I cannot help but notice that a number of people commenting here lately subscribe to the doctrine of predestination. Don’t get me wrong, some of my best friends are Calvinists, but there do seem to be more than an average number here. Mind, there are Calvinists and Calvinists. I have noticed that the further north they come from, the stricter they tend to be about condemning others to perdition. It is to be hoped that those commenting on here have been living in the south long enough to soften their views on matters such as unconditional election and reprobation!
If this trend continues, I might have to start a recruiting drive for Arminians, but I am hoping that matters will not reach this point. Can any non-Calvinists on here now declare themselves? I have an idea that C is a Christian, but we know nothing yet of her theological stance. She seems a reasonable and enlightened woman and I have great hopes that she will turn out to be a Universalist of some sort.
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Which comments in particular have you thinking that your correspondents are Calvinists? Perhaps we could all start guessing people's political affiliations as well?
ReplyDeleteWell, Simon knows full well that I belong in the Calvinist camp, but as I live less than 20 miles from the south coast, presumably he isn't expecting me to condemn him to perdition just yet.....
ReplyDeleteJust what this has to do with home education however........
'Which comments in particular have you thinking that your correspondents are Calvinists? Perhaps we could all start guessing people's political affiliations as well?'
ReplyDeleteAn odd question from a member of the United Reformed Church! Both the Congregationalists and the Presbytarians are red-hot on reprobation. A far as political affiliation goes; that's no secret. I am a conservative. I am not about to out any other Calvinists, but I know of at least two more who comment here apart from you and your daughter.
Simon.
'Just what this has to do with home education however........ '
ReplyDeleteWhy Julie, I had quite forgotten that you were also a Calvinist! As to what this has to do with home education, nothing really. It is just that after Tania accused me of being soft on Christians and more apt to aplogise to them, I started ticking off the Christians here and wondering idly about their theological leanings. It struck me that those I knew of here tended in a certain direction and I was thinking about the possible significance of this.
Simon.
Simon wrote:
ReplyDeleteAn odd question from a member of the United Reformed Church! Both the Congregationalists and the Presbytarians are red-hot on reprobation.
Hmm. A rather sweeping generalisation, don't you think? I speak as one who grew up in the Church of Scotland (a presbyterian church), has been part of churches affiliated to the Baptist Association, is now in leadership in a URC and has just checked which camping village we are in at New Wine (an evangelical CoE conference)! I hope that I am not as pigeon-holeable as you might think.
In my experience, the denomination of church one attends does not necessarily say much about one's theology. For example, there are CoE churches that are almost 'high' enough to be in Rome and others that are 'charismatic' (assuming that you think those positions are mutually exclusive). I would hesitate to speculate on your position, knowing only that you are CoE.
Have I ever given the impression that I was consigning anyone to perdition? If so, I must seek forgiveness for the heinous sin of pride - a sin that often causes much more damage, IMHO, than some of the more obvious ones.
'Have I ever given the impression that I was consigning anyone to perdition? If so, I must seek forgiveness for the heinous sin of pride'
ReplyDeleteThe URC certainly has its roots in Calvinist theology. As for consigning others to perdition being a symptom of pride, I'm not so sure. I seem to recollect hearing that according to John Knox, one of the greatest pleasures that the saved would enjoy in paradise would be to look down at those in hell and feel satisfaction in their suffering. Don't tell me that the United Reformed Church does not subscribe to this? It surely cannot be classed as pride to be aware that you are saved and that others are damned and to feel satisfaction that you made the right choice in this world.
Simon.
Simon wrote I have an idea that C is a Christian, but we know nothing yet of her theological stance. She seems a reasonable and enlightened woman and I have great hopes that she will turn out to be a Universalist of some sort.
ReplyDeleteI did chuckle at this bit as I dont feel all that enlightened. Yes I am Christian. Until a short while ago I was uncomfortable with this label and preferred to simply state that I believed in God and adhered to Bible teachings. I still dont consider myself a particular denomination but do attend a lovely CofE church at the present time, having attended a range of other churches and been put off by the hypocrisy (which was more to do with the churches than the denominations, I hasten to add).
I am fairly liberal I guess you could say and am a strong believer in trying not to judge people, giving them the benefit of the doubt, being fair if I can and trying to see others point of view. Also I try to be as forgiving and understanding as possible. Not sure what that makes me so label as you consider appropriate.
Blimey, am I the only atheist in the house?
ReplyDeleteIn many areas, theology and the understanding of Biblical revelation has moved on somewhat since the days of John Knox. For example, the URC ordains women, which is not a notion handed down from John Knox.
ReplyDeleteFeeling satisfaction in the suffering of others is not part of my understanding of God. My view would be one of corporate election - God has promised to save the church and individual humans can choose whether to make themselves part of that body. That was the basis on which I did not baptise my infants, preferring instead to educate them to a point where they would be able to make the decision themselves.
