I wrote a few days ago of the fact that home education will ultimately be judged by professionals to the extent that it succeeds in educating children and preparing them for adult life. I want to look today at what we know of the outcomes for home educated children as they become teenagers and adults.
I have in the past been reproached for supposedly being preoccupied with the importance of GCSEs as a measure of education. I want to look beyond this widely used indicator of educational success, but first let us look at how home education does measure up using this criterion. Data are not generally available, but where they are they are not encouraging. In 2009 information became available about the educational attainment of home educated children known to the local authority in Dudley, a town in the midlands. It was revealed that only half took any GCSEs at all, as opposed to the national average of 98% and that 10% of the home educated children had achieved five GCSEs, including mathematics and English, at grades A*-C. This is a fifth of the national figure.
Still, it has been argued here, GCSEs are not everything. Indeed they are not. Many people becoming rich and famous without attending university or indeed gaining any qualifications. Others, while not becoming rich and famous, go on to have careers in any number of fields. If we look at school based education, the great majority of pupils will leave school and get jobs. Many of these jobs will be in shops and offices, factories, warehouses and farms. Some though will become solicitors and accountants, architects and doctors. Still others will have careers as writers, artists and musicians. Is this the same situation for home educated young people?
I am a little puzzled that after the phenomenal growth in home education over the last decade or two, with tens of thousands of young people having been home educated each year; we have yet to hear of a single home educated professional; not one doctor or solicitor, no engineers or architects. Of course, most families lose contact with the home educating community as the children reach sixteen; that is only to be expected. However, I would have thought that at least a few people's outcomes would be known. Depressingly, the few that we do hear of seem unable to leave their parents and live independently. I am thinking of the publishing company in Wales where all the employees seem to be the formerly home educated children of the founder, the family farms where other home educated children end up working. Does anybody actually know of any professionals who were home educated? A few go on to university, but what happens then?
If home education compares favourably to school on a purely educational basis, there must by now be quite a few teachers and nurses, bank managers and surveyors who did not go to school. Can anybody on here tell us about a few of them?
You might find that 'teacher' is not high on the list of professions. As for outcomes, I know one local is in his second year at Cambridge and another has an offer there for this year. I'm aware of others who've gone off to various universities around the country so it's certainly not unheard of. There's another setting up his own business rather than go to university, which is probably as good an outcome given the way the government (both this one and its predecessor) has screwed up higher education and devalued the degree while increasing its cost.
ReplyDeleteThere are several issues that come to mind in response to this, all of which, I am pretty sure, come up every time you write a post similar to this one.
ReplyDelete1. Not everyone chooses (I)GCSE's for their kids, though I did. Some do Btec's, such as many in the Beds area. Some go straight to AS's, some do OU exams instead and some go straight into employment. I know kids who have done all the above.
2. Many people go to colleges or 6th Forms at 16, so no longer think of themselves as 'Home Educated'. My own son, doing A Levels at FE, doesn't think of himself as HE'd any more. And, in a way, he isn't. All my kids' friends who were HE'd for most of their lives are either doing A Levels or vocational courses now or are at uni or employed after uni.
3. One of the first home educators I ever met had a son who, inexplicably, after studying Physics at Brunel, went on to be a primary school teacher. LOL! Much to his mother's amusement. Unfortunately, I lost touch with the family years ago. That's the thing, though. People move on from HE. Once in the professions you mention, their families are older, not involved with HE anymore and they are 'out of the loop'. Very few people would even want to put themselves forward for newspaper articles etc as a product of a particular form of education. Why would they? I shudder at the thought of it.
The problem is that, as usual, you are extrapolating too far from the tiny number of HE families you know or know about. And I believe that the couple of people whom you seem to have in mind have adult children on the Autistic spectrum, so it is hardly surprising that they are still at home, is it?
Yes, it would be useful to have such long-term follow up research on HE'd kids, but the lack of it does not mean they are all NEET or languishing in Young Offender Institutions which is something you've tried to imply in early posts here.
