The conversations which I have had with other people about my daughter's education, although often lively and spirited, have in the main been good natured. Amicable relations have continued, even with those who bitterly oppose my lifestyle and educational methods. The same is true of all my email exchanges and telephone conversations about education. This is as it should be. I am always happy to debate robustly my beliefs about education and indeed almost any aspect of my life. The only group of people who seem consistently unable to behave like rational human beings when it comes to discussing education are certain autonomous educators. I have never known an advocate of synthetic phonics grow angry or abusive because I prefer to use Look and Say. Certainly, none of them have made offensive remarks about my family or relationship with my daughter or launched internet campaigns to smear me! I cannot help but wonder why this should be. Let me give an example of the sort of thing I mean.
In June, I said something which Maire Stafford, who else, objected to on the EO list. She posted as follows;
"You sound like a /%&*^"
Well, it's not the wittiest thing I've ever heard, but I responded good humouredly;
"Sorry Maire, I'm not sure what an /%&*^ is. Could you be a little more specific?"
Imagine my surprise when I received the following message as a personal email;
From: maetuga
"I think she meant to say "authoritarian motherfucker son of a bitch asshole." Just a guess, though."
Now I can assure readers that I have never had an email like that from an enthusiast for synthetic phonics or Real Books! Only an autonomous educator could have sent such a message. This is not, by the way, an isolated example.
I am not suggesting of course that all autonomous educators are as vulgar and abusive as that. What I am saying is that any sort of abuse, personal attack, lies and innuendo always comes from autonomous educators and nobody else. I find this a little strange. Why should it be that not a single person who disapproves of home education should be violently rude to me about my decision to home educate and yet many autonomous home educators become furious when I disagree with their methods? Why is it that I can have a good natured exchange of emails with somebody who believes strongly that synthetic phonics are the only effective way of teaching reading and that I am a complete idiot for championing Look and Say, but when I express doubts about the autonomous acquisition of literacy, the abuse is sure to start?
I am honestly puzzled about this. I am quite used to disagreeing with many different people about education. These include teachers, local authority officers, psychologists, academics, even Graham Badman. All these disagreements have been very pleasantly expressed and at the end of the discussion I have invariably parted on good terms with the person concerned. With autonomous educators, this never happens. Almost invariably, they become rude and personal. I don't think it can just be me, because otherwise I would be on bad terms with all those other people with whom I disagree about education. I am also far from being the only person to experience this sort of thing when dealing with autonomous educators. Perhaps this is destined to remain a mystery!
Blimey, Simon. Is it really a mystery to you?{LOL}
ReplyDeleteOkay, I am NOT an AE'er but I can quite understand why people get so angry at your stance on AE.
Firstly, you don't listen to what they say to you. You can have someone like Merri explain how it works, in the comments section of a newspaper, and then, weeks later, you start a blog and say you don't know how it can work. So then Sharon explains how it works and your opinion doesn't seem to shift in the light of the explanations you've had. That can be very frustrating to people.
Secondly, AE seems to be a lifestyle. It's a way of living to the people who do it. So, when you criticise AE you are, in effect, critising more than an educational theory. You are criticising their LIVES!
I think you must be being disingenuous when you claim not to understand the ferocity of feelings about AE compared to Synthetic Phonics.
BTW I hold v strong beliefs about THAT.{g} And would sometimes WEEP for the children who turned up at my secondary school unable to read because of their primary school's adherence to Look and Say or Whole Books approach or something. But never fear, I was able to teach them all to read in the end. Using phonics:-)
Back to AE'ers' ferocious responses. Most of us would be hard pressed to avoid swearing when someone criticises our lives and the theoretical basis for the way we live. I tend to get very upset when people attack Christianity, for eg. Most of the time I stop just short of swearing at them. (I'm a recent convert, so swearing is still my first impulse.) So, I don't find it hard to understand why people swear at you. I wish they wouldn't, mind.
Mrs Anon
I still find it puzzling. I have been a regular church goer for many years and yet feel no particular anger if somebody is silly about Christianity. Home education has been a way of life for me for over fifteen years, I don't get upset if somebody tells me that it is bad lifestyle for my child. Why should I? The point I am making is that I can debate and criticise other people's lifestyles without their reacting in this way. It is only autonomous educators who go mad about it. I just wonder why? I am aware that I can be an irritating and abrasive person. However, this does not stop me getting on well generally with other people in various lifestyles. It is only autonomous educators who seem to send me obscene emails and organise campaigns to denounce my views. I just find it a little odd.
ReplyDeleteI think some people are genuinely afraid of the future - their reading of Badman leads them to believe that their way of life is under threat. There is also a lot of hype around which does over dramatise the consequences - new legislation may well be a nuisance but I find it hard to believe that the overall consequence may do untold harm to thousands...the reality is that it will be a minor irritation to most -but it may have a few more catastrophic consequences to a few. But I suppose that perhaps all these AEers do invisage that they will be in the the "few" and herded back to school as a result.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion their fear doesn't excuse the appalling behaviour of a few of your outspoken crics. All home educators would be better served if we stuck to fighting the right battles; in the end I don't suppose anything you have said in the past or will say in the future will actually influence either the Select Comm or the govt. IF this legislation fails it will probably be for political timing reasons (ie general election) or because it is seen to be too much bother with the threat of an election looming. However in the meantime all home educators would do better to try and at least present a sembalnce of unity - if people aren't hurling insults at you, it is at EO, or Ian Dowty or some other (inside) target...
...and then we could all spend more time actually home educating our children......so I will get off this computer and harrass my daughter about algebra..
Damn. I wrote an eloquent reply and this machine has eaten it! I will redo when I get a chance!
ReplyDeleteJulie: I think you are spot on that many (most?) autonomous education practitioners feel that this legislation is targetted at them and that their children will be the first to be pushed into school. Whether they are right or not doesn't really matter. They are scared for their children and I find it understandable (if not particularly 'evolved') that they lash out. You must understand that many of these people have seen their children abused, or at least made desperately unhappy, by state schooling. I know of at least one whose child attempted suicide rather than go back to being bullied in a school whose head teacher denied that she had a problem with bullying and it was the child's own fault for being over sensitive. Another had a diabetic child too young to inject themselves and the school refused to administer the injections, several times allowing him to go into hypo. These people have been seriously failed by the "system". To compare it with debate over phonics versus look-and-say is to trivialise their feelings somewhat. I think Simon that the fact that you cannot seem to understand this is part of the reason you inspire such a reaction. You are discussing a method of learning. They are discussing a life change which they feel saved their kid's life.
