Tuesday 5 July 2011

The Deuchars family; an apology

It was hardly possible to move here yesterday for all the Deuchars of various ages milling around the place. They had come here because I had mentioned the Open University in connection with home education and then stayed to denounce me because I had said that their family had a Christian background; a wholly unacceptable suggestion that both were at pains to deny. One quite sees their point. In much of the British home educating scene, ’Christian home educator’ is more or less synonymous with child-beating religious fundamentalist. I am happy to acquit the family of the damaging allegation that they have a Christian background, which both mother and daughter seemed at pains to deny!

I have in the past been curious to know whether or not Shena Deuchars used the ACE materials and as somebody else raised the subject yesterday, thought it worth adding my own two pennorth. This too provoked irritation, not only on the part of the mother, but also her daughter Katherine who zoomed in at once to abuse me, even ticking me off for not using their church’s full name. Sometimes, people from the United Reformed Church, which was formed in 1972 from an amalgamation of the Congregational Church with the Presbyterians, are referred to, both by themselves and others, as being ’United Reform’ for short. Katherine thought that this was gibberish, although it is not uncommon to hear Methodists, for example, say of somebody, ’Yes, he’s United Reform’, in the same way that one might say ’He’s C of E’. They mean by this to signify that the person is a member of the United Reform Church.

I can see that in future I shall have to be very careful what I say about any matter which might be thought to touch upon the Deuchars, mother and daughter both! No more mention of the Open University, for instance; talk of the OU being thought in Swindon to be a coded attack on their family. It would also be wise perhaps to avoid saying anything further about Christianity, Exeter, law, proof reading or copy editing; one cannot be too careful in avoiding the causing of inadvertent offence. I reserve my own opinionated teenage daughter as an ultimate deterrent; only unleashing her if the situation calls for a devastating response. I can see that others have a lower threshold for going nuclear in this way!

43 comments:

  1. Did she threaten legal action like I and a few others I can think of ought to do?
    Or do you only make proper apologies to Christians?

    ReplyDelete
  2. 'Did she threaten legal action like I and a few others I can think of ought to do?
    Or do you only make proper apologies to Christians?'

    Legal action for what? Suggesting that her family has a Christian background? Even in today's secular society, I doubt that the courts would hold that this lowers her standing among right-thinking people. Or do you mean that you yourself are considering taking legal action against me?

    I think that the question of Christianity is irrelevant here. Unless you mention this because you are yourself, as you say, a Zionist Jew. Do you feel that I am readier to apologise to Christians than I am to Jews? A strange idea. We can by all means explore this idea, starting with the concept of a Zionist Jew who supports attacks on the people of Israel by institutuing a damaging economic boycott against produce from the territories of Judea and Samaria.

    Simon.

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  3. 'Or do you only make proper apologies to Christians?'

    Since I appear now to stand accused of anti-Semitism (!), may I ask if anybody else puts the same construction upon the above post as Tanian Berlow apparently does? In other words, does any other reader take this to be in any real sense, an apology? If so, then it is time for me to abandon writing as a career and take up some other line of work entirely. Quite clearly, I am no longer sufficiently articulate to convey fine nuance, nor able effectively to use figures of speech such as irony!
    Simon.

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  4. yes give up writing, that's a good idea and the only boycott I 'institue' is against Nestle.

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  5. I'm glad you got in first, Simon. I certainly did not take it as an apology, just another way to sneer nastily at someone (for what, I am not sure).

    I was, and am, genuinely bemused that you (or anyone) has ever wondered if I used ACE. I thought that I was quite clear about not having used a curriculum. In fact, I have regularly referred to our being autonomous EHEers.

    A very minor point but I'm used to referring to people as "URC" - I can't quite see the point of omitting the final syllable of a 6-syllable phrase.

    I would encourage anyone who has read the above but did not read yesterday's exchange to go and do so. My objection was to the use of the word "background", not the word "Christian".

    I must apologise to others who thought (as I did) that yesterday's post was going to result in discussion about autonomous education. The stuff about ACE came from left field and then rather took on a life of its own.

