Saturday 5 June 2010

Going to college at fourteen

There is currently a good deal of interest in the Department for Children, Schools and Families' assurance that children aged fourteen will soon have the opportunity to study for examinations in Further Education colleges and that such studies will be funded by central government, via the local authorities. There are a number of problems with the whole idea of children attending college at this early age.

Not only do some young people go to college a couple of years before they turn sixteen; others go when they are a bit older than that. For example, at my daughter's college there is a young man of twenty who is taking A levels. Most of the seventeen year old girls have quickly realised that he is a Grade A sleazebucket, the kind of guy who hits on every girl he meets in a very unsavoury fashion. Also at the college is a fourteen year old girl who has been out of school for a year and has been given a place at the college. She is now spending a good deal of time with this twenty year old man; they even go to the pub at lunchtime. Having been given the brush-off by all the seventeen and eighteen year old girls, he evidently finds it easier to impress a fourteen year old. She for her part is flattered by the attention. Anybody see any dangers here, in a shy and vulnerable fourteen year old girl being thrown regularly into the company of a sexually predatory twenty year old man in this way? This is not the only disadvantage.

Most of the girls at the college spend a good deal of time discussing, surprise surprise, sex. Who they are doing it with, with whom they would like to do it, how their periods were three weeks late and led to the fear of pregnancy, the rival merits of various methods of contraception and so on. Again, this might not be the sort of environment that many parents would wish for their fourteen year old daughters. Of course, there are other fourteen and fifteen year olds at college. Many, perhaps most colleges have a sprinkling now of young students. Perhaps the fourteen year old home educated child going to college could find a ready made peer groups there? Unfortunately, not. The majority of fourteen year olds who currently attend FE colleges tend to be problem kids of one sort and another. Some have been excluded from school, others have various problems. Without wishing to be snobbish and elitist, I have a suspicion that most of these kids are not the sort that a sheltered home educated child is going to get on with brilliantly.

There is also the problem of course that few colleges do GCSEs, if this is what parents are looking for. Any fourteen year old home educated child being given a place at college will be limited in the main to vocational subjects such as hairdressing and vehicle maintenance. Nothing at all wrong with that of course, but it is a limitation. I do know that some home educating parents had at the back of their minds that going to college at fourteen would allow their children to take academic subjects. this is really a non-starter. They certainly won't be able to get on to any A level course early without already having the appropriate GCSEs.

There are good reasons generally why our educational system is arranged so that children stick broadly to children their own age. This has as much to do with development and shared interests as it does with education. A child of eleven may well be capable of doing the same work as a sixteen year old, but it would not really be a good scheme to mix up children of these very different ages together. this is for their own protection as much as anything. I shall be interested to see how the new scheme of local authorities receiving funding to give children places in FE colleges works out in practice. For my own part I do not think it a brilliant idea at all and I certainly would not have wanted my own daughter hanging around at fourteen with eighteen or twenty year olds!

29 comments:

  1. At the moment everyone is waiting for the new Dept of Ed to put what they actually mean in writing; but I do think that if/when things become clear this isn't likely to appeal to huge numbers of families anyway. Our local colleges already have (and have had for years) a well established 14-16 college route - and a couple of local HErs have already taken advantage of that (although currently the funding has had to come via a school rather than direct from the LA, because of course there isn't any actual money in the LA bucket for HE children). The courses on offer are one day a week, vocational NVQ1 qualifications in motor mechanics, hairdressing etc - and are aimed at youing people who may well want to go onto the same course at a higher level at 16 and who may (because the type of child) not get enough GCSEs to do so were they in school. For some the courses are sweeteners (ie behave well in school and you get out of there for 1 day a week). Thse young people seem to stick together as a group and not mix much with the rest of the students and generally the whole scheme works well; and if funding becomes available then I can see some HE families wanting to use this route for some of their children; but not all, because they are very vocational and relatively low level courses.

    As to other courses- well there are the new Diplomas, which are much more full time, but many of those are delivered in all or in part by actual schools, so I am not sure how HE families will feel about that, and if they are full time courses, they could be accessed by merely going back on the school roll anyway.