The URC is a broad church with many strains of belief and practice. It encourages its members to wrestle with the Word and seek God's will for their own lives and the corporate life of the local congregation. This means that local congregations can be very different.
Don't worry, Allie. I'm sure this religious discussion will die down soon and Simon will resume his normal service of sniping at people's educational positions. For the moment, you can enjoy not being one of those at whom he is aiming. :-)
ReplyDeleteAllie said:
ReplyDelete"Blimey, am I the only atheist in the house?"
Nope, there is at least two of us!
It's all very interesting, Shena. I am, after all, the atheist who managed to win the Scripture Cup at school ;-)
ReplyDeleteIt all depends upon how sincere you are about your faith.
ReplyDeleteI just find quite odd that someone greatly experienced in home education and religion would post a link to a seminar or conference organised by a church/ministry that has a dubious reputation. A brief internet search revealed a connection to a family quite high up in that ministry that advocates child cruelty.
They have made millions from their child rearing philosophy and the ministry sells their literature at conferences.
Many other churches and ministries and the media made a universal condemnation regarding their books and promotion of such an abusive philosophy.
The seminar would have also promoted TEACH and ACE.
The guy who formulated and created ACE and TEACH has been widely reported to have been an adulterer.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI just find quite odd that someone greatly experienced in home education and religion would post a link to a seminar or conference organised by a church/ministry that has a dubious reputation. A brief internet search revealed a connection to a family quite high up in that ministry that advocates child cruelty.
If you can reveal your search criteria, I'll read and consider it. I don't know what you mean by a family quite high up in that ministry. I posted the link because I know that there are some people who use ACE and who might be interested. I have registered to attend the session because I would like to hear first hand what HSLDA is preaching.
Another blatant cop out by the chair of EO.
ReplyDeleteI find it really hard to believe that the Chair of EO is incapable of making an internet search, particularly when she's got her name all over the net as working as a trainer in the IT industry for 10 years.
ReplyDelete'I posted the link because I know that
ReplyDeletethere are some people who use ACE and who might be interested'
This is an extract from the ACE High School package.
'Although apartheid appears to allow the unfair treatment of blacks, the system has worked well in South Africa....Although white businessmen and developers are guilty of some unfair treatment of blacks, they turned South Africa into a modern industrialised nation, which the poor uneducated blacks couldn't have acomplished in several more decades. If more blacks were suddenly given control of the nation, it's economy and business, as Mandela wished, they could have destroyed what they had waited and worked so hard for.'
Oh Wow!! That is something I hadn't seen and am pretty shocked at reading that.
ReplyDeleteYou know this is turning into another weird set of conversations - I read Shena's original post about seeing the TEACH seminar flyer etc elsewhere (ie on another list) and understood it completely differently - the point of interest not being the fact that it was a TEACH seminar,- which I think happen fairly frequently, but that HSDLA were speaking at it. Now many UK home educators have issues with HSDLA - either because it is American, or because it is run by Christians, or because they feel that its attempts to get involved in European cases have done more harm than good. I thought it was this aspect of the meeting which was the main interest, rather than what TEACH itself stood for or does???
ReplyDeleteNothing weird about it...it's all to do with child cruelty and endorsing seminars.
ReplyDeleteThe Christian Fundementalist politics associated with HE, TEACH and ACE are all related to that child cruelty .
ReplyDeleteThe ACE curriculum has also stated 'God's values are those of right wing politics.The further left a person moves on the political spectrum, the further they move from God's absolutes.'
ReplyDeleteAnd...ACE came out with this gem.
ReplyDelete'The substance of truth, ideals and absolutes is on the right.'
"Nothing weird about it...it's all to do with child cruelty and endorsing seminars."
ReplyDeleteMaybe the email I saw was different to the one you saw, but I certainly did not get the impression that Shena was endorsing the seminar. I read it as a heads up for those who are likely to oppose HSDLA. As far as I know there are no supporters of HSDLA and many opposers on the email list in question and Shena knows the list well.
Someone said ( and can't you adopt some code so we know who is who!) "Nothing weird about it...it's all to do with child cruelty and endorsing seminars."
ReplyDeleteYes, this is "weird" or perhaps that is the wrong word..... the point I am trying to make is that I am pretty sure ( as is anon directly above) that Shena's post about TEACH was motivated by raising interest in the HSDLA aspect, not the TEACH aspect. Someone (although who knows who it was, due to all these anons) seems to think that Shena is someway being duplicitous by posting about TEACH and claiming she know nothing about it, but surely Shena too is trying to raise awareness of the HSDLA involvement in the UK??
