Tuesday 14 June 2011

On the fringe

Imran Shah, a home educating parent from the south of England, is by all accounts a competent enough social worker. If I wished to know anything about child protection procedures for example, he is certainly a man whose opinion I would value. Unfortunate then that on Saturday he chose instead to deliver a lecture about neurology and endocrinology; subjects in which he is ’interested’. Mike Fortune-Wood would similarly be worth hearing if he talked about setting up a large support network for home educators. He is probably not a man though whose views on the law I would seek and yet this was a subject on which he felt able to pontificate at the same meeting on Saturday. Call me Mr Old-fashioned, but when I want to know about the law, I tend to go to a solicitor or barrister! Nor would I go to somebody who studied anthropology at university if I wished to find out about the acquisition of literacy and I think that Harriet Pattinson knows who I am talking about here.


One of the things which I have noticed about home educating parents is that they have a tendency to follow people who are not accepted experts in various fields. There are many neurologists and they have written books on the subject. Their work appears in peer-reviewed journals. Why not read what these men and women have to say about their specialist subject, rather than relying upon what a social worker tells us about what they have discovered? Some people have spent their professional lives studying in great detail the process whereby children learn to read. They too have published books about this. Why not read these books if you wish to know about the acquisition of literacy? I suppose that the answer is that people like Harriet Pattinson, Mike Fortune-Wood and Imran Shah are known to be autonomous home educators. This is fine and dandy, but does not of course make them experts about law or neurology. It simply means that they will tell other autonomously educating parents what they wish to hear; confirm them in their own beliefs if you will. This may be comforting and reassuring, which is why all those home educators gathered in London last Saturday, but it won’t really teach anybody much. They would have gained more from a couple of hours spent researching the topics in the local library. Or, they could do what I do. When I want to know something about some specialised topic which touches upon home education; I ask the experts. Even world famous scientists will often respond to email questions or answer phone calls. I am guessing here though that most of the audience did not really come to learn about either neurology or law; they wanted people to tell them that they were doing the right thing and not, as many privately fear, screwing up their kids educational chances. From that point of view, the day was a resounding success!

34 comments:

  1. What day was that? I mean, was it some sort of conference?

    ReplyDelete
  2. It's here

    http://www.lttl.org.uk/index.html

    but I thought Imran Shah was talking about attachment?

    ReplyDelete
  3. 'but I thought Imran Shah was talking about attachment?'

    And so he was, but almost entirely in biological terms, making constant and extensive reference to the neurological aspects and the effect of things like cortisol and so on on brain function. Some of what he said was controversial, but I suspect that few in the audience realised that. The old adage about cobblers sticking to their lasts springs to mind.
    Simon.

    ReplyDelete
  4. It's very easy to be carried along when someone is saying what you want to hear! I think more than a little cultish. Being brainwashed by non-experts is a concern. I should point out that I am speaking as someone who did for a moment consider 'unschooling' with an open mind.

    As a scientist I am highly sceptical when anything science/health related comes up in HE circle discussions. I tend to just tune because I can't be bothered getting into arguments I'll never win.

    ReplyDelete
  5. @ Lynn

    I sympathise re the arguments. Unfortunately my family has been on the receiving end of a number of feral memes and has suffered as a result, so I feel obliged to keep an eye on what ideas are out there.

    ReplyDelete
  6. suzyg
    Memes? Had to look that up! I agree about the keeping an eye on new ideas, I really do have an open mind when it comes to ideas to incorporate into home educating. My approach though is to read things written by experts, peer reviewed articles etc. Although we go along to groups etc. I seem to be the kind of person who doesn't feel the need to belong to some kind of HE 'culture'. I used to go along to a radical unschoolers group, really just for an opportunity for my son to play with other children but I found myself biting my tongue quite a lot because things/ideas/philosophies were simply not up for discussion - they were facts! We dropped out of that group.

    ReplyDelete
  7. "My approach though is to read things written by experts, peer reviewed articles etc."

    Did you seen the American research a year or two back that found that education style made less than 1/2 a percent difference to academic attainment?

    http://www.nheri.org/Latest/Homeschooling-Across-America-Academic-Achievement-and-Demographic-Characteristics.html

    ReplyDelete
  8. "Did you seen the American research a year or two back that found that education style made less than 1/2 a percent difference to academic attainment?"

