Every so often, somebody commenting on here will say something so fat-headed as to make me reel back in disbelief. Such a comment was made yesterday; I quote it above. Two contentions are regularly made about the informal learning of reading. One is that it does not handicap a child educationally if he or she learns to read much later than is usual in school. The other is that having once learnt to read, the child soon catches up with contemporaries who have been reading for seven or eight years. Both these assertions are counter-intuitive.
A child of twelve who only at that age begins to read, has of course been absorbing a huge amount of information in many other ways throughout his life. This comes from conversation, television, the Internet, real-life experiences and so on. This is of course also the case with the child who began to read a decade earlier at the age of two. However, in addition to all the information gathered by the same methods as the ’late’ reader, the child who learnt to read at two has had the advantage of being able to get information by means of another channel; that of the printed word. So as well as learning through conversation, television and the other methods we talked of above, the child who began to read at two has also spent ten years reading newspapers, books and magazines. One feels instinctively that this additional means of finding things out would give the early reader an educational edge on his illiterate peer, but we are assured that this is not the case. Why not?
When we are asked to accept a proposition which seems to run counter to common sense in this way, it is quite reasonable to ask for evidence which backs up the assertion being made. In this case there is none. Similarly, if one has two children of fourteen, one of whom has been practising the violin for twelve years, since the age of two and the other who only began playing eighteen months ago, one feels instinctively that all else being equal, the one who has been playing for a dozen years is likely to be more skilful. We are assured that this is not the case. Again, this is a strange claim and one which requires something other than people assuring us that it is true.
A few individual cases where this sort of thing may have happened do not really constitute any sort of evidence. The children concerned might be exceptionally intelligent and able to overcome the handicap of not receiving formal teaching in reading. What we need is a fairly large cohort of children, the development of most of whom confirms this hypothesis. It may be true that illiterate twelve year olds somehow gather as much information from the world around them as those who can read, but this is likely to be a compensation for a disadvantage which has been imposed upon them by the lack of teaching; much in the same way that the other senses of a blind person are sharpened to replace sight. It is suggested that this is actually a good thing for the child, but we are singularly lacking in any evidence to show that this is the case! Is a fourteen year-old boy who only began reading eighteen months ago really as good and fluent a reader as a child who began to read at two? It sounds improbable in the extreme, but if we can see a couple of hundred tests conducted on such children and compare them with tests upon a group of early readers, I am quite prepared to believe that it may be so. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and when claims such as this are being made which are in opposition to what most of us would regard as common sense, it is quite reasonable to ask why anybody should subscribe to the theories being offered.
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Interesting that you require evidence for counter-intuitive claims, butfor those made on the basis of common sense or instinctive feelings.
ReplyDeleteYou appear to be framing knowledge and skills solely in terms of quantity of factual information or number of hours of rehearsal, when actually there are other factors involved.
There is no guarantee that a child who has been reading newspapers since the age of three will have a better understanding of how the world works than a child who didn't learn to read until the age of 12, but who had had previously had in-depth conversations with a parent about political, economic and social issues. This is because most young children have very limited experience and as a consequence their understanding of adult reading material is limited.
Nor is a child who learns to play the violin at two necessarily a better player than a 14 year-old who started 18 months ago. A key phrase in your argument is 'all else being equal'. In child development, all else is rarely equal. That's the point of the parent being required to cause the child to receive an education suitable to the child's age, ability, aptitude and special educational needs.
One cannot dismiss anecdotal evidence solely because it's anecdotal - but if one is looking for more certainty about the claims made, all claims need to be subject to rigorous examination, not just those that are counter-intuitive.
The first paragraph should read:
ReplyDelete" Interesting that you require evidence for counter-intuitive claims, but not for those made on the basis of common sense or instinctive feelings."
'There is no guarantee that a child who has been reading newspapers since the age of three will have a better understanding of how the world works than a child who didn't learn to read until the age of 12, but who had had previously had in-depth conversations with a parent about political, economic and social issues. '
ReplyDeleteOf course not. I am assuming that both children have had conversations of this type and am struggling to see how the child who has also been reading the papers for years could not fail to be better informed.
Simon.
'Interesting that you require evidence for counter-intuitive claims, but not for those made on the basis of common sense or instinctive feelings.'