    Simon wrote:
    I can see that in future I shall have to be very careful what I say about any matter which might be thought to touch upon the Deuchars, mother and daughter both!

    Thanks for the laugh. Given that I completely accepted your assertion that you were not talking about us in your initial post of yesterday and the subsequent exchange very definitely was about us, I do not think that the final paragraph of today's post is particularly appropriate.

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  6. 'yes give up writing, that's a good idea and the only boycott I 'institue' is against Nestle.'

    So from this, I take it that you are denying that you have signed up to an organisation currently seeking to boycot Israel and which is now campaigning for BT to cut its links with Israel, among other things? I am a little puzzled about this.
    Simon.

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  7. 'A very minor point but I'm used to referring to people as "URC" - I can't quite see the point of omitting the final syllable of a 6-syllable phrase.'

    I still know one or two old people who calim to be Congregationalists! More of a mouthful than either URC or United Reform.
    Simon.

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  8. 'I must apologise to others who thought (as I did) that yesterday's post was going to result in discussion about autonomous education.'

    Actually, the post was more about school children than home educated kids. The home education aspect was incidental and only because I wondered if there were parallels in the home educating world with what I have observed to be common practice among those who send their children to school. It was not really about autonomous education at all; more parents' psychology.
    Simon.

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  9. My main confusion with this post is that I thought yesterday you bought up the subject of CEE ltd/Ezzo's, yet today you state we were considering Open University. I must have missed something.
    Anyway, so this post was meant to do what exactly? Is it an appology, a dig, a point-proving exercise? Or something else?

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  10. You clearly understand less about Israeli politics than you do HE politics and i am not about to explain it to you. You unfailingly manage to get the wrong end of the stick in both areas.

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  11. My main confusion with this post is that I thought yesterday you bought up the subject of CEE ltd/Ezzo's, yet today you state we were considering Open University. I must have missed something.'

    No need to feel confused. Yesterday I was mulling over the possible similarities between schooling families who deny that they have put a lot of effort into their kids education and some autonomous educators who might also put more into the process than at first appears. Somebody asked if Shena Deuchars used one of the Christian curricula and I said that I was also curious about this. I was curious because I am interested in the use of such things by British home educators; nothing more sinister than that. The response to my question was, shall we say, energetic. It amused me and so todaO I posted what seemed to me to be an amusing mock apology. I can see though, that it has not at all been taken in the spirit in which it was meant and has indeed led at least one person to feel that I am prejudiced in favour of Christians. others evidently feel that this post indicates quite the opposite!
    'Simon.

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  12. 'You clearly understand less about Israeli politics than you do HE politics and i am not about to explain it to you. You unfailingly manage to get the wrong end of the stick in both areas.'

    So in short, you are saying that you have not signed the petition in support of the boycott of goods produced in Judea and Samaria; nor are you associated with the attempts to get BT to cut their connections with any Israeli telephone companies? No knowledge of Israeli politics at all is required here. It is simply a matter of fact; did you sign the petition calling for the boycott or not? If so, you can then explain how this ties in with your self-declared Zionism. Once we have cleared that up, then we can discuss the extent, if any, to which I favour Christians over other people of other religions.

    Simon.

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  13. For readers unfamiliar with the concept of the boycott on Israeli goods or services, I might mention that when I lived in Israel thirty five years ago, the boycott was in full swing. Many well known airlines refused to fly to Israel for fear of upsetting OPEC. Some went even further and refused to fly passengers with names like Cohen or Goldberg; thus demostrating their enthusiasm for the cause of anti-Zionism, or as we also call it, anti-Semitism. This odious practice is now creeping back into this country and I am always interested to see who supports it and who opposes it. Tania says that she is a Zionist and I am simply asking her about the extent to which she supports the boycott of Israel. I realise for any non Zionists, this must seem a little off topic, for which I apologise.
    Simon.

