couldn't necessarily help with very easily. The children just sign up for the things that interest them.
On an informal basis we make a lot of use of members of our extended family who can often help if/when we get stuck.
Yes, how could I forget HE group activities and family? Not only useful for filling known gaps but also for finding new interests of course.
ReplyDeleteThank you for explaining. I'm still processing but my view about AE is going through a change. I think I finally get what the AE ideal is, and at least how the concept can be applied in real life.
ReplyDeleteI suppose that AE does not always present immediately demostratable 'concrete' results. By that I mean written work, reading proficiency at set age - markers of the type you would more likely see in a structured setting. Things could be going on internally that perhaps as an outsider you cannot observe if you're not involved in the process in any way. Although why this should be difficult to appreciate I'm not sure as even the most structured or non-HE person would agree that childen are processing information all the time regardless of whether it is in a formal capacity or not.
Thank you for explaining. I think I understand what the ideal of AE is now and at least how it can be applied in real life. Not sure if I'm as brave and trusting as AEHE are though - no, i'm not - would like to be though, but I think I can see the benefits of possibly being a more hands-off. I think I would need to actually live in with a AEHE family for a few months before I could appreciate it fully though. I wish there was an online video diary or something!
ReplyDeleteI do think AEHE don't always present their case well either though. It often comes across as 'not any formal teaching' or just 'not teaching full stop' For e.g. I have been told that if I use workbooks with my children 'I might as well put them in school' rather than 'we'll use workbooks if appropriate or the child wants to' etc.
Far too many 'thoughs' need an edit button! And wheres my other post gone?
ReplyDelete"Not sure if I'm as brave and trusting as AEHE are though - no, i'm not - would like to be though, but I think I can see the benefits of possibly being a more hands-off."
ReplyDeleteI think most home educators use a mix of parent-led and child-led education quite naturally - certainly Simon does from what he says. I mean, you wouldn't refuse to follow up on an interest just because it came from your child rather than you, would you? AE is just that taken to the extreme, partly because the theory suggests that intrinsic motivation can be damaged by extrinsic motivation. Obviously (assuming there is truth to this theory and there is research to support it) this damage can never be complete or necessarily that great or nobody would ever choose to learn anything after they leave school!
"I do think AEHE don't always present their case well either though. It often comes across as 'not any formal teaching' or just 'not teaching full stop' For e.g. I have been told that if I use workbooks with my children 'I might as well put them in school' rather than 'we'll use workbooks if appropriate or the child wants to' etc."
I think some people confuse 'informal education' with AE, even those that claim they are AE (unless I'm the confused one, of course). But if you think about it, many children actually enjoy workbooks. So if your child wants to do them and you prevented that, you would be coercing your child, so how can you be autonomous since non-coercion is central to AE?
Thank you so much for these three posts, Simon. I agree with earlier posters that you have a great book in you. I would add that that book would be very much embraced by US-style 'unschoolers' as well as more textbooky folks like me.
ReplyDeleteAnyone looking for detailed descriptions and suggestions for these types of lessons before your book is done might be interested in Dr Nebel's Elementary Education and the related books, as well as Family Math and the related titles, which are all about teaching math and science in this way (though mostly to younger children). Both are on Amazon.
Please write a book on all this, Simon!
"I think most home educators use a mix of parent-led and child-led education quite naturally...I mean, you wouldn't refuse to follow up on an interest just because it came from your child rather than you, would you?"
ReplyDeleteNo you're completely right I wouldn't.
"I think some people confuse 'informal education' with AE, even those that claim they are AE"
Thanks for including this bit. Yes, I absolutely agree with you, it would explain why I keep getting confused between the different interpretations of autonomous and what it can and cannot include.
On the American sites, people have started to make a distinction between "unschoolers" (who do things much as you describe above) and "radical unschoolers (who practice ideological British-style AE). One thing that this has made clear is that there are vanishingly few "radical unschoolers". Even most of the leaders of unschooling (Sandra Dodd comes to mind) are closer to what you describe than to a "taking children seriously" type of set-up, despite their general opposition to testing.
ReplyDeleteHow do you define the difference between unschoolers and radical unschoolers?
ReplyDeleteRads don't strew.
ReplyDeleteToo manipulative.
How can you not 'strew' and have a home? Are you suggesting that there are home educators without books, access to the internet and who do not take their children out to museums, other peoples homes or other places of interest? What's the difference between that and 'strewing'?
ReplyDelete