    I can't access the document (too old I think) so I don't know what criteria were used as a measure of academic achievement, nor the [statistical] significance of the findings. I think that *attitude* of the parents in terms of desire to provide the best learning environment possible for their child plays a big role in academic achievement.

    Actually what meant is if I needed information in a particular subject area "My approach would be to read things written by experts, peer reviewed articles etc." As it happens as far as HE goes I am just doing it my way so far and we're making it up as we go along!

    ReplyDelete
  9. Did you go to that conference, Simon?

    ReplyDelete
  10. "I think that *attitude* of the parents in terms of desire to provide the best learning environment possible for their child plays a big role in academic achievement."

    and,

    "As it happens as far as HE goes I am just doing it my way so far and we're making it up as we go along!"

    I think that's more or less what the research shows. It was there earlier today so I'm not sure why you can't see it. Not sure how to make a clickable link here though, which doesn't help.

    Here's another link to a more detailed report on the research:

    http://www.academicleadership.org/article/Academic_Achievement_and_Demographic_Traits_of_Homeschool_Students_A_Nationwide_Study

    and a short link to the same page:

    http://lnk.nu/academicleadership.org/1ox1

    ReplyDelete
  11. "Call me Mr Old-fashioned, but when I want to know about the law, I tend to go to a solicitor or barrister!"

    I think you'll find that most home educators know more about the law as it affects HE than most solicitors or barristers!

    ReplyDelete
  12. Oh heaven forbid, not an un-professional with an opinion about something he has not studied. Hail all your degree holders, we will render our wits useless, tell us what we have to believe...

    Ubuntu

    ReplyDelete
  13. I believe the correct term for such a person is
    pseudo-intellectual.
    Normally they're pre pubescent boys who think they've 'figured it all out'.
    Usually they can be found regurgitating all sorts of bullsh!t about religion, sex, politics, education etc...
    but it's clear that they've no real experience of any of them.
    The pseudo uses a dictionary or thesaurus as a weapon or the means to impress everyone with his intellectual ability to master words.
    But can't quite pronounce his newly aquired words correctly and uses them far too often.
    Typically the pseudo insists on being 100%correct all of the time and bitches about 'the system'.

    Gawd.. that all sounds very familiar, almost like HEUK.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Ubuntu said....

    "Oh heaven forbid, not an un-professional with an opinion about something he has not studied. Hail all your degree holders, we will render our wits useless, tell us what we have to believe..."

    An opinion is not always the same as a fact.

    ReplyDelete
  15. An opinion is often not a fact, but what's your point?

    ReplyDelete
  16. "I believe the correct term for such a person is
    pseudo-intellectual."

    So do you only listen to professionals? In that case, I assume you send your children to school since the majority of education professionals consider this best?

    ReplyDelete
  17. "so do you only listen to professionals?"

    No...I gain much amusement from listening to pathetic amateurs making erroneous assumptions.

    ReplyDelete
  18. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  19. They would have gained more from a couple of hours spent researching the topics in the local library. Or, they could do what I do. When I want to know something about some specialised topic which touches upon home education; I ask the experts.

    I researched the 'limbic system' and 'Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers' by Dr Gabor Matte and Gordon Neufeld and guess what? It supports all of Imran Shah's talk.

    'All Im saying can be summed up in two words- trust children. Nothing could be more simple-or more difficult. Difficult, because to trust cildren we must trust ourselves-and most of us were taught as children that we could not be trusted' John Holt

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous said; "I researched the 'limbic system' and 'Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers' by Dr Gabor Matte and Gordon Neufeld and guess what? It supports all of Imran Shah's talk."

    You could be damning with faint praise, Anonymous. Here's an Amazon reviewer on the same book; 'non-rigorous, does not consider counter evidence'. A familiar phenomenon, in my experience. And the Mothering forum was less than complementary as well -

    http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/677398/ergh-gordon-neufeld

    Never having come across Gordon Neufeld I've just seen one of his videos and kept thinking I was watching a lay preacher. What are Mate and Neufeld actually saying?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Ok, now I've watched Mate who was a lot more persuasive, but the words "It's a lot more complicated than that" kept springing to mind.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Simon, Simon, Simon....if it is so important to you to follow experts advise, then I wonder why on earth you have educated your daughter at home? After all it ain't you who is the trained expert on teaching but teachers in school. I detect a little double-standard there......