Okay... slightly tricky because most of the ones I know really well are at the same age as my dd so still 'off to uni' age, but yes, I do know some home educators in real life who are "out there in the world of work" and who would meet your criteria - a midwife (although now mothering her own baby, a teacher, an accountant... all these come to mind without much effort! I know several who have jobs that won't fit your criteria but who are just as successful (and probably better paid) eg electrician....
ReplyDeleteAS I have often said, we have a large family by UK standards, and most of the children went to school. Yet if you look at my children, not all of them have gone to uni either, despite traditional schooling and a family who has parents who are both graduates themselves; so I am sure the outcomes of home educated children are equally varied.
'The problem is that, as usual, you are extrapolating too far from the tiny number of HE families you know or know about. '
ReplyDeleteThis is not really the case at all. We hear from time to time in the media of home educated children going to university. Dave H mentions such cases above. I do not know the families, but am aware of their names through newspapers and so on. I am simply asking if anybody knows of any formerly home edcuated people who have careers in any professional field. I do not know any personally, but I am assuming that others might do so. I am also guessing that you youreself do not know any such, otherwise you would prbably have mentioned them.
'Yet if you look at my children, not all of them have gone to uni either, despite traditional schooling and a family who has parents who are both graduates themselves; so I am sure the outcomes of home educated children are equally varied.'
ReplyDeleteYes, I wasn't really thinking of university as being the yardstick here. It is quite possible to be a writer or musician without attending university. I am sure we all know of the young man who wrote Eragion, the fantasy novel. He is American and home educated. Does anybody know of any artists or other creative types like that in this country? The midwife and accountant are interesting to hear of, Julie. I wonder f anybody else has any information on this sort of thing?
'I do not know any personally, but I am assuming that others might do so. I am also guessing that you youreself do not know any such, otherwise you would prbably have mentioned them.'
ReplyDeleteI just did!
'One of the first home educators I ever met had a son who, inexplicably, after studying Physics at Brunel, went on to be a primary school teacher. LOL! Much to his mother's amusement.'
And there are others, one engineer, one works for a national charity, one is an editor in a publishing house. My kids are aged 17-20, so most of their peers are in college or uni right now, most are not yet employed.
Of course you don't know any personally, Simon. That's clear from your post.
Odd that a simple request for information about this should draw such a defensive response.
ReplyDeleteIf people didn't reply to this, you'd see it as confirmation of your negative bias. Yet when they do reply in contradiction of that, they're being 'defensive'. Heads you win, tails they lose.
ReplyDelete' Heads you win, tails they lose.'
ReplyDeleteI was referring not to the examples given of home educated people becoming midwives and primary school teachers. This is interesting. I was thinking more about the references to Young Offenders Institutions. There was nothing in my post about this and so it sounded defensive.
Simon said "was thinking more about the references to Young Offenders Institutions."
ReplyDeletebut isn't that because you raised this in a previous post? ( -and certainly Badman had a things about NEETS!)
'Simon said "was thinking more about the references to Young Offenders Institutions."
ReplyDeletebut isn't that because you raised this in a previous post?'
Indeed. It was a ridiculous assertion then, which you defended when people citicised you for it. Have you changed your mind about that since then, Simon?
I don't understand how referring to a position you, at least, at one time, had, is 'defensive' or 'odd'. I'm not feeling at all defensive today and only a little bit odd ;-)
'Indeed. It was a ridiculous assertion then, which you defended when people citicised you for it. Have you changed your mind about that since then, Simon?'
ReplyDeleteIf you mean, do I believe that there is a correltion between the educational attainments of young people and the statistical chances of their ending up in the criminal justice system, then no; I have not changed my mind about this. In the average prison there are very many inmates with no qualifications at all and very few with degrees. I doubt that anybody would disagree with his. I do not think though that this means that not taking GCSEs means that you will end up in a Young Offenders Institution.
No, of course that's not what I meant. A long time ago, here in this blog, you asserted that Youth Offender institutions would be full of ex-HE'd children because of the poor educations you believed they were getting.