    To your point about the suitability of college for 14 year olds...I do agree that it can be a huge problem. It seems a bit ironical that some HE families withdraw children from schools because they (quite rightly) dislike the school environment, peer pressure, ...and then want to send their under age children to places where these issues are even less well monitored.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Good point Julie, about the monitoring of issues in schools and colleges. Schools are very clued up on bullying and often deal with it well. Colleges seem less concerned about it, although it does happen. At my daughter's college there is a fair amount unpleasant talk about students with special educational needs, for example. All these things seem to be handled better in schools than they are in college.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Simon says 'Anybody see any dangers here, in a shy and vulnerable fourteen year old girl being thrown regularly into the company of a sexually predatory twenty year old man in this way? '

    Let's hope he or his family don't somehow find out about this blog and sue you, Simon. Those are VERY harsh words.

    BTW, there are plenty of 11 years olds regularly exposed to the company of 18 year old boys at places called Secondary Schools.

    Your first post on this subject was quite good and you made some useful points, which I agreed with. Exaggerating the dangers for effect can wear a bit thin, though.

    As it happens, I have a friends whose 15 yo daughter has completed 8 good IGCSE's and wants to start A Levels at college a year early, but she can't seem to get funding, which is very sad. So, I guess, she'll have to twiddle her thumbs for a year until she can be funded.

    Mrs Anon

    ReplyDelete
  4. As a teacher, I am surprised that you should say, ' there are plenty of 11 years olds regularly exposed to the company of 18 year old boys at places called Secondary Schools'. There are unwritten rules of behaviour in schools generally, whereby children tend to keep to their own age group. Friendships between those of varying ages is unusual and can expose a child to mockery. The social structure of schools is such that one would seldom see a fourteen year old hanging round with an eleven year old. Did you teach secondary? These age restrictions are very strong with younger children and fade as they get older. By college, they have all but vanished. I consider such taboos as very healthy and useful; you evidently do not.

    You may well think that I am exaggerating hazards for dramatic effect, but I will have to disagree with you. As for being sued, well this is a very expensiive process. I have pissed many people off in my life and none have ever had the money to bring an action against me for defamation. Still, there is a first time for everything. I think one of us might be a little innocent here. I can see danger in a fourteen year old girl spending a lot of time in the company of a twenty year old man. The fact that you cannot see this does not suggest to me that I am wrong about this.

    ReplyDelete
  5. 'Did you teach secondary?'

    Yes and FE. I remember very wide dating ages including a 15 yo dating the metalwork teacher...

    Mrs Anon

    ReplyDelete
  6. 'I consider such taboos as very healthy and useful; you evidently do not.'

    Huh?

    An extrapolation too far. Again.

    Mrs Anon

    ReplyDelete
  7. 'I can see danger in a fourteen year old girl spending a lot of time in the company of a twenty year old man. The fact that you cannot see this does not suggest to me that I am wrong about this.'

    Now you are just being argumentative. I said that the last time you wrote a post about concerns you had about 14-16 year old going to FE, I agreed with you.

    But defaming someone like that is unnecessarily harsh ('sexual predator') and implying that it is common is also unnecessary. There are enough real concerns for you not to have to go so far.

    It just seems to me that when you do a makeover of a topic, like this one (and many of your later posts are makeovers of previous posts) you get a little more extreme, even a bit hysterical. Problem is, people will not take you seriously. (FE's populated with sexual predators and none of those at all in schools etc)

    You don't need to be melodramatic about it. Just be factual. And the facts are that FE colleges are not always the best places for 14 year olds for a variety of reasons.

    Mrs Anon

    ReplyDelete
  8. Perhaps one of us is exagggerating for dramatic effect Mrs Anon, but I am far from convinced that it is I. You claim that I said, ' (FE's populated with sexual predators and none of those at all in schools etc)'. I actually gave an example of a real situation in a collge which I knew of. I suggested that it was something which could happen and was undesirable, not that it was a frequent or typical event. Calling somebody a 'sexual predator' does not strike me as at all harsh; it is a description of an individual whom I have met and about whom I have heard a great deal.

