A well known phenomenon in schools is the drop in knowledge and skills that typically occurs during the long summer holiday. This has a profound effect on the education of children at school and is why many feel that it would be a better scheme to have four terms in the academic year, separated by holidays of equal length. What happens in effect is that when children do not attend school for six or seven weeks, they forget pretty much everything that they were taught in the previous term. The practical consequence is that when children come back to school in September, a lot of them have lost much of what they learned since Easter and so the autumn term is taken up with repeating a lot of stuff that was done in May and June. If this happens after six weeks of doing nothing much academically, just imagine the effect on the average child of spending nine or ten months like that!
Years nine and ten are popular times for deregistering children from school and educating them at home. Many parents who take this step don’t really know what they should do next and often join internet forums and local home educating groups for advice. I dare say that some readers will know what advice they are offered when they complain that their children are disaffected and will not get up in the morning and study maths, English and so on? That’s right, they are frequently advised to back off and spend some time ’deschooling’. For those unfamiliar with this expression, it is the process of ’allowing the toxicity of school to leach out of the child’s system’. Of course, to normal people, this sounds quite mad, but it is a recognised treatment among some home educators. The idea is to allow the child just to loll about, doing exactly what he wishes and not bothering him at all about schoolwork. The generally recommended length of time is one month of deschooling for every year that the child has been at school
I am sure that readers will at once see the nature of the problem here. If children regress academically after six weeks holiday, what is likely to be the effect of the nine or ten months holiday suggested by certain home educators? This is especially bad news for those in years nine or ten whoc are embarking upon intensive study for GCSEs. Taking the best part of a year off at this stage practically guarantees failure.
This sort of thing is very worrying for some local authorities when teenagers are withdrawn from school. It marks the end, in many cases, of any hope of formal qualifications for the children concerned, to say nothing of any progression into further or higher education. One thing which puzzles me is where this whole notion of deschooling for one month for each year of school comes from. Why a month? Why not a week or two months? Does anybody know anything about this business, for example the rationale behind it and how the figure of a month for a year was arrived at?
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Ugh, just the word 'deschooling' makes me shudder - biggest mistake we ever made, although my children were quite a bit younger.
ReplyDeleteI also do not understand its origins or its logic.
'De schooling'
DeleteAs I recall it's a bit of jargon invented by EO and has gained popularity through the online home ed gurus.
They needed something that sounded like 'de programming'.
Have you never heard of the book Deschooling Society? (1971) The word wasn't invented by EO.
DeleteProbably got it on the shelf somewhere...it's not good writing, hardly riveting and acutely outdated.
DeleteIt has a rrecognisable Marxist bias with extreme Socialist overtones and was one of the revered pamphlets that the council of EO has converted into unquestionable EO dogma and propaganda.
So, no it wasn't actually invented by EO but they were more than happy to embrace the term and pretend that they had.
You don't half talk some rubbish!
Deleteyou have no understanding of either the book or the author. It's clear that you have no understanding of EO or it's history, and blissfully unaware of the Marxist theory that is interwoven into HE politics.
Delete'biggest mistake we ever made, although my children were quite a bit younger. '
ReplyDeleteAny chance of your telling us a bit about it?
I removed my children and for the next 6mth 'de-schooled'. This involved no forced learning. Instead we visited libraries, I bought interesting toys (science museum stuff, etc) purchased DVDs, recorded documentaries on sky... lots of 'strewing' took place.
DeleteWhat happened was children who didnt take interest in these things, didnt choose to use the resources and didnt choose to something better instead. Instead they chose cartoons, staying in bed, playing in the garden. I was told to leave it longer but I got fed up of waiting, after all I had waited the appropriate time (1mth per yr of compulsory schooling should be 5mths of 'de-schooling') and there was no evidence of improvement.
Getting back to learning took nearly a whole year of resistance and difficulty before they settled into a flexible routine.
Id never do it again, and I wish new home educators were told deschooling was optional!!!
Why wouldn't you know it was optional?
DeleteBecause 'de schooling' has become a deeply entrenched myth within HE dogma, rhetoric and propaganda. De Schooling- a manditory requirement that must be followed if your schooled child is to be freed from the mental slavery of evil institutionalised indoctrination by a cruel society.