ReplyDeleteOthers may have the time to search for these references, but I don't, I'm afraid.
If you changed your mind about this and you don't now believe the prison population is disproportionately full of ex-HE'd kids, that's great! You could just say so?
I'm surprised you don't remember those assertions. I remember them very clearly.
In fact, I remember saying that I would ask a man whom I go to church with who is a prison governor if he'd heard of anyone in the prisons he'd served in having been HE'd. I forgot to ask. Will do so the next time I see him!
ReplyDelete'A long time ago, here in this blog, you asserted that Youth Offender institutions would be full of ex-HE'd children because of the poor educations you believed they were getting.'
ReplyDeleteI love it when home educators engage in black propaganda of this sort! This is sheer nonsense. I have never said anything at all about Youth Offender Institutions being full of home educated children. I posted here on November 18th 2009 and somebody commented on my post, saying,
' As for your fears about all those people who have been let down by their HE'ing parents over the decades, languishing on the dole queue, or in youth offender institutions'
Since I had never said anything at all about this, I was puzzled to read this. What has happened is that people have read this comment and attributed to to me. All the stuff about home edcuated children being in Youth Offenders Institutions has come from idiots commenting here. Probably the same person who wrote today of:
'languishing in Young Offender Institutions which is something you've tried to imply in early posts here.'
Note well the same use of the word languishing, both on November 18th 2009 and also today. This is somebody who has invented a little fantasy around what I am supposed to have said.
Here is the post which I made on 18/11/09 which prompted the comment about Youth Offender Institutions:
ReplyDeleteThe two perspectives could hardly be more different. To most people working in the field of education and social care; it is a grotesque anomaly. Getting on for a hundred thousand children about whose education hardly anything is known. Are they passing GCSEs? Nobody knows. What percentage go on to become NEETS? We have no idea. Are they as literate as the general population? Couldn't really say. I mean, it's absurd! It has to be said that this view is probably shared by many ordinary people. On the other side are the parents of the children in question. To them, any attempt to change the law or even ask too many questions about the situation is a gross intrusion into their private life; a flagrant breach of the rights of both parent and child. Outrageous!
The law covering home education is to be found in the 1996 Education Act. The wording of this act in respect of home education was lifted practically intact from the 1944 Education Act. The relevant words, those concerning a suitable education to be obtained, "By regular attendance at school or otherwise", were inserted into the act not to legitimise home education but to allow the upper and middle classes to continue engaging governesses and tutors for their children. It is I think, safe to say that the idea that parents would one day use this section of the act to justify teaching their own children out of school never for a moment crossed the mind of anybody in the legislature. Yet here we are, sixty five years later, and those few words are still the only thing that the law has to say on the subject of home education. In other words, the education of perhaps eighty thousand children is regulated by a couple of chance sentences in an old act of parliament.
Any objective observer would probably agree that with the numbers of children educated out of school rising inexorably, it really is time for a law which specifically sanctions and regulates the practice of home education. About the details of such a law, there will be no universal agreement; that is inevitable. But about the need for some sort of legal framework there is consensus, except of course among the home educating families themselves. But this is often the case. Individuals and communities who are closely bound up in some peculiar and outlandish activity often have difficulty understanding how others view their special interest. The incomprehension on the face of the steam engine fanatic when he realises that not everybody is fascinated by the Flying Scotsman. The pigeon fancier who cannot see how anybody could fail to appreciate the finer points of bird breeding. So involved are such people, that they will be wholly unable to take an objective and dispassionate view of their obsession.
