Friday 11 June 2010

A final word about university

I think that this topic has been more or less worked to death, but after Alison Sauer drew my attention to a few universities which she felt would be promising to those with no formal qualifications, it seemed churlish not to look into the matter. I have now been in touch with the four universities and all but one are complete duds for the purpose of the home educated young person without GCSEs, A levels or an IB.

I spoke to people at each of the universities, which were Oxford, Cambridge, St. Andrews and Nottingham Trent. I am quite a persuasive fellow, but I have to say that Oxford and Cambridge clearly thought that I was off my head for even asking about such a thing! My mention of a "well kept lab book", which Alison Sauer said would be regarded by some as far better evidence of scientific understanding than an A level in the relevant subject, provoked, I am sorry to say, laughter at all the universities except for Nottingham Trent. I followed these enquiries up with emails, so that we would have something more than my own recollections of the conversations. Oxford said;

In almost every case, we will very much be looking for specific qualifications at a high level, although we do accept a wide variety of possible qualifications

In the email, we are told, 'in almost every case', which seems to suggest room for manoeuvre, but when I spoke to the woman, she told me she was not aware of a single case. Cambridge were even more definite. They said;

It is unlikely that any of the Colleges at Cambridge would consider an application from anybody who did not have some form of formal qualifications. Application to Cambridge is extremely competitive, and colleges need to be able to ascertain whether or not an applicant would be able to cope with the very academic courses that Cambridge offers. Without formal qualifications it would be incredibly difficult to judge this, and any applicant without examination results would be competing on a very high level with other applicants who would be offering some form of examination system.

This seems pretty certain to me. When I spoke to the guy there, he had never heard of anybody getting in without the accepted qualifications. St Andrews were also definitely sure that nobody had got in without qualifications, at least in the last few years. Which leaves Nottingham Trent.

Nottingham Trent University is what is know euphemistically as a 'new' university. It was until 1992 a technical college or polytechnic or something or that sort. It must not under any circumstances be confused with Nottingham University, which is, and has always been, a university. Now I don't think that anybody could accuse me of being at all snobbish or elitist, certainly not about matters of education, but I have to observe that a degree from Nottingham Trent is broadly equivalent in value to the old-style CSE............at about Grade 8. I was accordingly not particularly surprised to find that Nottingham Trent are prepared to be a little more flexible than some of the, shall we say, older universities. Not for Physics mind, which seems to be about the only proper academic subject they teach there. But for some of the courses, there is a distinct possibility that one could get in on a portfolio or even just by having favourable past experience. I had a long chat with a woman there and she specifically mentioned Horticulture: Garden design and Fashion Design as courses which one might possibly be able to join without any formal qualifications. She certainly remembered more than one person who had done so in the past. She was equally sure that nobody would get onto the Physics course without at least a GCSE in the subject and almost certainly an A level as well.

So the situation does indeed seem to be, as I have said all along, that for a traditional, academic course such as Physics, then even at the modern universities, you will be out of luck. The one ray of hope is that some universities, even Oxbridge, are prepared to consider the first year of a BA course at another university as being equivalent to three A levels. I understand that this would depend upon both the university and the course. I suppose in theory that this could be done of Open University points, but I am guessing that you would need at least 120 to pull this off and even then you would stand more chance with A levels.

49 comments:

  1. "Now I don't think that anybody could accuse me of being at all snobbish or elitist, certainly not about matters of education, but I have to observe that a degree from Nottingham Trent is broadly equivalent in value to the old-style CSE............at about Grade 8."

    On what do you base your assessment, Simon? Nottingham Trent was joint 57th in the Times University League table and ahead, I note, of a number of 'old' universities.

    ReplyDelete
  2. "although we do accept a wide variety of possible qualifications" (Oxford University)

    "some form of formal qualifications." (Cambridge University)

    Not necessarily GCSE's, then.

    "nobody would get onto the Physics course without at least a GCSE in the subject and almost certainly an A level as well." (Nottingham Trent)

    One GCSE and maybe an A level. Anyone with an aptitude for the subject should be able to manage this at home.

    "I am guessing that you would need at least 120 to pull this off and even then you would stand more chance with A levels."

    You are guessing.