I don't think there is ever a need to resort to abuse, but I understand it, especially from those who cannot express themselves in a more literate manner. I agree with Julie though that it is incredibly unhelpful and am frustrated, nay annoyed by it.
I agree, Julie. Hurling insults is not constructive. But I can understand why it happens. Look at Simon's article on the Fraser Institute. It's OK, as far as it goes, but in the comments several people, including me, referred to proper research (not just reports of research, like the Fraser Institute document) which strongly indicates that increased regulation of HE does not improve academic outcomes among HE young people who choose to go to college. Simon's answer to this was to dismiss these studies because they do not prove something else entirely. This is what he does. If he is challenged, he moves the goalposts, or ignores the challenge completely. This is what he did to the autonomous HErs on the lists who went to a lot of trouble to give him personal case histories and evidence of the success of AE. And he is not above using the personal information he was given in good faith to try and discredit his opponents. Is it surprising that they feel justified in using personal information that he has given them (for example, the fact that he assumes false identities for financial gain) to try and discredit him?
ReplyDeleteAutonomous home educators are very frightened at the moment, with very good reason. Their whole way of life is under threat. If Simon insists on adding fuel to the fire by playing nasty cat and mouse games with them, he must expect them to retaliate.
Simon, here's an idea. Could you, perhaps, write a few blog posts that are positive in tone? You could tell us all more about how you home educated your daughter, how it worked for you or offer some tips to people following a structured path? You may find that if you spend a little less time explaining how other people are mistaken or deficient, you will attract less ill feeling.
ReplyDeleteSimon, I was always told that people who resort to profanity display a lack of vocabulary and intelligence.I think the case above proves this hypothesis. Enough said.
ReplyDeleteNo Mary. I was quite intelligent and had a reasonably wide (broad, extensive, considerable, liberal) vocabulary when I used to swear profusely.
ReplyDeleteIt's just that there's something very satisfying about pronouncing those Anglo-Saxon words.{g}
I've almost conquered my impulse to swear now. I'm down to Blimey and shh.....sugar.
It's not always down to not actually knowing enough words to say. LOL!
Mrs Anon
Mary,
ReplyDeleteThe idea that swearing indicates a lack of intelligence is used exclusively by people who disapprove of swearing. I have seen nothing in my reading of your posts on this site to indicate any intelligence from you and yet you do not swear. You may well be a random moral aphorism generator as far as I know, sent to plague is with a complete lack of humour and insight. Simon articulates himself quite intelligently though he manages to upset people without swearing. Suffice it to say that you (or your alien programmers) can rest assured that intelligent people swear just as much as idiots.
I can see more of a case for saying that those who swear have a larger vocabulary available to them. Do you want to hear how many scatalogical terms I know? (I am of course joking - I resist the temptation to swear in situations like this because it is polite to do so in certain company).
Thank you Mouse for that post I agree with everything you have expressed and would like to add that I think the main reason I personally am angry with Simon is not for his worldview but the fact that he can see no problem with wishing to foist that worldview upon the everyone else.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it any idiot can coerce people. You will do it my way because I am from the government/council/social services or because I am a police officer/parent/doctor/government advisor/teacher/God and if you don't I will smack you/put you on the naughty step/put you in detention/arrest you/take away your children/get a court order or the ultimate one - send you to hell.
The real challenge that we humans face is not how to be more effective at coercing each other but how to live together in ways that fully honour and cherish the humanity, will, hopes, dreams and preferences of others. This is what autonomous educators do, we work with our children, recognising that their preferences are as valid as ours and finding ways to co-exist that don't erase anyone. We know that children don't always make good choices but we don't see that as being evidence of original corruption, we don't see their natures as sullied and dangerous, we see them as beautiful souls who lack wisdom and experience and we see it as our responsibilty to impart the benefit of ours to them. And our children, because they are in a relationship with us that is based on mutual respect, not power, trust us, listen to our advice and ask for it. It takes bloody hard work to parent and/or educate autonomously. It takes REAL engagement. It's not just a case of letting them get on with it and it's not the easy option of "do as I say", it's the hard option. But we choose it because we believe there has to be a better way of living together, of organising ourselves than merely the exercise of power.
Then Badman and his supporting act, Webb, came along and said we will coerce you to coerce your children. Under threat of force you may no longer parent and educate according to the promptings of your own soul. You will be other than who you are because we who are more powerful say so.
That you have to ask why this angers people Simon beggars belief really.
Joely
I've recovered the 'eaten' comment I was going to make this morning:
ReplyDeleteI think the difference between this and critics of Christianity that you have come across is that the latter probably do not seek out any Christian forums you belong to and repeatedly bring up their
issues with Christianity, apparently never taking in any of the counter arguments. They probably don't then go and have anti-Christian polemic published in national newspapers. And they almost certainly don't then announce their support for government proposals which you feel would make it impossible to practice Christianity.
Your experience here is obviously a bit limited though. I have been in the midst of several minority groups in my time and I assure you that
every such group has an element who react to dogmatic opposition to their point of view, especially from someone who says they are 'on the
same side' as them, in a more extreme and (IMHO) undignified way. I was 'outed' as a heretic in the early Green movement for daring to suggest that industries should be talked to sensibly about their environmental impact. I was accused of being a corporate spy and in their pay and all sorts of nonsense. In the end I shrugged and left them to it.
CND, which I flirted with as an impressionable teen, is another example of a group of generally sensible, inteligent people who have a small proportion of excitable members who express their views more ... erm ... forcefully.
And if you have ever lived in a small, parochial community as I did, you will know the vocal disapproval and even hatred that painting your
house the "wrong" colour or not keeping your garden up to the "correct" standard will invoke.
Ah, Mary speaks again in a fawning voice to Simon, hanging on to his every word!
ReplyDeleteI am not an AE. We are more structured BUT I do disagree with how Simon imposes his complete lack of understanding of AE, his obvious loathing of all AE stands for on other HEs. Every one is entitled to have their own personal opinions but they should not be shoved into other peoples faces at every opportunity. Simon finds it hard to understand why he is detested so much by other HEs - I say other HEs not just AE's either Simon! -but from my point no one HE is better than an other and he gives the impression he is better than other HEs; that other HEs are just playing at home ed. He should NOT be sniping at other HEs, he should NOT be criticizing how they choose to go about HEing their child.