    I revisited this subject partly because there is interest among members of Education Otherwise about the possibility of their children attending colleges at fourteen and also because now that my daughter has been at college for a year or so, I am getting a good idea of some possible disadvantages. As I said, there is good reason for the taboos and conventions which restrict school children to companionship with those who only vary in age by a year or so. You evidently do not agree.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "As I said, there is good reason for the taboos and conventions which restrict school children to companionship with those who only vary in age by a year or so. You evidently do not agree."

    Mrs Anon said no such thing! Mrs Anon just made the point that this behaviour is not restricted to colleges as you seem to suppose, but also happens in schools so a 14 year old in college is not especially worse off than an 11-13 year old in secondary school. You could do with refreshing your reading comprehension skills methinks!

    ReplyDelete
  10. 'As I said, there is good reason for the taboos and conventions which restrict school children to companionship with those who only vary in age by a year or so. You evidently do not agree.'

    Don't be ridiculous.

    I heartily disapproved of the relationship the metalwork teacher (at the one of the secondary schools I taught in) was conducting with one of his 15 year old students. And all the other inappropriate relationships I saw whilst teaching in secondary schools. For you to imply they are more common in FE's is nonsensical.

    Mrs Anon

    ReplyDelete
  11. Mrs Anon said,

    'I consider such taboos as very healthy and useful; you evidently do not.'

    Huh?

    An extrapolation too far. Again.'

    It is not wholly clear what construction one should put upon this. One which I felt was not incompatible with what she said was that she disagreed with me about the value of the age taboos which are more firmly established in secondary schools than they are in Further Education colleges. I am not at all sure that this reflects badly upon my reading comprehension skills. It is more that one cannot always be sure what people mean when they use expressions such as 'Huh'. I also have defficulty when reading a piece of prose which includes what is evidently meants to be a sentence, 'Again.' and contains neither subject nor object and lacks even a verb. I did my best to interpret a somewhat obscure and gnomic message and if I failed wholly to decypher it, then the fault lies, I feel, at least as much with the writer as with the reader!

    ReplyDelete
  12. Tedious...Perhaps you should have read all my other messages in this thread. All would then have been clear, I'm sure.

    But in case it isn't (oh-oh, I started a sentence with but!), let me be categorical about the meaning of all my posts in this thread.

    1. It is NOT always a good idea for 14 and 15 year olds to be at FE college, though for some it will be the lesser of two evils, as per the eg I gave.

    2. Sexual Predator is a strong accusation, which you haven't really backed up. And if you have actual proof you should report him to the police.

    3. Inappropriate relationships are just as likely in secondary schools as they are in FE. I have direct experience of both sectors and can think of dozens of such relationships, mostly in schools.

    4. I do not approve of young girls going out with older men.

    5. Stop exaggerating. You sometimes have a kernal of truth and wisdom in your posts, but you obscure them with exaggeration, which you have admitted to using 'for literary effect'.

    6. Don't extrapolate too far from other people's posts, ascribing to them beliefs and opinions which they don't hold, thus alientaing the people who ACTUALLY AGREE WITH YOU, occasionally.

    Mrs Anon

    ReplyDelete
  13. Sexual Predator is a strong accusation, which you haven't really backed up. And if you have actual proof you should report him to the police.

    I agree he should be report to police if you have proof Simon? or his it just silly teen chat?

    also some teen girls get upset if they not wanted by some guy? is your daughter like this prephaps she fancys him? and knowing how you react she made out its him doing the chasing? can you imgaine your daughter bringing him a guy she dates to your house! my guess is you scare off all likly boyfriends/husbands!

    dont teen girls go out with guys fews year older? as boys they own age are to in mature? Julie what do you know on this subject?

    ReplyDelete
  14. The term, 'sexually predatory twenty year old man' is not an accusation but a description. From the perspective of a respectable, middle aged woman it is no doubt a harsh and offensive way to describe somebody, but many young men would find the expression flattering rather than otherwise. As for contacting the police, as far as I know the only offence which may have been committed is the serving of intoxicating liquor to a minor. I have no idea whether or not even this happened and had it done so it would more properly be a matter with which the licensee should be concerned.