So it is with home education. It is the ultimate strange hobby, a hobby which affects every aspect of the lives of its devotees. If their lifestyle brings them into conflict with the law, then so be it. The law can go hang! The Queen's speech in parliament paves the way for the registration and inspection of home educators. This is perhaps the bare minimum which most normal citizens would expect and desire for the scores of thousands of children being taught out of school. Whether the new law will be able to get pass the Lords is another matter entirely. The present administration is quite fond of invoking the Parliament Act and an important Bill involving children would be a perfect excuse for doing so should there be obstruction in the Upper House. One thing that home educators should realise is that however much they campaign, to the man on the Clapham omnibus the proposition that children taught at home should be registered and inspected is an eminently sensible one. Public opinion is not likely to be with the home educators on this matter.
In January this year, I also said of the question of GCSEs:
ReplyDeleteIn prisons, it is extremely common to find young people without a single GCSE. Among young professionals, this is unheard of. The more and better GCSEs, the better the outlook in terms of employment and higher education for a young person. This means better earnings over the course of a lifetime. This is not to say that every home educated child without GCSEs will end up in prison of course! It does mean that out of a large group of youngsters, those without GCSEs are more likely to be unemployed and less likely to go into higher education. They are also far more likely to be involved in criminal activity, using drugs and suffering from psychiatric problems. Their health tends to be poorer as well. All this tends to lower their earnings over their lifetime.
This is a long way from suggesting that Young Offender institutions are full of home educated kids! I do wish that people would engage with what I say, rather than what they think I might have said. Just for the record, I do not suppose for a moment that home edcuated children as a group are over-represented in prisons. I was talking about the desirability of formal qualifications and the correlation between the lack of them and certain negative life outcomes. It is this sort of nonsense that makes it an uphill struggle to debate with some home educators.
'I'm surprised you don't remember those assertions. I remember them very clearly.'
ReplyDeleteFalse Memory Syndrome alert!
Most of the ex home ed young people I know are still in further or higher education, but the small handful I know who have moved on from education all seem to be gainfully employed. Their career paths include working for Hansard, rope access technician, lab technician, engineer, charity fund raiser, staff nurse, gardener at an NT property, carpenter, IT support worker, own IT business. Some of these young people had significant special needs and were not succeeding in school but they all seem to have found work that they enjoy, and are living the lives they want to be living, many of them in different towns and fully independent of their parents. Their families aren't - for the most part, on the lists, so we don't hear about the kids.
ReplyDeleteI think you misrepresent the welsh publishing family too, assuming they are the ones I know. I wouldn't want to pass on any personal information but your suggestion that the 4 children do not have careers outside of the family business is misleading, as is the suggestion that they all still live at home . Not all are finished with education either.
Considering too that many of the people known to me removed kids from school due to unmet special needs, I don't actually know of any who are sitting at home doing nothing. All are involved in education, in employment, in volunteer work or business ventures.The outcomes seem pretty good.
Christine
'Just for the record, I do not suppose for a moment that home edcuated children as a group are over-represented in prisons.'
ReplyDeleteExcellent! Now we can move forward in reasoned debate.
Best wishes,
The Black Propagandist. LOL!
There are also the chap who has recently finished his PhD in bio-medecine and the young woman who is in law (can't remember whether she is a solicitor or a barrister). Did you include Caitlin Moran, the columnist? I know a young man locally currently at college but also working in the family business.
ReplyDeleteVarious lists have had posts over the years about what young people are doing now. We should be able to see more over the next 5 years or so as there is currently a large bulge in the 18+ age group. Many of those are at college or uni and we will start to hear of their employment in a few years.
'There are also the chap who has recently finished his PhD in bio-medecine '
ReplyDeleteI was just waiting for somebody to mention Chris Forde! Along with Ian Dowty's son, he is one of the cases which always crop up in a discussion of this sort. Whi is the lawyer though; I have not heard about her?
Hmmmm...all rather interesting, I know Cait rather well and her mixed views about 'home education'.
ReplyDeleteDo you know her personally or just using her as an example to prove a point?
I've read her views. I was answering the question "what are exEHE young people doing?" However, Ms Moran feels about her EHE, it is undeniable both that she was EHE and that she is gainfully employed. I tend to agree that we need an updated version of Julie Webb's book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Those-Unschooled-Minds-Home-educated-Educational/dp/1900219158).