The advantage of HE is the individuality and flexibility of it. What suits one child does not necessarily suit the next and this should be accepted. The priority is the CHILD.
Joely said: "That you have to ask why this angers people Simon beggars belief really."
ReplyDeleteIf it really isn't put on, this bewilderment, I suspect a mild form of Aspergers.
"I think she meant to say "authoritarian motherfucker son of a bitch asshole." Just a guess, though."
ReplyDeleteSo you think this acceptable language to use?
HES - you think that's fawning? Or is it because you just disagree with me?
ReplyDeleteMary, you yourself haven't said anything intelligent to agree or disagree with.
ReplyDeleteMary said "so you think this is acceptable language to use?"
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't. I think in the context it is impolite, boorish and unhelpful. But that's not what you said. You said that swearing indicates lack of intelligence. I pointed out that someone can come across as unintelligent without resorting to swearing. I also said, in response to Simon's general bewilderment at his reception from some home educators, that I find it understandable.
Mary, if you had removed your child from an abusive situation which may have ended their life, and then had someone repeatedly in your face saying that a system should be set up to return your child to that situation (which, rightly or wrongly is how autonomous educators feel) would you not get angry? Frustrated? Scared? I'm not asking about the language used, just for you to show some simple human compassion and understanding.
Julie made a very good point earlier that Simon only seems to write about what is wrong with unstructured learning, and that it would be nice, and less antagonistic, to write on a positive note about his experiences of structured home education.
ReplyDeleteI think that is a great idea.
Apologies, it was Allie who suggested this, not Julie.
ReplyDeleteI agree, that would be positive and helpful. I'd also like to hear some ideological and philosophical arguments for non-autonomous learning. Oh yeah and I'd like him to stop aligning himself with those that would use force against parents to stop them educating according to their own lights. That would help.
ReplyDeleteJoely
Well, have been out all day and have not been ignoring the comments. Mouse, I don't think that I suffer from Aspergers, I have an idea that my family would have noticed. This is not the sort of thing which can easily be diagnosed by reading email posts anyway, as I have no doubt you are aware.
ReplyDeleteAnony mouse, you say that after you directed me towards some research about home education in the USA, following the piece on the Fraser Institute paper, I moved the goalposts and changed the subject. I am sorry if I did this, it was not intentional. I thought that I was discussing the outcomes for children who had been home educated. I pointed out that the Fraser Institute paper made a number of elementary errors. You then directed me to a study which showed that home educated students starting college in America were at least as academically accomplished as those who has attended school. There seemed to be no correlation between their academic achievement and the level of regulation in the state where they grew up. All this is fair enough. The point that I made and which seemed relevant to me, is that without knowing the percentage of home educated children who go on to college and being able to compare it to the percentage of schooled children who go to college, we can say nothing useful about the efficacy of home education. For all we know, the proportion of home educated children going on to college is higher in the states where the regulation is stricter. I don't say that this is so; we simply don't know. This study told us something interesting about teenagers who apply for college; they tend to be very bright. It also told us that home educated children applying to college are no less bright than those who have been to school. The other crucial piece missing from the puzzle is that we do not know for how long these children had been home educated. In short, this is an interesting bit of research, but does not really cast any light upon the effect of regulation upon outcomes for home educated children in general, which was I thought the point which you were making, presumably apropos of the Badman report.
Allie, the reason that I don't think that it would be helpful for me to bang on about how I educated my daughter is that it would not tell us anything useful about home education. All it would tell us was that one child educated in a pretty structured way did OK. Other children educated autonomously also do OK. Anecdotal evidence about my daughter might be of interest to her grandparents, but will not enable us to draw any useful conclusions about which educational methods work best.
HES, I have noticed before that whenever somebody says that she agrees with me, somebody like you is always ready to sneer. By all means attack me as much as you like, but I can't see why you should be rude to Mary.
And my posts Simon?
ReplyDelete"will not enable us to draw any useful conclusions about which educational methods work best."
ReplyDeleteIs that the purpose of this blog then Simon, for you to decide which methods "work" best? Once you have decided will you and Mr Badman then be making them mandatory. Oh hang on, that's already happening.
Hasn't it occurred to you that no single method will "work" best for every single child, because every child is different. Isn't that exactly why schools fail so spectacularly because of the one size fits all approach?
And I'd love to know what criteria you propose should be used to assess whether a method has "worked". What if your criteria are different to those of the parent or child concerned? Are your criteria the only ones that matter?
For heaven's sake, I'm glad your daughter did OK, by whatever criteria you measure it, but will you just get down off your high horse and stop believing you have discovered some winning formula that now needs to be forcefully administered to the rest of us.
Unless you have real evidence that fully engaged autonomous ed and parenting is actually harming children then you have no justification for interfering in what is actually a private matter between parents and their children.
The 2007 DCSF guidelines do not prescribe the form and content for home education precisely because it is NOT actually these things that make the difference. The real deal is parental engagement and this is what the guidelines grasp for in the list of indicators of suitable education. If you want to make a positive contribution to home education you could do a lot worse than start lobbying the DCSF to ensure that the 2007 guidelines are fully and properly used and applied by local authorities.
Well, I'm not at all sure what to say, Joely. I have no wish at all to coerce you into coercing your children. Nor do I wish to use the threat of force to make you parent in any particular fashion. You say that children's preferences are as valid as ours, but I can't quite agree with you there. If a small child shows a preference to drink from a bottle of bleach because she is attracted by the gaily coloured bottle, most parents would remove it from her, by force if necessary. If I had a three year old child who showed a preference for running into the road when cars were about, I would not really view that preference as just as valid as my own preference that she should walk safely on the pavement. I would stop her running into the road, if I had to by the use of force; grabbing her arm to keep her from putting herself at hazard.
ReplyDeleteI had replied to your last post, but see you have just posted again. There is no perfect method of education. what works well with one child may very well not work with another. I think that goes without saying. Some children will learn reading by the use of synthetic phonics, others will do so by Look and Say. In any educational system, there will be success and failure. I am not seeking a universal system of education; this quest is a fata morgana. The best we can hope for is what works best with most children. it is certainly important to establish that, because some methods are demonstrably better than others.