    The whole set-up in FE colleges is very different and not really geared for fourteen year olds. To give another example from such a college which has many fourteen and fifteen year olds doing motor mainenance. One of the boys is bullied by the others.Most schools are pretty hot on bullying these days, and tend to take at least some action. Because colleges are geared towards young adults more than children, many of them are not as quick off the mark on this. Another instance would be at my daughter's college where there is a unit for students with special needs. Expressions like 'retard' and 'spas' are common currency among the other students and the teachers evidently cannot be bothered a lot of the time to challenge this. Again, in a secondary school, this sort of thing would be more likely to be dealt with. I don't think it melodramatic to imagine a home educated fourteen year old on the autistic spectrum attending such a college and receiving the same type of casual abuse.

    ReplyDelete
  15. The term, 'sexually predatory twenty year old man' is not an accusation but a description. From the perspective of a respectable, middle aged woman it is no doubt a harsh and offensive way to describe somebody, but many young men would find the expression flattering rather than otherwise. As for contacting the police, as far as I know the only offence which may have been committed is the serving of intoxicating liquor to a minor. I have no idea whether or not even this happened and had it done so it would more properly be a matter with which the licensee should be concerned.

    I dont think to many men would like this term said about them i think your wrong they!

    you can report the man to the college for taking under age girl to the pub the head would look into this matter? the college would contact the pub as well to find out what she had been drinking and to make pub aware whe was ubder age! the college could also contact the girls parents as well? and why has you daughter and her freinds done nothing? they could tell teacher as well?

    ReplyDelete
  16. Okay, another topic. Happy to engage on this one since it's another of my areas of epxpertise :-)

    My daughter, as you know, has ASD. As I have mentioned here, she has attended a specialist, purpose-built ASD unit located within an FE college campus which concentrates on building trades and motor vehicle repair. (She's been there, after HE, from the age of 16 until now,19).

    Every new intake of the neuro-typical cohort, of mainly boys, for the trade courses, is taken aside by their tutors and the ASD unit staff for of sensitivity training, explanations of autism and a stern warning about the consequences of the behaviour you describe as common in your daughter's college (even the canteen and admin staff have training) and all have been perfect gentlemen.

    In the years since the unit has been on this campus (located in the worst estate in the city) there have never been any problems for the ASD students. They have been treated most curteously.

    In fact, I've sat in my car waiting for her, watching groups of hoodied boys smoking in groups, as my attractive, vulnerable girl passes by towards the car park and have never seen or heard anything untoward. (And I've been looking out for it, ready to pounce as a mother tiger would.)

    Whatever the staff are doing on that campus to promote understanding of disability and gentlemanly behaviour is working.

    So, my conclusion is that there are VAST differences between colleges. I picked very carefully. I'd advise all parents to do the same.

    Mrs Anon
    BTW, my dd's disability is the reason I am Mrs Anon, so if you know the city or college, please do not identify it.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Simon said, 'From the perspective of a respectable, middle aged woman it is no doubt a harsh and offensive way to describe somebody.'

    I wasn't born either middle aged or respectable. Both states have been attained slowly over time. :-)

    I have a vivid memory of my youth and know exactly what some young men (and alas, some women) are capable of.

    Mrs Anon

    ReplyDelete
  18. n fact, I've sat in my car waiting for her, watching groups of hoodied boys smoking in groups, as my attractive, vulnerable girl passes by towards the car park and have never seen or heard anything untoward. (And I've been looking out for it, ready to pounce as a mother tiger would.)

    how refreshing to see that these boys do not behave bladly to your daughter its so easy to fall into the simon trap of thinking all hoodied boy are sex mad or taking drugs etc our son went out with group of lads last week was bit worried but it was fine and was told by a neighbour how well behaved they where in park and town he was in town and happend to see them!

    one should check college out first before sending child to it?

    ReplyDelete
  19. "It is more that one cannot always be sure what people mean when they use expressions such as 'Huh'. "

    It was obvious from her original message, I didn't need the 'Huh' message to confirm it for me!

    Re. the college and their treatment of young people with ASD and other disabilities. The college my daughter attends has a similar set up from the sounds of things. The young people have classroom helpers and and a room with sofas and TVs just for them and any invited friends for breaks and lunch times as well as a talk at the beginning of term.

    ReplyDelete
  20. This is all getting a bit complicated but....