ReplyDeleteSimon, what is the problem with mentioning Chris Ford (no 'e', I believe) and Alex Dowty? I do not know what Chris Ford is doing offhand. He finished his PhD last year. I did not mention Alex Dowty because he is still training (I believe he starts his pupillage for the bar in Sept). Again, whatever you think about them, they *were* EHE and they are now doing useful ("professional") things.
By definition, an increase over the last 10-20 years will not yet have given rise to adults older than around 30.
It's early days for our family's friends yet, most are still in education, either at home, college or university. But one friend is a graduate nurse and another two are in full time work. None, so far, are or have ever been NEET.
ReplyDelete'Simon, what is the problem with mentioning Chris Ford (no 'e', I believe) and Alex Dowty? I do not know what Chris Ford is doing offhand. He finished his PhD last year. I did not mention Alex Dowty because he is still training (I believe he starts his pupillage for the bar in Sept). Again, whatever you think about them, they *were* EHE and they are now doing useful ("professional") things.'
ReplyDeleteI have no problem at all with these two young men being mentioned. It is just that they are always mentioned and their stories presented as though their lives are typical of home education. The fact that these two always turn up as examples in this way suggests to me that other examples are a little thin on the ground.
"The fact that these two always turn up as examples in this way suggests to me that other examples are a little thin on the ground."
ReplyDeleteOr they and of course your daughter, don't mind their activities being reported in the press? If families want to do this, that's fine, but I would be very surprised if families happy with this level of publicity are not a very small minority of any group. Of the ten or so families we are closest to, only one has ever appeared in an article about HE.
One of my children gained a mention in a local newspaper because of their achievements at college, but nobody thought to mention HE when the interview took place. Maybe HE children just don't think that HE is significant enough to mention once they've moved on? Maybe it was just the way they were brought up and it seems so normal to them that it doesn't merit a mention? I've spoken to a few young people currently at college, HE and in work, and asked if the topic of HE crops up at all and it sounds as though it's rare.
Just found the info about Chris Ford. He is working as a research scientist at a foreign uni.
ReplyDelete"I've spoken to a few young people currently at college, *HE* and in work, and asked if the topic of *HE* crops up at all and it sounds as though it's rare."
ReplyDeleteThe first 'HE' being Higher Education and the second, Home Education!
That's why I use EHE for home ed - otherwise, it gets too confusing.
ReplyDeleteGood point.
ReplyDelete"Depressingly, the few that we do hear of seem unable to leave their parents and live independently."
ReplyDeleteYou dislike family run businesses? Why?
"I am thinking of the publishing company in Wales where all the employees seem to be the formerly home educated children of the founder"
All? 2 out of 4 is not all and they are probably very part time since they are at Universities away from home. Looks more like a way to earn some extra pocket money and maybe a useful tax write off.
"the family farms where other home educated children end up working."
End up working? Why would you think they 'end up' working with their parents? Do schooled children never choose to continue the family business? Why is this a bad thing?
"I wrote a few days ago of the fact that home education will ultimately be judged by professionals to the extent that it succeeds in educating children and preparing them for adult life."
ReplyDeleteShould we be judged by professionals? Or should we be judged by out children?
Or even, 'our' children?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 8:09, 2/5/11 said:
ReplyDeleteOr they and of course your daughter, don't mind their activities being reported in the press?
I meant to say that I agree with this. I also do not kno9w the outcomes for the 250-300 young people a year that leave my local 11-16 comp (which does not have great results). That does not mean I assume that they are all failing to become useful members of society.
I know one girl in Wales who did an OU degree course and got the 360 points required to turn it into a degree by the time she was 18. I won't give more details because I haven't asked her permission.
ReplyDeleteI know of at least 4 others who are doing OU degrees, starting between the ages of 13 and 15.
I think the reason we don't hear more, is because parents stop needing lists when their children are no longer being home educated so don't update us with successes.
They are out there though.
Simon, a link to the Dudley information would be appreciated.