ReplyDeleteI did not say this at all. I said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A natural corollary of this is not that ordinary claims require no evidence at all! I am saying that ordinary claims require a certain amount of evidence and that when I am invited to believe something extradordinary on no evidence at all; my common sense rebels.
Simon.
'Nor is a child who learns to play the violin at two necessarily a better player than a 14 year-old who started 18 months ago.'
ReplyDeleteAlso true, but a child who had only started learning the violin eighteen months ago and was already a better player than one who had been practising for ten or twelve years would be an exceptional case indeed. This is my very point; that such exceptional cases are being put forward as the norm. This is the danger of anecdotal evidence, but I suspect, knowing your academic background, that you realise this fully as well as I do myself.
Simon.
Simon.
THe Homeschooling Research Notes blog reviews research on home ed as well as reviewing relevant academic and 'education-trade' books, with an eye to methodological critique and data quality.
ReplyDeleteInteresting stuff, and perhaps useful to you, Simon.
http://gaither.wordpress.com/
Simon said
ReplyDelete"I am assuming that both children have had conversations of this type and am struggling to see how the child who has also been reading the papers for years could not fail to be better informed."
What information would a child who could read between the ages of two and 12 be likely to access that a child between the ages of two and 12 couldn't - if both had supportive parents who discussed things with them or read books to them?
An eight, ten or 12 year-old who's a fluent reader might be able to read the words of a newspaper, but their understanding of what they read is likely to be limited, and they are unlikely to be better informed than a 12 year-old non-reader whose parent regularly discusses the tv news with them or regularly reads books to them.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"One is that it does not handicap a child educationally if he or she learns to read much later than is usual in school. The other is that having once learnt to read, the child soon catches up with contemporaries who have been reading for seven or eight years. Both these assertions are counter-intuitive."
They don't seem counter-intuitive to me, at least in the home education situation. Educationally a non-reading child can learn more, at greater depth and at a higher level, if an adult reads to the child and helps them with any new words or concepts than a reading child reading a text aimed at their current reading level. As to speed of learning, in my experience I became much better at organising and learning material as I grew older, so it seems likely that learning a skill (such as reading) would be quicker and easier for an older child who purposely and positively sets out to gain the skill than a younger child who is resistant or uninterested. This turned out to be true for my late readers who learnt to read far faster than their cousins who resisted reading at the 'correct' age at school. Incidentally, our late readers actually read regularly for pleasure unlike their cousins, another possible advantage of not forcing the issue.
Simon wrote,
"Similarly, if one has two children of fourteen, one of whom has been practising the violin for twelve years, since the age of two and the other who only began playing eighteen months ago, one feels instinctively that all else being equal, the one who has been playing for a dozen years is likely to be more skilful."
Probably (though not necessarily), but after a couple more years I doubt the difference would be significant. It might also be the case that the older child might put in say 3 hours reading per day compared to the early readers 1 hour. At that rate, it wouldn't take long to reach an equivalent overall number of reading hours, especially when the increased learning skills of an older child are factored in. In our experience the late reading children read far more than the early reading children for a few years at least and all reached an adult reading level by 16 according to reading tests.
Simon wrote,
"The children concerned might be exceptionally intelligent and able to overcome the handicap of not receiving formal teaching in reading."
My late readers had more formal instruction than the early readers who had none and learnt through play and day-to-day life. The late readers tended more towards phonics and worked through reading instruction books with their parents. Interestingly (and expensively) they chose different courses.
I wrote,
ReplyDelete"As to speed of learning, in my experience I became much better at organising and learning material as I grew older, so it seems likely that learning a skill (such as reading) would be quicker and easier for an older child who purposely and positively sets out to gain the skill than a younger child who is resistant or uninterested."
Just to add to this. If research were to be carried out, I think the reading skills of late reading home educated children (who were free to learn to read whenever they wanted to) would need to be compared to the reading skills of reluctant/resistant normal age readers in order to compare like with like. I think children who are keen to learn to read when young are likely to learn to read at the normal age wherever they are and with much less 'help' than resistant children.
'What information would a child who could read between the ages of two and 12 be likely to access that a child between the ages of two and 12 couldn't - if both had supportive parents who discussed things with them or read books to them?'