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  3. Maybe I'm missing some background to this point. How do you arrive at a scenario where someone is wanting to study Physics at Oxford, but can't get in without a GCSE? Surely to be wanting to do that in the first place, they would have to have a significant degree of interest, aptitude and knowledge in the subject. In which case, why not just take the exam, which such a child would sail through.

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  4. Suzyg, these positions are heavily rigged by including such factors as student satisfaction and subjective assessment by heads. Besides, I didn't say that Nottingham Trent was the worst in the country, it's not by a long chalk!

    Tess, yes of course both Oxford and Cambridge accept qualifications other than GCSEs. They rely after all upon income from overseas students. What they do not accept is no qualifications, g recently. Tell me, roughly how many OU points would you say actually equate to the first year of a BA course? I am curious about this and nobody to whom I have spoken seems to know. You evidently do.

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  5. Ciaran, somebody posted on one of the lists, asking if it was true that one could get into university without doing GCSEs or other formal examinations. I posted about this, suggesting that it was unlikely that any young person could get onto a course in traditional, academic subjects like Physics in this way. Alison Sauer then said that some universities would prefer;

    "which could, for example, include an in depth professionally kept lab book - better evidence of scientific understanding than any A level"

    I have been looking into this and trying to find a Physics course which does not require formal qualifications and in which evidnece of this sort could be used.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "Suzyg, these positions are heavily rigged by including such factors as student satisfaction and subjective assessment by heads. Besides, I didn't say that Nottingham Trent was the worst in the country, it's not by a long chalk!"

    So presumably your judgement about the quality of the degree was objective and based on data. I just wondered what the data was.

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  7. "Tell me, roughly how many OU points would you say actually equate to the first year of a BA course? I am curious about this and nobody to whom I have spoken seems to know. You evidently do."

    Evidently? No, I don't. I suggest you ask the OU.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I wonder if speaking to admin people with a member of the public with a hypthetical enquiry might have a different effect than speaking to a course tutor/subject head as a very interested student with relevant qualifications and/or experience.

    Admin people often say no, either because they don't know + are busy, or just because it's not what usually happens!

    As another poster said, I would have thought someone wanting to study physics and who is able enough to study it an university would be happy to take a GCSE or some other qualification - OU courses are more interesting - or be able to present their knowledge some other way. If they're not up for the level of study, then of course they shouldn't be accepted to study physics. I think they would definately need to seek out the head of physics at the university though, and discuss it with them. There would be no point getting on the course if it's going to be too hard anyway.

    As an anecdote: when I was young a college admin lady said I couldn't take the course I wanted, definately not. The course tutors immediate reaction was of course you can!

    ReplyDelete
  9. You make some good points Fiona M. My contention was that by not sitting GCSEs, home educated children are going to be disadvnataged if they later wish to study acaedmic subjects at college or university. They may however not realise this until they actually make an application, because there is a whole mythology around the fact that it is possible to get into universities without sitting any formal examinations. I was exploring this possibility. I have in the past spoekn to heads of departments about this and they are in agreement with admissions; nothing doing!

    The point which I am trying to get across is that one might be able to get onto a course in Textile Design or Performing Arts by means of an audition or portfolio, but you will be unlikely to get to study Physics at Cambridge. It is just something for home educating parents, particularly autonomous ones to bear in mind. The decision not to sit GCSEs can cast a very long shadow.

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  10. Tess, I used the word 'evidently', because when I was talking about the idea of a first year BA being translated into OU points, you told me bluntly, 'You are guessing' I took this to mean that you knew something more about it which led to your assurance that I was only guessing. I take it that you know no more about the matter than I do.

    ReplyDelete
  11. No, you said you were guessing. I quote: "I am guessing"

    ReplyDelete
  12. You need 360 points for an honours degree so 120 points is equivalent to the first year (or 300 points for a Ba/Bsc without honours). Not sure you would need this many to be equivalent to A levels though. OU courses are level 4 and A levels are level 3 qualifications. Reading state that 60 OU points meet their normal minimum requirements and if you have 120 points, they will consider admission into the second year.

    Cambridge state: "Certain Access and Open University courses may meet the GCSE and/or A level requirements, in whole or part. You should discuss any courses you’ve taken or are considering taking with a Cambridge Admissions Tutor."

    Essex state: "The following are among the qualifications we normally consider as a basis for the admission of applicants with non standard qualifications: Open University courses."