ReplyDeleteI fail to see how Dudley could come up with correct figures. After all LAs nor Connexions do not collect them for EHE kids .So if Dudley , or any other LA for that matter decided to send round a circular requesting every EHE family to complete a questionnaire regarding GCSE attainment , I am unsure how many families would respond.
There are also the kids who go to college at 16 specifically to get GCSE's free , so they would be a year 'behind' their counterparts in school.
You'll probably find that like the questionnaire of 74 LAs for the Badman Review, families who did not respond and those kids who only went to college once they turned 16, , were counted in the 'zero attainment' category rather then the 'unknown' category. In that questionnaire, Dudley did not respond to the question
I am very interested in the attainment of HE kids at University. Some very bright HE kids I know, of very bright high achieving parents, have utterly failed to get anywhere with Uni degrees, and I suspect HE was a big factor. Because their parent's life styles were so unmaterialistic, because the kids didn't want the typical University social life, because they have been told for years how rubbish the education system and qualifications and assessments are, because they have little tolerance for the lecture/set work style of learning. So Uni degrees have little appeal. I cannot find a single study that clearly shows how well HE kids do by the age of 30yo in tertiary education, compared to their parents educational attainment, and compared to kids educated in state or private schools from the age of 11-16. Do you know of such a study?
ReplyDeleteI am now 50 and was home educated up until the age of 10. I had no real lessons at home and just played with the neighbours and my brother. He is now an MP and I am a Professor at Cambridge where I have also a founder of a start up company. I tend to think early education is not very relevant. We do not teach children to walk and we should not teach them to read and write before they are ready. I think school is important for socialising after the age of about 8 or 10, but before that children need more time with adults. It would be interesting to look at the other statistics ie how many home educated students end up in jail because the can not read or write as happens with so many school children
ReplyDeletePS Lord Sainsbury ended up running his family business and he went to school.
ReplyDeleteArticle writing is also a excitement, if you be familiar with
ReplyDeleteafterward you can write otherwise it is complex to write.
Look at my weblog :: workouts for vertical jump
This paragraph is really a pleasant one it assists new web viewers, who are wishing
ReplyDeletefor blogging.
Feel free to surf to my web-site - http://mycorresp.Com/profile.php?id=15400
I drop a leave a response whenever I especially enjoy a post on
ReplyDeletea website or if I have something to valuable to contribute to the discussion.
Usually it's caused by the passion displayed in the article I read. And on this article "Long term outcomes for home educated children". I was moved enough to drop a comment ;) I actually do have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.
Could it be simply me or does it seem like some of these comments look like they are written by brain dead individuals?
:-P And, if you are writing on other social sites, I would like to keep up with anything fresh you have to post.
Would you list all of all your communal pages like your linkedin profile, Facebook page
or twitter feed?
my web-site: http://rioradar.com/groups/for-a-great-trip-here-are-some-ideas
Excellent post. I was checking constantly this blog and I am
ReplyDeleteimpressed! Extremely useful information specifically the last
part :) I care for such info much. I was seeking this particular information for a long time.
Thank you and best of luck.
My website; workouts to improve vertical
I'd like to thank you for the efforts you've put in
ReplyDeletepenning this website. I am hoping to see the same
high-grade content from you in the future as well. In truth, your creative writing abilities has inspired me to
get my own, personal site now ;)
my web site ... exercises to increase vertical jump
Pretty! This has been a really wonderful post.
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for providing this info.
Visit my blog ... agrawalpariwar.com
I'm really impressed with your writing skills as well as with the layout on your blog. Is this a paid theme or did you modify it yourself? Either way keep up the nice quality writing, it is rare to see a nice blog like this one today.
ReplyDeleteAlso visit my weblog ... workouts to increase vertical jump
Hi! Do you know if they make any plugins to help with SEO?
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to get my blog to rank for some targeted keywords but I'm not seeing very good success.
If you know of any please share. Thanks!
Here is my blog post ultranect.ultrawebexpert.com