ReplyDeleteYou talk as if children are stupid Simon or as if they have a death wish. Maybe that is your experience but it isn't mine. My children want to keep themselves safe and they seek my help to do so, why wouldn't they? They are rational human beings. When I need information or help I turn to a trusted source and this is what my children do. The reason that so many non-autonomous parents like yourself have difficulty believing that this works is because by and large their only experience is of children whose critical functions are impaired by the power based relationship in which they find themselves. Children brought up on a diet of praise and punishment learn that only consequences to self matter and consequences to others do not. They cheat and lie to avoid artifically created consequences and people like you see this and assume it is inherent and not created.
ReplyDeleteI do not know of any engaged parent, autonomous or otherwise, who would not act as you describe in a truly life threatening situation. I cannot imagine why you think we wouldn't. Do you think autonomous educators are stupid?
You claim that you have no wish to coerce me into coercing my children, yet if Badman gets his way that is exactly the position I will be in. My children do not wish to see the LA inspector, they do not wish to show him their work which is private property and none of his business anyway and they do not wish to commit to a plan of studies for the forthcoming year. Tell me how I will be able to comply with Badman and not coerce my children?
Simon, you are bringing out the usual arguments against autonomous education which actually attack permissivness or simple neglect. Surely you have read Shirley and others' excellent explanations of what raising a child autonomously actually means? You cannot equate a 3 year old running into the road with, say, a 5 year old who wishes to add numbers instead of learning to read (as was the case with my own child), or who wants to paint, sculpt, draw, play instead of practicing letter formation? Children's preferences *are* equally valid for consideration and wherever practical for application. It is up to us to facilitate them responsibly, or if they are simply impossible to help the child understand why and to offer alternatives which they can select from (or help them move on to something different if that is what they want).
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, you are not responding to the comments referring to your own topic in this post - why are autonomous educators so angry. Though I'm sure you will rectify this shortly.
"The best we can hope for is what works best with most children"
ReplyDeleteNo no no. What on earth would be the point of home education if that were the case? Why on earth do you want to restrict people to one method when we have a whole cornucopia of methods to choose from. Children change over time, why on earth would you not want parents to be free to alter their approach accordingly?
The best we can hope for is surely that parents are fully engaged with their children and responsive to their needs as individuals. If this is in place then everything else will take care of itself.
Is there any reason to suspect that the vast majority of parents are not fully engaged in parenting and educating? No there is not. And for the small minority who aren't there are the 2007 guidelines and the school attendance procedure.
Joely
Mouse, you say that children's preferences are equally valid and it is up to us to "facilitate them responsibly". This is just a roundabout way of saying that we will examine their preferences, sift through them and allow them to go ahead with the ones which we feel are wise and good. Of course no parent, autonomous or otherwise, would allow their child to run in the road. That is precisely my point. But do not deceive yourself, grabbing a child by the arm is enforcing your will upon him by the use of violence.
ReplyDeleteSometimes autonomous parents present the case a on the one hand are authoritarian and coercive people who use the threat of force to bring their children into line. Against this they set the enlightened, loving p[arent who would not dream of using violence against her child. This is nonsense. All parents force their children to do things against their wishes. I have actually seen a toddler in the bathroom pick up a bottle of bleach. Children do not have the smae capacity as us to judge danger and make informed choices as to what is wholesome and good for them. It is up to us to teach them. I do not beleive any parent gives her child whatever he asks for, just as I doubt that any parent would allow her child to play with something noxious or dangerous. We all use coercion on our children.
HES - I'm not about to argue with you.
ReplyDeleteMouse - my comment was in relation to the language in Simon's email - I didn't make that explicit and I apologise for the lack of clarity on my part. I didn't offer any comment on an abusive situation where a child was at risk so please don't assume that I have no human compassion and understanding.
Your comparison, Mouse, between my case and that of somebody who goes onto a Christian website to bait them is ill thought out and inapt. The reason I went onto the HE-UK and EO lists was that following my appearance on a television programme a couple of years ago with Ann Newstead's partner, I became intrigued with the whole idea of autonomous education. I had of course heard of it before and had not thought it sounded very sensible. However, I thought it a good idea to be open minded and sign up to a couple of lists, just to see what it was all about. I listened for a month or two and a lot of what was being said struck me as odd. It was at that point that I began asking questions. The responses led me to suppose that I had been right in my initial assessment, but I tried to promote a dialogue about it. I might mention incidentally that in addition to obscene abuse, I also recived quite a few message offlist from people who said that they agreed with what I said but were afraid to express their views for fear of being flamed. This is, by the way, still happening.
ReplyDeleteSo no, I don't see your analogy as helpful. I also don't for a moment believe that the recommendations of the Badman Report are directed at all against any home educator, autonomous or otherwise. I regard this as untrue. They are designed to see whether parents really are providing an education and whether they have thought the matter through. If I felt for amoment that there was a threat to home education in this country, i would be the first to object. I have devoted enough of my life to it, after all.
As I said, many people have disapproved strongly of my lifestyle over the years but I have never been tempted to go to my MP and complain about them! Nor have I felt like writing them obscene emails. I have certainly never received any sort of trouble form those who disagree with my views on any other topic. I think that autonomous educators are a special case in this respect.
"This is just a roundabout way of saying that we will examine their preferences, sift through them and allow them to go ahead with the ones which we feel are wise and good."
ReplyDeleteNo Simon, it is not. It is a way of saying that we will fully engage with our children, listening to their preferences, expressing ours and work at finding a path that embodies all of them. It doesn't mean that we take the decision out of their hands - what could they possibly learn from that except that we're power crazy gits who are out to spoil their fun and aren't to be trusted.
Joely
Simon, I see, so you are only interested in working out (presumably by considering large scale research) which educational method 'works best'. Funny, you'd never guess from the tone of most of your posts on this blog, or the subjects for that matter.
ReplyDeleteI think you are being disingenuous. Isn't the truth that you like a good argument and enjoy posting things that will provoke a reaction?
This may be of interest;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dcsf.gov.uk/everychildmatters/ete/independentreviewofhomeeducation/irhomeeducation/
"I also don't for a moment believe that the recommendations of the Badman Report are directed at all against any home educator, autonomous or otherwise. I regard this as untrue."
ReplyDeleteYeh that reminds me a lot of the promise that the home office made that truancy patrols didn't apply to home educators. It doesn't stop home educated kids being abducted off the street and returned home and it doesn't stop home educators being threatened with arrest for not wanting to give their details to the nice LA officer. I didn't believe them then and I don't believe them or you now. Show me the bit that says parents will still be able to educate according to their vision of what education is, unmolested by the LA.