DeleteThey even prescribe a set timescale....since when?
In other words it's the bollocks they use to instill a culture of fear, and ensure dependence on the likes of EO and MF-W.
Oh grow up and use the brain you were given. You are responsible for your own actions, you don't have to do as you're told by others. Some people seem to need to find someone else to blame for all their woes. If you can't ignore a minor organization like EO there's not much hope for you, to be honest.
DeleteBut plenty of home educators don't ignore EO or HE-UK.
DeleteWhich is their free choice, of course. I listen to much if what others say and take the bits I like and ignore the rest. As I say, we all have our own minds and are responsible for out own choices.
DeleteYou should explain that to the TCSers and the AErs, the religious and the weirdos.
DeleteNot everyone needs to be lectured by the likes of MF_W about coercion and autonomy. Some people don't feel the need to subscribe to ACE.
Not everyone appreciates long rambling conspiracy theories from Neil Taylor.
I have never thought it likely that the de-school plan was sensible for everyone. But what I have observed is that some people have been through a very stressful time prior to de-registering their children and really need to take some time to calm down a bit and work out a way forward. Sometimes children need to recover from bullying or relationships between parents and child need to be repaired. In situations like that I think it can probably be valuable to take time to let go the stresses of school and the things that remind parent and child of those stresses.
ReplyDeleteSimon wrote,
ReplyDelete"The practical consequence is that when children come back to school in September, a lot of them have lost much of what they learned since Easter and so the autumn term is taken up with repeating a lot of stuff that was done in May and June."
This appears to depend on who is making the claim.
"Nottingham teacher Tom Unterrainer told delegates at the NUT annual conference: "We've looked for rigorous academic research which points to the fact that learning loss takes place. There is none.
"But there's plenty of evidence, plenty of empirical evidence, real world evidence out there, around the world, to show that school holiday length and the lengths of teachers' holidays and the length of time that students and young people are out of school has no verifiable impact on their outcomes. It's a nonsense.""
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17663896
Have you managed to find the research?
This blog makes a good point:
Delete"Michael Gove has said he supports cutting the Summer holiday. The man who destroyed the educational chances of a generation now wants to strip any last remaining joy from their childhood as well. He claims that children suffer ‘learning loss’, during the six week break. As if working class children are too stupid to have a holiday. Most private schools, like the one Gove went to, have ten week Summer breaks. The double standard is as clear as ever."
http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/tag/school-holidays/
Ignore my question about research. I've found lots from America that appears to suggest that a Year Round Education calendar improves results. However, teachers here say that the systems in the two countries are too different for the research to be transferable. Then I found a report on the NFER web site that suggests the opposite of the older research I found - that there is no advantage to the YRE system in the US.
Delete"The bulk of the research in this field relies on analysis of test data, comparing the progress/outcomes of students who have attended schools with different calendar arrangements. Where such comparisons have been carried out no statistically significant difference is observable.
For example, a particularly large-scale project was carried out by Kneese (2000a). This was a retrospective study of achievement data of students in the USA using end of grade (EOG) test scores and archival records. She compared the performance in English and mathematics for approximately 28,000 students in grades 4 to 8 (equivalent to years 5 to 9 in England), enrolled in schools with either a traditional or an alternative calendar. The two groups from different school types were matched as closely as possible on location within the same district, similar parental education levels and socio-economic status (SES). The analysis revealed no statistically significant differences between the two groups."
Make of that what you will...
NFER report link, http://www.nfer.ac.uk/nfer/publications/LGS01/LGS01.pdf
DeleteWhat with so many people claiming to have forgotten everything they learnt at school a year or two after leaving, it does make one wonder what the point is. Maybe they should try autonomous education in schools? I know I remember far more if I've chosen to learn something as opposed to being told to learn it.
ReplyDelete'This is especially bad news for those in years nine or ten whoc are embarking upon intensive study for GCSEs. Taking the best part of a year off at this stage practically guarantees failure.'
ReplyDeleteWell....not according to some who post retrospective emails at the HE Exams list. Quite often, people talk about that period of deschooling as being significant in terms of overcoming the disaffection towards learning that existed when the child was at school. Thus revived, the child was then able to achieve good grades at GCSE.