Discussing the rights and wrongs of TEACH may have its own place, but wasn't the point originally being raised here!
Of course Shena is being duplicitous.
ReplyDeleteCalvinism....the root of Apartheid.
ReplyDelete"Of course Shena is being duplicitous."
ReplyDeleteYou have the reasoning skills of a 2 year old.
Here's the views of a homeschool mom, she doesn't like HSLDA.
ReplyDeleteA whole lot of what she says reminds me of EO.
www.nataliesnexus.blogspot.com/2011/04why-i-do-not-support-hslda.html
Ever heard of the Dominionists?
ReplyDeleteYou might want to look them up.
The founder of HSDLA, Michael Farris is one and Home Ed in the UK is their current target.
"Ever heard of the Dominionists?
ReplyDeleteYou might want to look them up.
The founder of HSDLA, Michael Farris is one and Home Ed in the UK is their current target."
Are you the same anonymous who slagged Shena off? If so, you must be a bit slow because Shena is on the same side of this issue as you. She sent the email to people she knows are against HSDLA involvement in the UK. Do you want to put people off sending 'heads up' emails like this?
As Julie and Anon (above) say, I am particularly interested in the speaker being associated with HSLDA.
ReplyDeleteI do not see myself as a gatekeeper. As I have been keen to ensure that my children have had autonomy growing up, why would I be expected to censor information about an event such as this? I passed on the information to home-educating adults and would expect each individual to consider whether they were interested in such an event and to attend if they wanted. The event may not say much about HSLDA, although the speaker is part of that organisation.
I will go from it to HESFes (so if anyone reading here wishes to buttonhole me there, I'll be happy to oblige) and then to New Wine (a Christian camping conference). Sometimes at HESFes, I will "wear an EO hat"; at New Wine, it is unlikely to come up. Similarly, my doctrinal beliefs are less likely to be an issue at HESFes. That does not make me "duplicitous", merely someone who tries to play an appropriate part in the groups in which I participate.
In the interests of full disclosure, when I registered for the event, I told TEACH which church I belong to and that I am an EO trustee. On neither count have I been asked not to attend or to complete a strenuous application form.
Ah...but EO have behaved/behave just like HSDLA.
ReplyDelete'Religious education is not included here as a subject either. This is an entirely personal area which each family will want to approach in it's own way. However, for those who want to give a historical perspective, the myths and legends(see history)would be a good starting point.'
ReplyDeleteEarly Years
Learning at home for the under 12s
5th Edition
Education Otherwise, October 1991
Are the last two comments from the same Anonymous? If so, is the one at 9:18 intended to illustrate the one at 9:05? If so, I do not understand the connection you see between the posts. I'd be interested for the 9:05 poster to explain what they mean (with rough dates, please, given that EO has existed for almost 40 years).
ReplyDeleteBTW, you do not have to give away your real identity to make posts identifiable. You could sign off with a pseudonym.
You need dates and an explanation, whatever for?
ReplyDeleteEO issued a statement of apology not so long ago.
I was asking for an explanation of how "EO have behaved/behave just like HSDLA". I do not know to what you are referring.
ReplyDeleteOf course you do.
ReplyDeleteAnon "Of course you do."
ReplyDeletewell, I don't - could you enlighten the rest of us??
As I said - EO has a 40-year history. I have been a member for less than 20 years and a trustee for less than a year. I am aware of some problems in EO's history. However, I do not know who you are and I am not telepathic so I do not know what is in your mind.
ReplyDeleteHSLDA is a "nonprofit advocacy organization established to defend and advance the [US] constitutional right of parents to direct the education of their children" with 50 staff members. It has attempted to get involved in legal arguments in some European countries.
EO is a UK charity with no paid staff that aims to support home-educating families.
I fail to see the comparison.
'I am aware of some problems in EO's history.'
ReplyDelete'Problems'.. such as actively working against non EO home education groups?
Remind us again about that apology...
ReplyDeleteYou know, I am still confused by all this? I know that EO haven't been madly popular for a variety of reasons, eg confused and inaccurate info about, for example, law in Scotland in the past, allegations about past Trustees, over heavy moderation/banning of dissident voices; but what are we referring to here? -and is this linked to current EO management or the old team ( since most/all of the current lot are now different??) Oh for some direct answers!!
ReplyDeleteThose are some examples...
ReplyDeleteI think you'll find that the new lot are still as bad as the old lot, particularly when you consider that the new chair has been a member of EO for 20 years.
Someone said "new lot are still as bad as the old lot"
ReplyDeletebut in what way - what are you accusing them of doing ??
"I think you'll find that the new lot are still as bad as the old lot, particularly when you consider that the new chair has been a member of EO for 20 years."