    Ubuntu

    ReplyDelete
  23. There's something more than a little sad about a social worker trying to sound all knowledgable regarding cortisol,endocrinology and neurology.
    Hey, if I hadn't been a social worker I would have liked to have been a brain surgeon!
    There's something not quite right about the types that are prepared to sit and listen to him lecture about such subjects.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "There's something more than a little sad about a social worker trying to sound all knowledgable regarding cortisol,endocrinology and neurology."

    It's so sad when people feel that they and others should be confined to boxes and should not attempt to educate themselves. Maybe you think he's getting above himself? Maybe he should just send his children to school as there's no way anyone without teacher training could possibly know anything about teaching. For all you know, he could have taken a degree in the subject, but do you think it's impossible to learn about these subjects without being taught by an expert? If so, are you a home educator, because your views about learning seem incompatible with HE.

    ReplyDelete
  25. "For all you know, he could have taken a degree in the subject....."

    And who would have taught him in that BSc Neuroscience degree, if not an expert in the field?
    Actually, I think you'll find that Endocrinology and Neurology are seperate medical sciences and not a "subject".
    In order to practice in the field of medicine you are required by law to hold relevent medical practitioners quals and be licenced.
    I feel that such a lecture,delivered by someone without such a background is pretentious.
    I wonder who he feels he needs to impress.

    ReplyDelete
  26. I didn't really think that he had taken a degree. The point was, you don't know how he learnt what he learnt - how thorough is research was. He presumably has a degree which involves learning how to study and research so there's no reason to believe that he would not have learnt his subject of interest well. You probably didn't even hear him speak so have no idea how accurate he was.

    You appear to be saying that sounding knowledgeable about a subject and being willing to talk in public about it is pretentious and an attempt to impress. Something to be criticized for? You sound like the children who tease/bully other children who appear to enjoy lessons or do well at school. How many children end up failing educationally because of this type of negative attitude and peer pressure? Is it really an attitude an adult should encourage by modelling it publicly?

    ReplyDelete
  27. "In order to practice in the field of medicine you are required by law to hold relevent medical practitioners quals and be licenced."

    He practised endocrinology? What did he do? Diagnose someone with diabetes and prescribe insulin? Discussing ideas and theories related to endocrinology is not the same as practising medicine!

    ReplyDelete
  28. Oh dear, such negativity, abuse and hostility...
    It just goes to prove the point raised above, that you really can't voice an opinion contrary to the cult of home education.
    Was this lttl.org conference anything to do with the L.Ron Hubbard branch of homeschooling?

    ReplyDelete
  29. "It just goes to prove the point raised above, that you really can't voice an opinion contrary to the cult of home education."

    LOL! So it's OK to voice a contrary, derogatory and negative opinion against someone like Imran or a HE conference, but it's not OK for someone else to gently possible defences or suggestions for alternative and less negative ways to view the issue? Who's the one being negative, abusive and hostile here? Pot and kettle spring to mind...

    ReplyDelete
  30. "to gently possible defences"

    should have read:

    'to point out possible defences'

    ReplyDelete
  31. Lets hope those that endured Imran's pseudointellectual lecture about Endrocrinology and Neurology found it more coherent than your bigoted ramblings.

    ReplyDelete
  32. LOL Bigoted? Is this think of a random insult day?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Funny you didn't mention the following speaker, autonomous educator who also taught his kids (or was it just one he has? Not sure) how to read autonomously as well
    David Waynforth (I tried to paste a link, can't do it, oh well, David is a senior lecturer at University of East Anglia I believe. He is also a researcher and delivered a lecture on nutrition- guess what he said? Let kids be, let them eat what they want, they know best what they need

    ReplyDelete
  34. @ suzyg
    yes it's very complicated indeed, so why try and pretend we can be certain Imran is wrong?

    ReplyDelete