However, I imagine that the effects vary depending, as Allie says, on the reasons for leaving school in the first place.
I am interested in your claim that deschooling 'worrys' (Surely it's 'worries'?) LA's. What evidence do you have for this? I'm sure that you are right that some LA's might have concerns, but I'd like to see the evidence that they do. Or are you just saying that 'LA's must be concerned because I am'.
Like you, I am dubious that the advice is suitable for all and would also like to understand how the one month rule arose.
Old Mum
You seem to spend a lot of time being informed by home ed online lists.
DeleteWhat an odd comment.
ReplyDeleteI've been a home educator for a couple of decades and am now only on one local list and the HE Exam list. I pick up messages once a day spending a total of 5 minutes each there most days. In years past, I spent more time, but have no need to any longer.
And you?
Old Mum
Five minutes on one list..and yet you feel the need to cite HE lists as reliable information.
DeleteYou're being a little silly now. I've been a member of the HE list (one of the more reliable HE internet lists, I've found) for six years and, as I explained, I tend to check it daily.
DeleteOf course, internet lists are not necessarily reliable sources of information. Most HE ones tend to be populated with significant numbers of ignorant people who like to take potshots at people they don't know for their own weird pleasure. This is why I avoid all but the most sensible of them. It seems they can't be avoided here either.
I've not tried to present myself as an expert. I've simply offered anecdotal evidence which contrasts with some other anecdotal evidence. My personal experience was of not needing 'deschooling'.
Old Mum
I left out 'exams' after HE in the second sentence which should read, 'I've been a member of the HEexams list'.
DeleteOld Mum
There are virtually no reliable internet HE lists. It's the same people pushing the same dogma on all of them...some more religious and others clearly confused regarding child development.
DeleteSince you are clearly an expert in everything, why not start your own list instead of spending all your time complaining about the efforts of every one else?
DeleteSince you have spent so much time on those lists you might have realised just how pointless they were.
DeleteThat people are being drawn into a dependance culture which revolves around deliberate disinformation, misinformation and misinterpretation of outdated theories and models of child development. Often those lists are being used by overzealous adherents to fringe political beliefs and religions.
DeleteOften there are recognisable and identifiable cultlike elements of behaviour and cultspeak being exchanged.
A seriously depressing HE hierarchy has developed, continues and dominance fought over on an all too regular basis.
"Since you have spent so much time on those lists you might have realised just how pointless they were."
DeleteSo your all knowingness extends to how much time I spend on which lists? Wow, you're godlike in your knowledge and insight. Except, I've read one list occasionally, so maybe you psychic signals have got a bit confused or crossed?
Not godlike, I've read your replies on other topics.
DeleteThey're very revealing...just like the replies you've made above.
Delete'Nottingham teacher Tom Unterrainer told delegates at the NUT annual conference: "We've looked for rigorous academic research which points to the fact that learning loss takes place. There is none.'
ReplyDeleteI should have mentioned that teachers are fighting furiously against plans to reduce the length of the summer holidays. One has to ask oneself whether their objections are wholly disinterested or if perhaps they have motives of their own for this opposition...
Well yes, that much is obvious since I read the whole article. But that doesn't explain the NFER report.
Delete'(Surely it's 'worries'?)'
ReplyDeleteWhat a mercy that I am by no means the most pedantic individual here. You are of course perfectly correct Old Mum.
' Or are you just saying that 'LA's must be concerned because I am''
No, although I think it a crazy idea. Based on conversations with local authority officers dealing with home education, truancy and CME in the London boroughs of Hackney, Tower Hamlets and Waltham Forest. Also mentioned to me by one of the people from Essex who came to check up on my daughter's education.
Not really pedantic. I make enough mistakes of my own.
ReplyDeleteYou are basing your idea, that LA's are worried, on your personal experiences. I've heard from two different LA officers that they think it's a good idea. (Please don't jump to the conclusion that I personally 'deschooled' my own children. I didn't.)
The point I'm making is that different LA's, and different officers within the same LA, may disagree on that the need for, or advisability of, deschooling. I feel that the jury is still out, actually. Until some proper research is done.