    St George's University London's, Therapeutic Radiography BSc (Hons) course states: "Open University: We will consider 120 OU credits. 60 must be ‘Exploring Science’ and 30 each in two other modules, one of which must be either ‘Human Biology’ or ‘Biology, Uniformity and Diversity’."

    Exeter states: "To meet our general entrance requirements you will need one or more of the following: Holders of Open University credits with a minimum of 60 credits"

    ReplyDelete
  13. Thank you, Anonymous. I made my calculation about the 120 points based on the figure you give. What you quote from St George's seems to confirm it. This is very interesting and is what I suspected all along.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Actually, the original poster on HE-UK wasn't asking about whether it is possible to get into university with no qualifications at all. She was asking whether it is possible to get into university without having been to *school* to do *GCSEs and A-levels*.

    I think your helpful research and that of your commenters has established that this is indeed possible (though not, of course, easy or straightforward)

    ReplyDelete
  15. You know suzyg, for somebody who studied under Max Colthart to assume a faux naif amazement at the idea that there is any difference between a proper university and one of the former teachnical colleges is astonishing! The trick of getting a lousy university or college to look good in the rankings which you cite is not a hard one. To give you a concrete example, the technical college which my daughter attends now boasts that it is in the top 5% of FE colleges nationally. This is staggering, because it really is an absolutely shit estabishment. It is in the top 5% of FE colleges, to the extent that a high proportion of the students actually complete their course. If you look at the nature of the course, or the percentage who actually gain a qualification at a decent level, it is a different story. For a 'university' offering degrees in Fashion Design to be placed in the same table as those offering PPE. as though like were being compared with like, is ludicrous and misleading. I suspect that you know this as well as I do.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Actually Dani, I have yet to establish anything of the sort. I set out to find if it is possible to gain entrance to a university and study academic subjects like sciences, history or mathematics without taking any GCSEs. So far, I have not found any where this has been the case. The exceptions are students from overseas, who take various courses which are equivalent. Nor have I been able to find any case of anybody gaining entrance to a university to study sciences, mathematics, history and so on, simply on the strength of OU points. It is perfectly true that in the cause of 'widening access', a number of universities claim to be open to the idea. I asked round quite a few some while ago and none knew of such a case. The exception remains Iain Dowty's son and there are of course other reasons for his admission apart from the OU points.

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  17. I don't know anything about Nottingham Trent (except that I think it was a well known poly when it was a poly) but my husband recently retired from a "New Uni" last year. It didn't score very highly in any sort of table ... but it did do one thing very well - primary teacher's training. It had of course been a well known teacher's training college (indeed Charlotte Mason, beloved of home educators had once lectured there), but as is the way of things it then followed a tortured path of becoming a Higher Education College, then a University College, and now a Uni. The only apparent advantage to us was the endless supply of "rough paper" for art work every time they threw out the last lot of headed notepaper. Sigh....

    ReplyDelete
  18. Simon, I quoted this example on a list yesterday (so I am not breaking anyones copyright!!) - I do know one HE family whose dd has uni offers for science based on just OU points and 3 GCSES - she has 120 points and was declined by 2 well known places because they didn't accept them as equivalent; the ones that have made offers though said it was the fact she had 2 second year courses which was the significant factor.

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  19. The problem is of course that in general if something looks like a dog, has four legs and goes 'Woof', it's probably a dog. I can't stand this practice of rebranding schools as colleges and academies, colleges as universities and so on. It does not change the essentially nature of a thing to call it by a different name. Even more to the point, a first class polytechnic can easily end up as a second rate university.

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  20. Thanks for that, Julie. Again, it pretty much confirms what I thought. I have a suspicion that many 'well known' universities will behave like this, even with 120 OU points.

    ReplyDelete
  21. "For a 'university' offering degrees in Fashion Design to be placed in the same table as those offering PPE. as though like were being compared with like, is ludicrous and misleading. I suspect that you know this as well as I do."

    So, since you've provided no objective data, I think it's safe to conclude that your opinion on degrees from Nottingham Trent is purely that - your opinion.

    And quite frankly, given the performance of some people with PPE degrees in recent years, Fashion Design might actually be more useful.

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  22. Ha, a shrewd stroke indeed suzyg. You are, I imagine, referring to some of our politicos, among whom PPE seems to be the degree of choice?

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  23. Precisely. Not an outstanding track record I feel.

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