ReplyDeleteSo all members of EO agreed with the actions of the Trustees and are exactly the same as them? Strange idea. Have you ever been a member? Do you have any friends who have been members or have you disowned anyone you know who has been a member because they are tainted?
I have been a member for precisely 17.5 years. Not, however, one that knew much about how it was run centrally until some things started to get out of hand and I challenged certain practices. The reason I am chair* now is because a group of people (including me) who had been complaining about things for a couple of years decided to stand as trustees in November last year. The June N/L is going out (on paper) this week with a letter to members. Amongst other things, "the new lot" have:
ReplyDelete- filed the accounts for 2009-10 on time
- changed the fee structure, reducing costs to members
- drastically cut EO's expenditure.
We are working extremely hard to return to a supportive grassroots organistation. If you have any supportable accusation or a complaint, I'd be more than happy to receive it at sdeuchars@educationotherwise.org
Shena
*BTW, I'd hate anyone to get the impression that that title comes with anything other than grief. I'm using it because EO, if it is to recover, needs people who take responsibility and put their name to things.
Julie said...
ReplyDeleteI know that EO haven't been madly popular for a variety of reasons, eg confused and inaccurate info about, for example, law in Scotland in the past, allegations about past Trustees, over heavy moderation/banning of dissident voices; but what are we referring to here?
I'd like to know this too. I was one of those who fell foul of the heavy moderation and was removed from my post as Wilts LC for asking awkward questions. One of the first things we did was to remove the moderation of people's comments on the forum and the email list. In fact, we kept the email list open in the face of a closure announcement.
I have heard and read both sides of the Scotland issue. I do not know enough about it to comment. I am extremely unhappy about the distress and division that has led from it but I cannot change the past.
I have gone on record in a number of places as saying that certain things have been done badly in the past. I may even say it again in the future. If anyone wants to criticise what I am doing, then you are free to do so. It would be easier to address if you were prepared to say who you are.
BTW, what I am posting here is my personal comments. I have not discussed them with other trustees and do not represent them as EO's official view.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the hard work, Shena, and the other trustees too. I used to be a long term member but lost heart and didn't renew a few years back, but I recently rejoined as result of the changes you are all making. Keep up the good work!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Thanks for all the hard work, Shena, and the other trustees too. I used to be a long term member but lost heart and didn't renew a few years back, but I recently rejoined as result of the changes you are all making. Keep up the good work!"
Yes, Thank you Shena. I left for a while but have recently renewed my membership this year following all the changes the trustees have made to EO. I am very excited to see the improvements. Long may the improvements continue.
How many black or Asian people are trustees?
ReplyDeleteAt the moment, none. And very few men or people under 40. However, this is not because there is a hidden prejudice against them (which I presume is your implication).
ReplyDeleteThe next AGM will, I hope, be held in the autumn. Any signed-up member can stand as a trustee at that meeting. Five of the existing trustees will stand down by rotation at that meeting.
There haven't been any black or Asian people acting as trustees in the 40 year history of EO.
ReplyDeleteDoes EO still have equal opportunities and anti bullying policies?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThere haven't been any black or Asian people acting as trustees in the 40 year history of EO.
That's not true. We have had one black person as a trustee that I know of. There may have been others. How can one tell, when mostly they are simply names on a paper document or an email? There have certainly been people with non-indigenous names as volunteers (possibly trustees, but I don't know).
[The same or another] Anonymous said...
Does EO still have equal opportunities and anti bullying policies?
Those policies were created some time ago. They have not been rescinded (I can't quite imagine a meeting at which such a thing could be proposed or accepted). In any case, I would suggest (as many find with schools) that the culture of an organisation is more important than having written policies.
I'm please to see people with such concern for and interest in the way EO runs. I'd be very happy to discuss with you the possibility of you becoming a volunteer - even a trustee. Please ring me on 08445 86754 or email sdeuchars@educationotherwise.org and I'll ring you.
I have no intention of working with EO.
ReplyDeleteSo...do you insist on CRB checks for volunteers, before they come into contact with children?
What is your recruitment proceedure?
ReplyDeleteAlmost no EO postholders have direct dealings with children in the process of carrying out their duties in EO. However, we obtain a CRB check on all trustees (not until they are in post, as they are elected).
ReplyDeleteWe have also chosen to CRB-check the person moderating the children's forum, who communicates directly with children in the line of duty.
LCs and helpline volunteers do not have a CRB check - they deal with parents and usually only on the phone.
And yet some LCs run local meetings and interact with children.
ReplyDelete"And yet some LCs run local meetings and interact with children."
ReplyDeleteAt all the meetings I've attended the parents are always there with their children and responsible for them. Do you get the parents of your children's friends CRB checked before you take your children round to play? What about when they go to their friends home without you?
Anon 08:12...it appears that you confuse personal relationships with support group meetings.
ReplyDelete