Old Mum
'I feel that the jury is still out, actually. Until some proper research is done.'
ReplyDeleteI think that that is perfectly reasonable. It is why I asked if anybody knew of the research which underpinned the whole notion, including the one month for every year at school idea.
"Does anybody know anything about this business, for example the rationale behind it and how the figure of a month for a year was arrived at?"
ReplyDeleteI think it stemmed originally from parents noticing that the longer a child had been institutionalised, the longer they needed to recover and the month-per-year suggestion developed as a rule of thumb (people so often seem to want clear guidelines). But it is usually also said that the time will vary from child to child. The oldest mention I've seen on the web is from August 1999 on an American unschooling email list, but I've also seen it mentioned on Australian, Canadian and New Zealand web sites as well as UK sites.
I remember it being talked about on the lists years ago, but the idea seemed to grow out of advice to individuals removing their children after having a rough time in school, who were refusing to do much at home and not interested in learning anything. What started as a "don't worry just yet - they need a bit of time to break out of their negative attitude to anything to do with learning and in time will start to find some things interesting again." to giving that time a label. Then as people started to talk about their own experiences with children who had left school with no joy in learning, the "how long does it take?" question arose.
DeleteIt seems to have now taken on the status of a known fact that children need one month for every year in school, but that comes from speculation from a few people discussing how long their children took to become engaged in learning. It's based on very little.
I think there is a very different challenge for people whose children have left school with a feeling that they aren't good at much, and that learning is boring or difficult, and those first few months of education at home can be really stressful as the parent may have all kinds of plans and the child just doesn't want to know. A bit of time having some fun together, discovering what actually is fun and interesting and useful can be really helpful. I'd hate to see enforced periods of TV and computer games prescribed, though.
Another fairly Old Mum.
"'I feel that the jury is still out, actually. Until some proper research is done.'
ReplyDeleteI think that that is perfectly reasonable. It is why I asked if anybody knew of the research which underpinned the whole notion, including the one month for every year at school idea."
But how would you measure the level of institutionalisation and the return of a love of learning?
No one in the real world gives to hoots about some home educators doing nothing all day or what LAs think about it. mind you some LA do nothing all day to! no one care. Peopel are only intersted in the real worl world to what goes on in schools and if any more money can be spent on there local school!
ReplyDeleteDuring all of that time spent 'home educating' you might have picked up some of the basics of grammar and spelling.
DeleteWhat did you do all day?
I think it's true that the vast majority of people don't really care what goes on with home elders, but this is a home edders blog, so quite appropriate to discuss it.
ReplyDeleteplay chess all day and table tennis lol
ReplyDeleteGizzie says-I think it's true that the vast majority of people don't really care what goes on with home elders,
ReplyDeleteim glad you agree Gizzie that is why nothing will ever be done to parents who home educate such as crazy old Badman ideas of incereasec montoring becuase the public dont care if a few people want to do this there want any spare money spent on there local school and the public do not really care if a few kids are abused at home or at school its all tlak and no action as there turn on the TV and forget
'play chess all day and table tennis lol'
ReplyDeleteSomebody seems to be copying the Polgars...
It is a sociological term fashioned by Ivan illicit in the seventies. I think if you are going to replicate a school system at home then deschooling is detrimental as imposed timekeeping, expectations of achievement etc. are going to continue. However, if you wish to remove or choose not to send your children to school in order for them to grow as individuals and be free to follow their own interests then it is necessary in order for the family adjust.
ReplyDeleteI do like the idea of Ivan Illicit - he sounds like a villain in a children's tv show. A sort of sociological version of Robbie Rotten from Lazytown.
Deleteyou really belive that all we did was play chess and table tennis all day webb?
ReplyDeleteif anything very little chess has been played by Peter and he often turns down chances to play chess much to the amazement of those who ask him to play! he only playe i think 5 games this year which many would say is way to little! i know of juniors playing 70 plus games a year!
dont belive all that you read about Peter!
Illich ....I apologise for my spell check.
ReplyDeleteyou really belive that all we did was play chess and table tennis all day webb?