"They are designed to see whether parents really are providing an education and whether they have thought the matter through."
No, this is what the 2007 guidelines were all about.
Joely
"A central part of the Government's commitment for all children is that, no matter what their background or circumstances, they have the right to achieve the five Every Child Matters outcomes: be healthy; stay safe; enjoy and achieve; make a positive contribution; achieve economic well-being."
ReplyDeleteStatist claptrap.
Joely
SIMON SAID
ReplyDeleteI am not seeking a universal system of education; this quest is a fata morgana. The best we can hope for is what works best with most children. it is certainly important to establish that, because some methods are demonstrably better than others.
09 October 2009 07:23
This does not fall in with Government policy Simon. EVERY SINGLE CHILD NEEDS TAILORED EDUCATION TO THEIR OWN NEEDS.
NOT ONE SIZE FITS MOST as you seem to think.
Who's paying you to slander home educators?
You really don't follow the bible as much as you say you do, because if you did, you would know that what you are saying on here is not within the boundaries of someone who understands WHAT THEIR BIBLE IS GUIDING THEM IN.
NO Understanding.
NO shield you hold.
NO Truth.
NO Turn the other cheek
NO Compassion.
Try looking up and understanding.
Because those that JUDGE will BE JUDGED their selves.
You really come across as someone that attends church and with the next step walks into a pub!
You also come across as a troubled human being, with one thing in mind and that is to dictate your way through life. Controlling the only process you think you can hide behind, just to sway others that your methods are better then any one elses.
Sad really, Because there are many talented people out there that have better qualities. Many would shame your actions on provoking a select few in society.
I really do think that Home educators should stop visiting your pages to read these sad dialogues, after all, you can only keep talking to your self so long.
Sad really. But it takes all sorts in society to get the people talking.
You just carry on and argue with your self and hopefully I will have no need to revisit your blog again.
Please also remember, it would be so easy for legal action to pursue, if you kept up this slandering of a whole community in society.
Learn how to address your grievances with those you have them with. Privately. Try something new once in a while, it may help you over come your eagerness to feel you are in control.
TRY THE REMOTE CONTROL for a change. You can change one channel then another. BUT please leave the home education community alone.
MAX.
Well Max, I don't think that I have been arguing with myself. Perhaps with those who come on here a bit. I am not actually forcing home educators to come here though and as you say, those who find this a sad site would be well advised to stay away. You say that you hope you will have no need to visit this Blog again, but I wouldn't have thought that anybody actually needed to come here. I rather assumed that people come here because they enjoy it! Either that, or I am so mad that they are visiting hee the way that people used to visit Bedlam to laught at the inmates. A sobering thought indeed!
ReplyDeleteAllie, you are quite sharp! It is pefectly true that I enjoy debating and in our house there are usually debates raging all the time. Perhaps some of that atmosphere does rub off and give my posts a more combative tone than is necessary or desirable. However, I do believe in what i say. The problem is that i have reached that stage of my life where most of my passion has been spent and that tends to make my debating style sound a little sterile. Not that i don't beieve in what i say, more that I am cold and objective about it. This may well contrast sharply with the strong feelings that others evidently have.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course your daughter has passed compulsory education age so I imagine that helps you be more clinical about things - Badman's proposals won't affect you. The rest of us autonomous educators are fighting for the right to parent our own children according to our convictions and for their freedom not to have their education and outcomes dictated for them by self styled education gurus like Badman. So I guess there's going to be a wide gap in emotional tone.
ReplyDeleteOf course we home educators have something you and all the combined power and weight of govt ministers, departments, lackeys, quangos, think tanks, phoney independant experts and their like will never have: something worth fighting for.
Joely
"Your comparison, Mouse, between my case and that of somebody who goes onto a Christian website to bait them is ill thought out and inapt."
ReplyDeleteOK, care to tell me why? The background on why you became interested in autonomous education is interesting, but hardly has anything to do with my points.
Your receiving obscene messages is a Bad Thing - as I have repeatedly said, it is impolite and unhelpful. But whether you have experienced it or not, it does happen in other walks of life, especially 'counter cultural' ones. Inferring that it is peculiar to AE, that "any sort of abuse, personal attack, lies and innuendo always comes from autonomous educators and nobody else," is plain wrong. My wife belongs to a breast feeding forum, and exactly the same kind of flaming and nastiness happens on there, both from over-aggressive pro-BFers, and from the anti-BF side.
I didn't say that you should believe the Badman review was targetted against autonomous educators. I asked you to accept that many people believe that it is. This is called empathy - putting yourself into the shoes of others. Walking a mile in them. Again, I was responding to your post, expressing puzzlement at the anger expressed, both generally and personally at you.
Simon, I don't condone personal abuse or obscenity against you, me or anyone else. I prefer honest discussion, and the establishment of common ground wherever possible, empathy with the difficult situations others find themselves facing, and then moving on if neither side provides sufficient evidence to change the other's mind. I think you are silly to keep putting yourself in situations where you are being harrassed by people when it seems you gain no benefit from it.
Hmm, I wouldn't say Simon gets no benefit from it, it's just not the kind of gratification you or I would look for. Add the inability to empathise and there is a possible syndrome emerging, not an autistic one tho.
ReplyDeleteJoely
You know Mouse, I woulddn't want you to think that I was overly concerned about being called a motherfucker. I only put that up as an illustration of the sort of abuse that some autonomous educators hurl around. As I say, I knock about with many people who are strongly, one might almost say violently, opposed to home education and yet I cannot imagine any of them resorting to such tactics. Many of our friends are social workers and teachers and yet I have always managed to avoid any unpleasantness about home education.
ReplyDeleteYou are of course right, there are people who get het up about other things, as you say, breastfeeding. I didn't mean to suggest that autonomous educators are unique in this sort of behaviour. The reason that I did not think your analogy of somebody going onto a Christian website was a good one, was of course because I did not go onto the HE lists just to argue or deride; I genuinely wanted to understand. The very act of asking questions has in the past had the effect of making some people angry. If I am given an explanation which seems flawed to me, I always ask more questions. I do not intend to stop doing that. I am of course not on any of the lists any more and am really running this Blog as a way of musing out loud about home education. I am happy to debate with anybody, but of course if it makes people annoyed, there is a simple remedy for them.
Joely, hush a minute if you don't mind...