    - obviously schools are not exempt from possibilities of sexual exploitation.
    - however in schools, the main issue does seem to be teacher-child abuse (which is of course, illegal and terrible)
    - since most UK schools no longer have a 6th form, the oldest pupils are only 16 and although I obviously consider sexual relationships between any pupils wrong, they would not be regarded in the same light by the police as would a relationship between a much older boy and a much younger girl (or the other way round).

    So under-age students in a college are therefore at theoretically greater risk than a school child, in my opinion - so in this matter I do support the whole idea that many colleges may be not the best place for under-age students.

    It is all a matter of numbers too- my dd had an exam this morning and so I was hanging around waiting for her to go in. The exam secretary happened to comment that they had a busy afternoon ahead - with 700 students sitting an exam in that session. This reminded me of how big the place is - 5000+ students, 5 cafes, - it is a completely different environment from school. Mrs A is fortunate with her dd's college set up - even though the college my dd is monitors academic progress carefully, I haven't seen anything to suggest that it is particularly safe or protective of anyone in a moral sense.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Julie says-I haven't seen anything to suggest that it is particularly safe or protective of anyone in a moral sense.

    is that a safe place for your daughter Julie? you should take this matter up with the Head teacher?

    ReplyDelete
  22. My daughter is 18, and although she may have ASD she isn't at all vunerable in that sense - she is completely determined and totally non conformist; she is perfectly happy being different!

    But I still do have reservations about the whole college climate and wouldn't consider it suitable for a 14 year old - or possibly any young person who is influenced by peer pressure.

    ReplyDelete
  23. "however in schools, the main issue does seem to be teacher-child abuse (which is of course, illegal and terrible)
    - since most UK schools no longer have a 6th form, the oldest pupils are only 16 and although I obviously consider sexual relationships between any pupils wrong, they would not be regarded in the same light by the police as would a relationship between a much older boy and a much younger girl (or the other way round)."

    There doesn't seem much difference between a relationship between an 11 and 15/6 year old in school and a 14 and 20 year old at college. If anything the first seems worse, but I've known it to happen. Maybe you have been lucky (if that's the right word!) with your experiences with schools.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Someone said "Maybe you have been lucky (if that's the right word!) with your experiences with schools"

    Hmm - not at all- at the first school I taught at, a physics teacher was sacked when it turned out he had married one of the 6th formers; all the time they weren't actually married, the rumours of a sexual relationship were ignored. Hardly a shining example of good conduct on anyones part!

    Despite that, and having taught in boarding schools, it was much more difficult for an inappropriate relationship between pupils of different ages to be established - such matters were carefully policed. I don't think most colleges however would even consider that part of their remit.

    ReplyDelete
  25. "Despite that, and having taught in boarding schools, it was much more difficult for an inappropriate relationship between pupils of different ages to be established - such matters were carefully policed."

    It wasn't policed in my school, carefully or otherwise!

    ReplyDelete
  26. "Hmm - not at all- at the first school I taught at, a physics teacher was sacked when it turned out he had married one of the 6th formers"

    I meant lucky in terms of young students not having relationships with older students. There were a few of these in my school (as well as a music teacher who went to prison for abuse).

    ReplyDelete
  27. I am not disagreeing about whether these things go on; I just find it a bit odd that although many (but not all) home educating families do so to keep their children away from the less desirable influences at school, it seems a little odd that the same families seem so enthusiastic about sending under age students to college.

    ReplyDelete
  28. This was not one of my reasons for not using schools so maybe that's why I'm struggling to understand this point of view. I wanted my children to be able to choose their learning and that included the choice of school. My daughter wanted to go to college early but was unable to. She was annoyed that other children her age in this area could go to college early (full time) if they had been expelled from school. I suggested that she could always try school but she already knew what she wanted to specialise in and had no interest at all in studying for a bunch of GCSEs for the sake of it. She wanted college because of a particular course it offered and this course was not available in schools.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Yes, I can see that must be annoying. It is conversations like this that show how diverse the reasons for home ed are.... and therefore perhaps why we find it difficult to understand each other. Amongst the home educators I know there are lots of would come into the category "don't want my child infleunced by peer pressure ect" so of course they would have different motivations to you.

    ReplyDelete