ReplyDeleteIt's the difference between being an independent learner and relying upon others to filter out information for you and present it in a certain way. I dare say my wife would be prepared to read the Economist and New Scientist for me and then pass on the bits she felt might be useful for me to know. I prefer to make my own choices on this! Reading a newspaper or magazine exposes us to a wide range of information about all sorts of topics. Why you think that might be an undesirable thing for a child, I cannot imagine. It is what I think of as freeing a child from the prejudices of her parents and allowing her to explore the intellectual world by herself.
Simon.
' It might also be the case that the older child might put in say 3 hours reading per day compared to the early readers 1 hour. '
ReplyDeleteI have a suspicion that a child who started reading at the age of two is more likely to spend three hours a day reading at the age of fourteen, rather than one who only learnt the skill a year of two earlier. We would need to look at a number of children to see if this is true.
Simon.
' I think children who are keen to learn to read when young are likely to learn to read at the normal age wherever they are and with much less 'help' than resistant children.'
ReplyDeleteAn interesting idea. What makes you think this?
Simon.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"I have a suspicion that a child who started reading at the age of two is more likely to spend three hours a day reading at the age of fourteen, rather than one who only learnt the skill a year of two earlier."
Why do you think this? Haven't you had the experience of obsessing with a new skill and spending as much time as possible on it? Maybe that's why some families choose autonomous education and others don't; if they see that their child learns best by submerging themselves intensively in a new subject or skill?
Simon wrote (about children who want to learn to read at a young age learning more eaily than resistant children),
"An interesting idea. What makes you think this?"
Experience of seeing this in action in several families, both home educators and school users and in myself. How would resistance not affect how well or quickly a child learns something? Don't you learn things more efficiently and easily if you are really interested in it? Personally I struggle to learn things I've been told to learn but am uninterested in. I can and do learn in this situation, but it takes longer and I don't think I learn it as thoroughly. Research seems to show that intrinsic motivation improves learning when compared to extrinsic motivation.
A quote from 'Unschooling' Stresses Curiosity More Than TraditionaI Academic, Education Week, 20.12.2006 relevant to previous discussions about 'teaching' or 'not teaching' and intrinsic v extrinsic motivation;
ReplyDelete"Jane Powell, a Bowie, Md., mother of four children who practices unschooling, said she never taught her oldest son, now 9, to read. He learned how to read by playing video games, she said. "As he Was playing his games, he was asking me to read, so I was reading what he needed. Then he was asking me less and less frequently, and then it stopped. … He learned to read," she said. "I didn't teach him. I didn't prod him. I didn't give him any helpful shoves in the appropriate direction. He learned to read when he was ready.""
An interested description of a child learning to read 'by themselves'. But of course, it wasn't by himself. If his mother had not spent all that time reading the text for him, I doubt he would have learnt to read and I'm sure he had many other useful exposures to language and text. He probably learnt to read by following the text as his mother read to him, much as many children learn from books.
"When we are asked to accept a proposition which seems to run counter to common sense in this way, it is quite reasonable to ask for evidence which backs up the assertion being made. In this case there is none."
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, Simon, no-one is asking you to accept any propositions. You are free to home educate your way, as is everyone else. When I was home educating there was no research that I was aware of in the UK related specifically to HE, although of course there was plenty on the subject of learning in general. I didn't feel the lack. I had plenty of home educating friends to compare notes with, and most importantly I had the evidence of my own children, who were quite obviously learning, and enthusiastic about doing so. The whole point was to give them an education that was tailored to their individual needs; how would research into a "large cohort" of other home educated children have helped?
By the way, I'm the one who asked the original question. As I expected, it sparked off an interesting discussion. It was perhaps disingenuous, but I think fat-headed is going a bit too far.
'It was perhaps disingenuous, but I think fat-headed is going a bit too far.'
ReplyDeleteAnd you are of course quite right. I am an irritable person and sometimes I do let my words cary me a little too far. Sorry.
Simon.
'The thing is, Simon, no-one is asking you to accept any propositions. You are free to home educate your way, as is everyone else.'