ReplyDeleteif anything very little chess has been played by Peter and he often turns down chances to play chess much to the amazement of those who ask him to play
Is this because he is now old enough to make his own mind up?
NO you fool Peter not played much chess for many many years! I can asure oyu he had his own mind for many many years and makes his own mind up about issues and very strongly to he holds views! He plays very little due to the fact he likes a nice place to play not some crap venue many chess events the venue are not good he does not like playing at weekend as he likes to meet up with mates most chess events are at weekend!
ReplyDeleteits alway funny whne some chess person says can you play for us Peter and he says no thx!
you have no idea what you are talking about if uou knew Peter you understand very few adults take the time to get to know him! as there tend to belive what some fool has written about him such as Webb!
The fool that has written about Peter the most...is you.
DeleteSo it would be fairer to say that he has lost interest?
ReplyDeleteNo Peter will only play chess if he happy with the conditions ie is the playing hall nice if i stay over will it be in a decent bed hotel not some dump! which many venues can be! and is the chess organizers kind helpful.
ReplyDeletea error people make is that becuse Peter left school over chess there thought all he ever does is chess this was incorect many chess organizers thought this so where always amazed when he said no thx i dont want to play this weekend! one said but you play chess all day and Peter told him No i dont your wrong but he still could not belive it!
Peter has his own mind do not belive what old Webb writes about him Peter has many intersts in life.
It appears that the chess organisers have very little understanding of the needs of a child.
Delete'You (can?) play chess all day'.
You could play on a playstation all day too...but it certainly wouldn't be a healthy persuit.
yes not all chess organisers understand the needs of a child you be amazed as to what goes on at some chess events! and the poor conditions of some venues.
ReplyDeleteThat chess organiser really thought that all Peter did was play chess all day every day just like Webb does!
if you read something in a paper people think its true such as boy leaves school to play chess all day! what we always said to any one who asked was yes Peter will spend some time in the week playing chess but im afraid not every day! there did not like that quote!
'if I stay over it will be in some decent bed hotel not some dump'
ReplyDelete'you be amazed as to what goes on at some chess events!'
'and the poor conditions at some venues'
So, you get to travel around and stay in comfortable hotels.. all from your child playing chess.
It's pretty obvious that you trained him intensively by using chess software packages and putting the hours in.
Then he's obviously had to endure very long hours of 'many many' tournaments in conditions that he wasn't happy with. Organised by people who gave little or no thought to child welfare.
You've described something that's recognisably exploitative.
Maybe you should report the chess world to social services? And what about tennis, golf, dance, horse riding competitions, music and all the other children's events and competitions that go on around the country and world? Gosh, you are going to be busy on that phone if you don't want all those exploited children on your conscience.
DeletePushy parents...you're very well known to be exploitative.
DeleteThey're your kids and they're your problem.
No we only get to stay in a nice hotel if we pay for it out of our own money! no one given us anthing towards Peter chess of course if you know of some one who will do let us know?
ReplyDeletePeter uses chess books not software which we agian buy out of our own money.
Peter i repeat does not play loads of tournments i say about 3 a year this year it will only be 2,
I know of childre nwho play every weekend not for us.
Chess organiser dont ask Peter to play as there know the answe in adavanc which is NO thx!
no point phoning social service as there would not do anything what could there do?
the worst place i seen for a chess event was i na school in london the palce was a dump and kids would be attending the school on the monday i shut the place down! doubt SS would do that?
We steped in to protect Peter and he will only play in events that are right for him
Peter know his own mind and isa very happy young man
you have no idea what you are talking about.
I honstly couldn't trust one word that you tell us. Often it's very angry and confused. Mostly it looks like expedient lies.
DeleteWe can only go by the lies that you tell.
DeleteAnd they far outweigh any truths that you attempt to convey.
DeleteIt might help if you could remember what you've written previously.
'Peter has his own mind do not belive what old Webb writes about him Peter has many intersts in life.'
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that I have said about your son is to quote what you said; 'play chess all day and table tennis lol' I have no idea whether this is true or not.
it was a joke Webb about him playing chess and table tennis all day
ReplyDeleteNo...it wasn't.
ReplyDelete"No...it wasn't."
DeleteThe psychic strikes again!