ReplyDeleteI want to know what Simon feels he gains from continued engagement, almost exclusively, over quite a long time, with a group of people he disagrees with.
Thanks Simon. Again, the analogy was meant to be of how you come across to others, not what your actual motives are. Never mind.
ReplyDeleteStill want to know what you get from it though!
It's probably a displacement activity, now that I have more time on my hands! I have noticed this with a number of home educating parents when once their children reach sixteen. I know of one who set up an HE list, there is of course Fiona Nicholson from Education Otherwise. I suppose that when a project like that has engaged all one's energy for so long, it would be hard to stop abruptly. But I also believe in what I am saying and am happy to say what i think. I have said before that when on the lists a number of people contacted me and said that they would like to disagree with some of the more gung ho autonomous educators but were nervous of the reaction. I have never felt like that.
ReplyDeleteDear Simon,
ReplyDeleteYou are so eloquent but not quite so eloquent as the person named maetuga. That person really knows how to use profanity to full effect! Your profanity parades as some sort of insincere slimey concern for the poor autonomously educated chiiildren but lets not make the mistake of thinking you really give a damn!
So what if people contact you whinging about how the nasty autonomous people attack them? It is not upto those people to shove their structure down anyones throats. That is what this boils down to. If they are moaning about autonomous education then they are not supportive of home education but only THEIR FORM of home education and they are in danger of becoming dictators like yourself. What is it to you how other people educate their children? If you are so bored why don't you go take up stamp collecting instead. Maybe Ed and Graham can join you next year?
Thanks for that Anonymous!
ReplyDeleteany time Simon!
ReplyDeleteIt's not really surprising that Simon thinks he has a monopoly on the truth, won't be moved from an illogical position no matter how much evidence comes his way and feels he has some kind of right to make us all do it his way. That seems to be standard operating procedure for some Christians.
ReplyDeleteI'm still waiting to hear Simon - Tell me how I will be able to comply with Badman and not coerce my children?
Joely
Well, we don't yet know what the provisions of any new legislation will be. When we know exactly what is being proposed, then we can talk about it. We have certainly all read the recommendations of the Badman Report, but how these will be framed into a new law is far from clear yet. I love the way that you throw in the gratuitous remark about Christianity! I'll warrant you wouldn't have made that sort of throw-away crack if I had a forign name and was a Muslim. Excellent, Joey.
ReplyDeleteMam'Goudig writes:
ReplyDeleteWow. I've been trying to find time to actually write something for this blog (too busy actually educating my child do sit and compose anything, I find). I've been teaching him to read recently, and we're both having a whale of a time.
The one thing that I have to agree with as far as Simon's comments are concerned is the attitude of many of those who educate autonomously. I gave up taking any active part in the HE lists some time ago, after it became obvious that there are (as has been noted) a small minority of incredibly vocal people on those lists, who seem to spend much of their time engaged in attacking anyone who doesn't conform to the AE approach.
There were also the posts calling for people to post and attack anyone who didn't agree with the vocal heavies (including the infamous Stafford posts - "anyone got the energy to slam 'em?"). I didn't care for such attitudes or behaviour, so stopped reading regularly, and rarely post. It's been noted (by several people and quite independently, as far as I can tell) that the HE lists are not as supportive as they should be.
I don't agree with everything that Simon posts, but I do think that some people out there are just posting to pick fights. I logged into my yahoo account earlier to retrieve some non-HE stuff. I was intrigued to see yet more negative comments about Simon's blog. The assumption that someone is forwarding messages to Simon is quite laughable. Is it really so inconcievable that Simon would be reading the comments himself?
I have no idea how many people have been put off the HE lists by the attitudes and behaviours displayed recently, but I do know of several families who avoid any contact with HE group precisely because of the attitudes and behaviours of the few autonomous home educators that they've actually met.
If I am Christain and you attack my lifestyle people would be appalled
ReplyDeleteIf I am Muslim and you attack my lifestyle people would be appalled
If I am Gay and you attack my lifestyle people would be appalled
If I am autonomously educating and you attack my lifestyle people think it is OK because I am not like them.
If I defend myself with passion I am abusive.
If my children don't behave the way you approve of you judge my whole lifestyle.
Who are YOU? What is it about you that makes you better? Is your lifestyle above scrutiny?
If you think autonomous educators are attacking you, have you thought of a possible reason why?
I don't see any autonomous educators asking for structured educators to be banished.
To be fair Anonymous, I have yet to hear of anybody asking for autonomous educators to be banished! I am certainly no better than anybody else and my lifestyle is very definitely not above scrutiny. I'm not sure about comparing autonomous educating with being gay. I'm not sure whether gay people actually choose their orientation, whereas autonomous educators do decide to act in a particular way. Only a fool would criticise somebody for being something which they cannot help. Of course people do attack the lifestyles of Christians a lot and also Muslims. I don't happen to agree with those who do so, but they have a perfect right to say what they wish about my religion. If I choose to go to church then of course somebody could accuse me of being a hypocrite and so on. This does happen, I have never been appalled by it. I was not aware of attacking you. I may have questioned whether your educational methods are the most effective, but then people have often said the same to me about my decision to home educate my child. I never saw it as an attack.
ReplyDeleteThe most popular educational method used by those who withdraw their children from school in this country is known as structured education and involves people sitting their children at the kitchen table all day! I believe this peculiar technique is causing incalculable damage to the thousands of home educated children upon whom it is used.
ReplyDeleteshocking stuff! Just questioning whether your educational methods are effective ..
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools/simon-webb-we-must-get-tough-on-home-schooling-1764348.html
Simon said,
ReplyDelete"You say that children's preferences are as valid as ours, but I can't quite agree with you there. If a small child shows a preference to drink from a bottle of bleach because she is attracted by the gaily coloured bottle, most parents would remove it from her, by force if necessary. If I had a three year old child who showed a preference for running into the road when cars were about, I would not really view that preference as just as valid as my own preference that she should walk safely on the pavement."
Not much time for a proper response (Mouse, Joely, Allie and others seem to be doing an excellent job anyway) but just wanted to cover this. In these situations it's not their preferences that are at fault, it's their lack of knowledge and experience. In the bleach example their preference is to try a new, interesting looking drink. Their preference is not to drink something that hurts and will make them ill. Snatching the bottle from them just as they put it to their mouths is not violent or coercive, you are giving them time to safely learn that drinking bleach is not what they are expecting. In an ideal world this would have been covered before but we all make mistakes. When the child sees your panicked and fearful reaction they will realise that something significant has happened and that there may be something wrong with the interesting new drink, even a can toddler can understand this. They will understand when you say things like nasty or hurt, or ouch (or whatever word they or you use when they hurt themselves), possibly miming a painful stomach ache, especially if they have experienced one themselves, whilst pointing at the bleach. They may be interested to see the effect it has on coloured clothing, etc, etc.