ReplyDeleteThe problem being that when a respected academic like Alan Thomas says:
‘Not only does late reading at home appear to hold no knock on educational disadvantage but it also seems to have no long-term consequences for reading ability’
we are entitled to ask what the grounds are for his making such a statement. When this is contained in a popular book which somebody considering home edcuation might buy, I think it right to draw attention to the paucity of evidence supporting Thomas' position.
Simon.
Ooh, are you going to go through all the 'popular books that people might buy?' and look for evidence for every claim? If so, I can't wait to see you get to the diet books and the self help tomes.
ReplyDeleteI 'm not convinced that anyone has ever bought a book about Home Ed and followed it to the letter, any more than we do any other sort of 'how-to' book. Most of us graze through them, picking the bits that strike a chord with us and either laughing or growling about the other bits according to our moods and natures.
One of the best things about HE is that there's no compromise needed even for the most structured of the structured. You try an approach that seems right for a particular child. If it works, you thank Heavens. If not, you try something else. You can afford not to settle for 'that'll do' because you only have one child to worry about. (Even those in large families can use different materials and approaches with different children in a way that a teacher can't, because it's a lot easier to buy a second hand copy of a book and sell it on E-bay if it doesn't work than commit yourself to 30 copies. Or, all too likely these days, no books at all because it's all been downloaded and photocopied until it's barely legible.)
"I dare say my wife would be prepared to read the Economist and New Scientist for me and then pass on the bits she felt might be useful for me to know."
ReplyDeleteWhat a strange idea. That isn't how it works in our home, and I'm not sure why you would think it would in many homes. The children choose whatever books or magazines they want from shops or libraries and then tell us what to read. If they find a particular article uninteresting they tell us to move on and we do. Often we might just read the first line or so of a few articles before they find one they want to know more about, just as an independent reader might.
"I'm not convinced that anyone has ever bought a book about Home Ed and followed it to the letter, any more than we do any other sort of 'how-to' book."
ReplyDeleteWell, yes. As an ex-teacher myself, I'm always struck by how many teachers become autonomous home educators. Not exactly slavishly following the rule book!
'If they find a particular article uninteresting they tell us to move on and we do. Often we might just read the first line or so of a few articles before they find one they want to know more about,'
ReplyDeleteGoodness, thankfully, my children learned to read earlyish (4). I could not have coped with being at their beck and call all day every time they wanted to have something read to them. I loved reading aloud to my kids and we did it for about an hour or so a day anyway, but the idea of having to stop what I was doing to read to them because they couldn't, for 10 years of their childhood or more) is not a happy thought for me. I had reading and learning of my own I wanted to do during the day. I'm so glad my children were able to read (and write) their own stuff whenever they wanted to.
"I could not have coped with being at their beck and call all day every time they wanted to have something read to them."
ReplyDeleteNot sure that's what the OP meant. They didn't say anything about being at their beck and call all day. My children were late readers as well and I certainly wasn't. But I think if you're home educating you have to expect to be engaged in their education, don't you? Particularly when they're young. Even if mine had been reading at 4, I'd have been surprised if my son had been able to read and understand everything he wanted to know about astronomy, for example.
"I loved reading aloud to my kids and we did it for about an hour or so a day anyway, but the idea of having to stop what I was doing to read to them because they couldn't, for 10 years of their childhood or more) is not a happy thought for me."
ReplyDeleteI spent about the same amount of time helping my early reader learn as I did my late reader, they just needed help with different things. If I didn't want to spend time helping my children I'd have sent them to school, it's so much easier. Makes a change though. Autonomous educators are more often accused of being lazy home educators on this blog, now I'm accused of doing too much!
Simon said:
ReplyDelete"Reading a newspaper or magazine exposes us to a wide range of information about all sorts of topics. Why you think that might be an undesirable thing for a child, I cannot imagine. It is what I think of as freeing a child from the prejudices of her parents and allowing her to explore the intellectual world by herself."
I don't think I said reading newspapers and magazines was undesirable - I just questioned the value of it for a young child. Because of the child's lack of experience and understanding, a six year old reading a newspaper alone wouldn't get so much out of it as a 14 year-old reading it alone. If exploring 'the intellectual world' most under-12s would need to discuss what they had read with an adult in order to ensure that they had a good understanding of the material - in other words being able to read it for themselves conveys little advantage over a non-reader in terms of acquisition of knowledge and understanding.