Of course I'm not psychic...just astute.
ReplyDeleteYou don't need to be psychic to find huge contradictions in everything Peter Williams attempts to write.
ReplyDeleteDeschooling. I stupidly listened to those who espoused this theory, wrongly believing that because they had more experience home educating than me they knew best. I regret listening. Now my eldest is quite behind academically, and I really have to push him hard in the hope he'll get at least some qualifications.
ReplyDeleteI am certainly not making the same mistake with my next child. He does some formal studying every day. It may work for some, but it can be a mistake for others; and it is very hard to rectify later once a child has got used to not studying consistently.
'Deschooling. I stupidly listened to those who espoused this theory, wrongly believing that because they had more experience home educating than me they knew best. I regret listening. Now my eldest is quite behind academically, and I really have to push him hard in the hope he'll get at least some qualifications.'
ReplyDeleteSadly, this is not all that uncommon with the deschooling business. It sounds plausible, but by the time that paretns realise that it is a mistake, their child has fallen behind a long way.
"Now my eldest is quite behind academically, and I really have to push him hard in the hope he'll get at least some qualifications."
ReplyDeleteMust admit to having had similar concerns myself when my 12 year old was still not reading fluently, but in hindsight I need not have worried. They passing college courses with flying colours and are looking forward to university, all without pushing. Though I wouldn't claim that this is going to happen for all children, all I can do is describe our experience and the experiences of many of our children's friends.
I suspect though that if a parent has oxbridge or similar ambitions they may need to push unless that's what the child wants themselves and they have academic interests, but this was not been the case for our children.
'if a parent has oxbridge or similar ambitions they may need to push unless'
ReplyDeleteCoded reference to self!
You don't need to be psychic to find huge contradictions in everything Peter Williams attempts to write.
ReplyDeletethat is horse crap come round here and say that
that is horse crap come round here and say that
ReplyDeleteWhy does Mr Williams want people he disagrees with to go round and reapeat things?
Because he's an aggressive imbecile, that should never have been allowed to home educate.
ReplyDeletebut i did home educate and no one could stop me now that is what hurts we told the LA to f off and there did lol you sound like drunk who does not care about his chidren did you have to take them to hospital lots?
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't hurt the LAin any way, shape or form...
DeleteYou merely give them the justification to be all the more problematic for other home educators in that authority catchment area.
You are the one that confirms the prejudices EWOs have regarding HE.
You are the root cause of many of the prejudices.
There is nothing to you but sheer aggression and complete ignorance...
Sooner or later you're going realise that you're nothing but an embarrassment to your son, that's the best scenario..at worst, you won't ever come to that realisation.
come round mate and your get a gift from me! or you to scared?
ReplyDeleteMr Williams..you really should learn to curb your aggression, you're going to have a stroke if you keep it up.
DeleteNo one is too scared to confront you. Everyone is well aware of the consequences and implications.
Deletecome round mate and your get a gift from me! or you to scared?
ReplyDeleteThere are many virtues that decent parents teach their children. One of these is that violence and agression have no place in society. Sadly you appear to hold differnet views to this, I only hope you haven't passed your views on to your son or that if you tried to he doesnt have the aggressive streak you seem to have.
that is rubbish i offered you a gift if there wish to come round to our house and repeat what you said on here looks to me like there to scared to say it to our face come round i got a lovely gift for you.
ReplyDeleteyou seem to have an aggressive streak dedending LA and there supporters? why is this?
you be plesed to know son has learnt from us and one lesson he learnt was do not allow any one to say nasty things about you
you allow your children to be abused and attacked do you? turn the other cheek do you?
I do enjoy my chats on here
But... people do say nasty things about you.
DeleteHere you are, doing it on a regular basis to Simon Webb.
What you have taught your child is intolerance and aggression.
You haven't taught him or allowed him to develop any coping strategies, or practical communicative skills.
You've given your child the seeds of rampant egotistical insecurity and the potential for developing an abusive personality.
Another incoherent rant. How do I have an agressive streak? Perhaps you could explain using my previous posts as evidence. Perhaps you could also tell everyone what the gift you have for people is? I bet you won't
ReplyDelete