In the road example their preference may be to cross to the other side of the road quickly and safely. Their preference is not to be hit by a car. They know that falling and hitting the ground hard is painful by now, they probably even know that being hit by things (bats, balls that miss their hands, doors that slam, etc) can hurt and would prefer to avoid the pain. Once they know what could have happened (you could drive over a pumpkin on the drive to demonstrate, maybe mention road kill if this wouldn't upset the child) they will realise that what could have happened was not their preference.
"The most popular educational method used by those who withdraw their children from school in this country is known as structured education and involves people sitting their children at the kitchen table all day!"
ReplyDeleteCould you tell me how you know that? Is there some research you could point me to, please?
The only research that I know of is some by Rothermel which seemed to demonstrate that the majority of HE'ers used a mix of methods.
A short time doing 'structured' work in the morning followed by afternoons free to socialise or follow up personal interests etc seems to be the most popular approach among the HE'ers I know.
I don't know any kids who have been damaged, incalculably or otherwise, by this approach. All of those we know who've moved on to FE or work from that background are happy and thriving young adults. As have the young people who were educated autonomously.
Mrs Anon
Anonymous just copied and pasted words written by Simon (see the linked article) and replaced 'autonomous' with 'structured' in an attempt to show Simon why people might be upset at what he has said (I believe that's what they intended anyway). Personally I've never seen anyone make such a statement about normal structured home education education, except possible about the extreme hot housing examples that have demonstrably led to harm. As I think you will probably agree, autonomous could equally well replace structured in your reply and still be accurate. In my experience too, a mixed approach is the most common. I think home educators fall within a typical bell curve with highly structured, parent directed home educators in a minority at one end and completely autonomous educators in a minority at the other, the vast majority falling somewhere between. I've never understood Simon's insistence that autonomous education is the most common approach there is no evidence, research or anecdotal, to support this theory and plenty of evidence that the bell curve is likely to be accurate.
ReplyDeleteIf you were Muslim Simon and you were fawning around the corridors of power trying to impose your worldview on my family, like you are now, yeah I think I'd be saying exactly the same.
ReplyDeleteJoely
"Well, we don't yet know what the provisions of any new legislation will be."
ReplyDeleteSo when you accuse autonomous eds of unreasonably suspecting that they will be prevented from educating and parenting according to their own integrity and vociferously assert that Badman will do no such thing, you are actually just bullshitting. Right?
Joely
"Fawning around the corridors of power", yes I like that, Joely. You are saying then, if I understand you correctly, that I was wrong to agree to give eviden to the select committee? I might mention that the other home educating parent who was called to give evidence is actually a headmaster. Do you feel that he would be more likely to represent your views effectively? Don't worry though, David Wright will not now be giving evidence on Wednesday.
ReplyDeleteBadman can't do a thing. He's made recommendations to the DCSF, some of which they will probably try to put into a new Safeguarding Bill. I am saying that until we know what is going to be put into that Bill, it is a bit early to start getting hysterical about the attack on our rights. Let's wait and see.
ReplyDeleteSo, you were bullshitting.
ReplyDeleteJoely
What an agressive individual you appear to be, Joely. Exactly the sort of person, in fact, that I was writing about in the above post. I don't think that there is any intention to prevent autonomous home eduators from carrying on. You do think so. I assume that we read have much the same material on the subject and so it comes down to a matter of personal judgement. I don't think that you are bullshitting, I think that you genuinely believe that you are right about this. I also believe that I am right about it. We cannot both be right and so one of us is wrong. Which one that is will be revealed when and if the new law is passed. As I see it, until then we are both in a similar position.
ReplyDelete"I don't think that there is any intention to prevent autonomous home eduators from carrying on."
ReplyDeleteOn what basis do you think this?
Surely you have read the report?
Parents will be required to coerce their children to:
a) make and conform to plans up to 12 months in advance
b) perform or exhibit their learning on demand in front of an LA inspector
c) meet with said inspector and meet him alone
None of those things are compatible with autonomous ed. So autonomous educators will have to stop being autonomous. The intention is there, in black and white in Badman's report. Yet when I ask you to explain your insistence that Badman's proposals will not outlaw HE you just tell me "it is a bit early to start getting hysterical about the attack on our rights. Let's wait and see."
So please, knock yourself out, explain and support your view that
"I don't think that there is any intention to prevent autonomous home eduators from carrying on"
and your assertion that
"I have no wish at all to coerce you into coercing your children. Nor do I wish to use the threat of force to make you parent in any particular fashion."
when you apparently fully support Badman's proposals to use force to make me coerce my child?
Joely
Graham Badman made twenty seven detailed recommendations. Everything that he suggested will not be incorporated into a new law. Until we know which bits will be included, we are both in the dark. Some of what you are worried about, for example conforming to plans made twelve months in advance, is not mentioned at all in the recommendations. It is suggested that a plan should be made, certainly. There is nothing about conforming to it, let alone any sanctions if this is not done. I have already covered the idea that children will routinely be expected to speak alone to local authority officers.
ReplyDeleteOver my dead body will my child be left alone with a LA officer. Every paedophile in the land will be after that job and all the CRB checks and vetting databases in the world won't keep my child safe from a successful paedo - i.e one who has managed not to be caught or suspected.
ReplyDeleteLA inspection could be a cover for child abuse. If I am guilty until proven innocent, they most definitely are.
Joely
You don't seem to be able to give a straight answer Simon. You obfuscate like a seasoned politician.
ReplyDeleteJoely
Can I count on your support then Simon if force is used against me to use force against my child in order to comply with new regulations?
ReplyDeleteJoely
Ooh.. so David Wright was the man who had home educated his own children and was a head of an independent school - is that the right man? Wasn't he very symphathetic to home education and didn't want legislation? And he now isn't appearing??