'Autonomous educators are more often accused of being lazy home educators on this blog now I'm accused of doing too much!'
ReplyDeleteI haven't accused anyone of anything. I simply said that I would not have enjoyed the frequency of interruptions which having non-readers in my home for a decade or more would have involved.
I loved home educating. I enjoyed my children's company. Implying I should have sent them to school is a little harsh and a strange reaction to my comment.
I wasn't criticising anyone else's HE style. I was saying how it would not have suited us. My kids thrived on the independent reading and writing they were able to do from an early age and I found it beneficial too.
I'm glad I taught them to read and write at that age. I'm sure you are glad about the way you HE'd. This isn't a competition.
'Even if mine had been reading at 4, I'd have been surprised if my son had been able to read and understand everything he wanted to know about astronomy, for example.'
ReplyDeleteTrue. For a large proportion of our day together I was engaged in discussion with my children, based on the things they had been reading about or what we'd been finding out about while we were out and about.
But we also has times of quiet when we all read, sometimes at the same time, in the same room. It was bliss! Sometimes, we'd all be writing something at the same time too. Then we'd chat about what we'd been reading or writing. I treasured those periods in the day.
I loved the way we HE'd and am very glad they learned to read and write early on.
"I simply said that I would not have enjoyed the frequency of interruptions which having non-readers in my home for a decade or more would have involved."
ReplyDeleteHow can it be an interruption if you are already with the child?
"Implying I should have sent them to school is a little harsh and a strange reaction to my comment."
I didn't mention you, I was talking about myself, as you say we all choose what suits our own family.
"I wasn't criticising anyone else's HE style. I was saying how it would not have suited us. My kids thrived on the independent reading and writing they were able to do from an early age and I found it beneficial too."
As did my early reader. My late readers were not obviously not interested since they had the same opportunities to learn at the early reader and the same opportunities were available when they did choose to learn.
"I'm glad I taught them to read and write at that age. I'm sure you are glad about the way you HE'd. This isn't a competition. "
Sure, and I was just giving my point of view, just as you did. It certainly wasn't intended as a criticism of your style, just trying to understand how it can be an interruption if you are already with the child?
"But we also has times of quiet when we all read, sometimes at the same time, in the same room. It was bliss!"
We would have the equivalent but the non-readers were usually engaged in more practical activities or play. Again, not a criticism, just trying to understand why you think a household with non-reading children would make such a difference?
One of the things I think meant a lot to my children was the private worlds of their independent reading. When son was six he read himself a trilogy of books in the Edge Chronicles series. I read him most of the other books in that series but he really enjoyed having some that were his alone. Of course, you could get that from an audio book but it's not quite the same.
ReplyDeleteYes, Allie. My son read all the Redwall books to himself about age 8-10. We had a habit of describing our private reading to each other at dinner. We'd all get excited about our own reading and would want to read aloud particular bits that we'd enjoyed or which had moved us to the whole family. It was one of the most pleasurable elements of their childhoods and our family life at that time.
ReplyDeleteBoth of our late readers seemed more interested in inventing their own stories than reading something written for them by an adult. They moved on to enjoying other people's stories when they learnt to read and we had similar experiences but at an older age (and of course, with our early readers when younger). We loved hearing their invented stories when younger and missed them when they reduced as they started reading other people's work.
ReplyDelete' We loved hearing their invented stories when younger and missed them when they reduced as they started reading other people's work.'
ReplyDeleteThey reduced? My kids imagination was even more fired up and they invented and then wrote more and more of their own stuff. Reading seemed to open doors of imagination for them, not close them. Even now as adults, they both still write stories and songs.
We're all different, aren't we? :-)
LOL, I didn't mean it reduced their imagination, just the amount of time they have available for their own stories. When they started reading for 2-3 hours a day it was inevitable. Ours also write stories, one is currently writing a children's story that they're going to try and get published (should be an interesting experience). Maybe we're not as different as we seem? :-)
ReplyDeleteI think there's something in Allie's use of the word 'private'.
ReplyDeleteIt reminds me a bit of Charlotte Mason's philosophy of encouraging children to have their own 'relationship' with the world (literature, music, art, the beauty of the natural world etc) without the mediator of a teacher or parent being in the way.
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