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  14. All this religion and politics is beyond me, I dont feel this post actually indicates a preference for any religion. I beginning to be almost convinced you were against any and all religions.
    I guess its true when they say never discuss religion or politics.

    ReplyDelete
  15. 'I beginning to be almost convinced you were against any and all religions'

    On the contrary, religion was a major factor in our decision to home educate. I was sorting through some old stuff with my daughter recently and we came across an old exercise book from when she was four. It contains some early writing practice; copying out the Commandments! Against religion, indeed!
    Simon.

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  16. signed up in 2007 before this boycott. Interested in knowing what other UK Jews thinking about Israel's actions seeing as I have been a member of Peace Now since I was 18. one cannot 'unsign' and all is signed too was this-
    Please join us – read the statement

    Jews for Justice for Palestinians is a network of Jews who are British or live in Britain, practising and secular, Zionist and not. We oppose Israeli policies that undermine the livelihoods, human, civil and political rights of the Palestinian people.


    I am a left wing zionist, I am also an Israeli. I reserve the right to be critical if I think critcism is needed- just as I will criticise the UK government . I have never boycotted anything except Nestle.

    Next you'll be saying I support the Aceh Liberation Army just because I spent time midwifing there...but neither of these two assertions would have the least bit of damaging potential. Unlike your claim that somehow I have had involvment with Christopher Warren and that I am the type to open my arms to dubious sorts .Still waiting for a proper apology .

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  17. Simon wrote ... Against religion, indeed!

    Ah, my mistake! It just sounds like it sometimes, almost like you mock anyone; Christian, Jehovahs Witness, Jew...
    As I said before, its all beyond me.

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  18. 'Ah, my mistake! It just sounds like it sometimes, almost like you mock anyone; Christian, Jehovahs Witness, Jew...'

    Slightly stunned by this suggestion! I don;t remember mocking Christians, Jews or Witnesses.
    Simon.

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  19. My example would be this post which felt a little mocking.
    Its really all about perception; how I interpretted it was not how you intended it to come across - a clear danger with the written word in any form.

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  20. Dear goodness! This is a severe tangent!

    I do find your need to post a wind-up a little childish but it is slightly amusing.

    However, if you would refrain from referring to me, I'm not about to object.

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  21. 'However, if you would refrain from referring to me, I'm not about to object.'

    This is so elliptical and allusive as to be wholly beyond my comprehension! Am I to induce from what you say that you do not wish me to refer to you again in the future? Is this a bilateral agreement; that I shall not say irritating things about you and you will do the same for me? Or is the arrangement to be that you will nip on here when you are minded and tell me that I am talking gibberish, but that I must in return maintain a gentlemanly and dignified silence in response? This hardly seems fair!
    Simon.

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  22. LOL! Well, I'd like to hear more from the splendid Shena and Kat! They are brilliant!

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  23. As a member of C4I and a home educator, I have been 'aware' of Tania in various places. Home educators talk about Israel, and her name comes up. Would this be the same Tania Berlow who derides other home educators for being vociferous in their support of the Palestinians?

    Let me understand how you can criticise other home educators for supporting the Palestinian cause, you criticise them for speaking out against Israel, and yet here you are admitting that you do the very same thing by promoting the boycott of Israeli products.

    It seems that you are once again the epitome of double standard.

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  24. 'It seems that you are once again the epitome of double standard.'

    So, why don't you email her and tel her what you think of her? Why post here?

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  25. Why post here? Well indeed why should anyone post here? My comment is in response to this comment by Simon:

    "So in short, you are saying that you have not signed the petition in support of the boycott of goods produced in Judea and Samaria; nor are you associated with the attempts to get BT to cut their connections with any Israeli telephone companies?"

    And this comment by Simon:

    "Tania says that she is a Zionist and I am simply asking her about the extent to which she supports the boycott of Israel."

    I am not sure how she might feel about an unsolicited email on this subject, but if she would like to give me her email address, then I may well discuss the affliction of dipsychos with her.

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  26. "yet here you are admitting that you do the very same thing by promoting the boycott of Israeli products."