ReplyDeleteThat's the fellow Julie. It's actually a bit odd. When I did the famous piece for the TES, he was originally supposed to be the person responding to me. Somewhere down the line, he dropped out. Now the same thing seems to have happened again, apparently he is ill this time. I have no idea whether he works in a maintained school and has trouble getting permission from his LA to speak out in public on this subject. I know he gave an interview a while back. All the signs are that I am going to be the one and only home educating parent in the whole select committee process, which I think might not be very popular in some quarters! I have an idea that they are going to replace David Wright with another organisation rather than a private individual.
ReplyDeleteHow absolutely predictable that the only person who will apparently be there on an "individual" basis is a white, middle-class, Christian, male who is extremely hostile to autonomous education. Frankly my integrity and ethics would compel me to stand down in favour of someone more representative. But then, I don't have this whole control thing going on.
ReplyDeleteJoely
Can I count on your support then Simon if force is used against me to use force against my child in order to comply with new regulations?
ReplyDeleteJoely
Joely said "the only person who will apparently be there on an "individual" basis is a white, middle-class, Christian, male who is extremely hostile to autonomous education."
ReplyDeleteIt could be argued Joely actually he may be fairly representative - well perhaps not on gender...but (as I have said somewhere here before) the biggest Christian email list is smaller than the EO one (although they do have list members in common) but isn't far behind Mike FW's UK HE list number wise, and since some of the more conservative Christians don't use computers, the balance maybe more equal than that. Then there are lots of Christian home educators who are against the review (I am one) but again there are other home educators who are either for the review or don't care about it....(I know quite a few actually) ... so the balance may not be too out!...Simon may not be in that much of a minority by your standards!!
No I'm sorry Julie, it's just not on. Simon is not only Christian, he's also middle-class, middle-aged, white and male with extremist views on autonomous ed. What proportion of the HE community fits that description?
ReplyDeleteWe already know that Simon's views on autonomous ed are informed by his belief in the doctine of original sin. It's simply unacceptable to have Christian theology per Simon Webb anywhere near Govt policy that will affect people of all religions and none.
Home educators are mostly female, there are many pagans, many muslims, many atheists, there are black home educators and brown home educators, middle class home educators, working class home educators, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller home educators, rich home educators, poor home educators, heterosexual home educators and homesexual home educators. But how many middle-class, middle-aged, white and male with extremist views on autonomous ed home educators are there?
Joely
Joely, some of the things you are saying are so frightful that I think you need to stop and think a bit. You claim that you are unhappy about being represented by a white, middle class man. I belong to UNISON, the public sector union and our branch secretary is a black woman. If some fool sidled up to me and said, "Here, I don't like being represented by a working class, black woman.", then I would regard that person as a pig-ignorant oaf. Need I say more?
ReplyDeleteThe business about Christianity needs classification. Not everybody who attends church regularly is a Christian. I lived in Israel for some years and while there I worshipped in mosques and synagogues as well as churches. I adhere more to the teachings of the Old Testament than the New and according to my daughter I am not a Christian because I believe that there is only one God and that Jesus was the last and greatest of the prophets, rather than being God incarnate. I have even occasionally worshipped in Hindu temples in this country. I am hardly likely, therefore to pass on any Christian thelogy to the select committee. However, there are Christians visiting this Blog and perhaps you might display a little more cultural sensitivity towards them? Let's look at something you said and replace Christian with Muslim;
"It's not really surprising that Simon thinks he has a monopoly on the truth, won't be moved from an illogical position no matter how much evidence comes his way and feels he has some kind of right to make us all do it his way. That seems to be standard operating procedure for some Muslims."
Can you se the problem now? Just exercise a little more tact and also remember that church going, and also of course mosque going and synagogue going, are all social activities as well as religious practice. I go to church every Sunday because that's simply what I have done for years. I expect some genuine Christians would despise me! The idea of my peddling Christian theology to a House of Commons select committee has had my family in fits of laughter! I would say keep them coming Joely, but as I say if you are not careful you are going to offend somebody soon with all this nonsense.
I have this wonderful image in my mind now of standing up in front of a committee of MPs, brandishing a Bible and crying, "Thus saith the Lord of Hosts..." It would almost be worth it just for the look on people's faces! One final point, Joely. I shall not be representing you at all at the select committee. There are reprsentatives of various organisations such as Education Otherwise and the NSPCC due to give evidence that day, but I am going in the capacity of a private citizen.
ReplyDeleteJoely said "But how many middle-class, middle-aged, white and male with extremist views on autonomous ed home educators are there?"
ReplyDeleteI have no idea...but logically Simon is not likely to be the only one- and I do know plenty of other anti AE ers. I assume Simon was however chosen to speak to the Select Comm because he was representative of the "Yes" campaign. Now he is therefore not representing you (or me) but he is presenting the "yes" campaign, just as the 3 group reps (and the other home educator who has now dropped out) were representative of those people who said "No" to Badman. You may not like what Simon has to say, but he is not claiming to represent you - and he does still fortunately have every right to express his views.
You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about Muslims Simon. I have not yet met a Muslim who wanted to stop me from parenting and educating in one way and make me do it another way. Unfortunately you are simply the latest in a long line of Christians who regularly think it is their prerogative to do so. The fact that you are not of the born again variety makes no difference to the fact that it is Christian theology which informs your view on autonomous ed. I freely admit not all Christians do this but for some it seems to go with the territory. If that were also my experience of Muslims and you were a Muslim attempting to force your theology on my family then I would be saying the same things. But it isn't and you are not. So I don't.
ReplyDeleteI find the doctrine of original sin and the attitude towards children that emerges from it thoroughly offensive and obnoxious, so perhaps you shouldn't be mentioning it on your blog because I visit here and it offends me? You may be a "for show" christian only Simon but your theology is poison and you have no right to try and foist it upon anyone.
Joely
I doubt I have a chip on my shoulder about Muslims, Joely. I was just trying to show you how awful you sound. I have never had any truck at all with the doctrine of origianl sin. Why do you bring that into it? I think that there has been a fall, in the sense that we have become estranged from the friendship of God, but that is nothing to do with original sin. I would myself be annoyed if somebody came on here and told me that children were born with a taint of wickedness! What is it about me that makes you think I feel that way?
ReplyDeleteOoo I love it when you backpeddle Simon, did I hit a nerve? Was your CBE (or is it 30 silver coins?) looking a bit wobbly there for a moment?
ReplyDeleteJoely
Back peddling? About original sin? I don't think so. Tell me, what was it that I said that made you believe that I subscribe to this doctrine?
ReplyDelete