    Errr, learn to read, anonymous. She actually said, 'I have never boycotted anything except Nestle.'

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  27. 'I am not sure how she might feel about an unsolicited email on this subject, but if she would like to give me her email address, then I may well discuss the affliction of dipsychos with her.'

    Wow, you write just like Simon!

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  28. Simon, what happened to the comment moderation? I think now would be a very good time to install it.

    ReplyDelete
  29. 'Simon, what happened to the comment moderation? I think now would be a very good time to install it.'

    Yes, I am inclined to agree with you C. Come on guys, let's start cooling it a bit.
    Simon.

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  30. @ C,

    Which part of my comment do you feel requires moderation? If you show me where you think I am being unfair, I may offer an apology.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous wrote (of course another coward anon):

    ''As a member of C4I and a home educator, I have been 'aware' of Tania in various places. ''

    So you are a Christian Evangelical member of Christians for Israel. I googled it and found two 'C4I's' and you sure as hell would not be so stupid as to write this petty vindictive horseshit if you were a member of the other C4I -the Israeli computer services directorate combat support corps!

    http://www.christiansforisrael.org/c4i/

    You then say :

    ''Home educators talk about Israel, and her name comes up.''

    Oh my where? Seeing as I have never mentioned anything at all contentious about Israel I find this truly mystifying. Someone's being telling porkies again and passing them off as common knowledge- everybody knows some people are well known for that sort of thing.
    Am I the only Israeli who is home educating that you have heard of?
    Why else would my name come up unless as the 'token' person you've never met and know very little about ?
    Next I will be reliably informed that I secretly wish to be man but just cannot find a big enough foreskin.
    I have never been particularly politically active in Israeli Palestinian politics at least not since I stood for 3 hours with Women in Black in as part of a collective of rape crisis councillors from the womens' centre in Haifa at the start of the 1st intifada when I was 20 years old. And of course earlier I mentioned that I signed up for the newsletter of 'Jews for Justice for Palestinians' - which was kind of like joining a group and finding out that while the sentiment often rings true and there are things I will be critical of when it comes to Israel (and Palestine) some of the the folks are just too extreme and the whole thing is run by a few voices who claim to be about liberty and justice but really only want to hear their own point of view and have their own worldview affirmed.

    (sound familiar anyone?)

    At any rate I have never done anything more than sign up -what my views are have not been discussed much with anyone in the past 15 years except for 2 friends and briefly with Simon Webb and only then in the aftermath of some calamity on one side or the other. It's just not worth it .Most people I know in the UK do not have enough of the dialogue and history of both sides to make meaningful debate and anyone who lives in Israel or Palestine knows that the subject is NEVER something to be taken lightly or tossed around without thought.
    Maybe you are mistaking me for my brother Matthew who is rather outspoken in his views? In which case you, Anonymous either live in Scotland or you are indeed Simon Webb as I mentioned to him about my brothers escapades outside Waitrose last year when he bought Israeli produce and gave it away for free in an anti-boycott gesture.
    I am not my brother, we do not hold the same views on the subject and yet he is also a Peace Now member- at least I think he is- he considers himself left wing on the spectrum that is I/P politics- you see I do not even know if he is -that's how prevalent the issue is in my life.

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  32. You then say :
    ''Would this be the same Tania Berlow who derides other home educators for being vociferous in their support of the Palestinians?''

    Can you point to an example of this- just one would do.
    Google facebook page and every list I am on or have been on in the past and please post proof right here.
    I would never be derisive never mind vociferously so- but I do get weary and sometimes express that to friends when people make decisions about facts or are so entrenched in a subject of which they have little real experience (they are neither Israeli nor Palestinian nor have they been anywhere near the region in a quarter of a century ) to the point that they no longer bother to read any facts and automatically take one side -no matter which side it is, either Israeli OR Palestinian.

    And finally you come out with this confused gem:
    ''Let me understand how you can criticise other home educators for supporting the Palestinian cause, you criticise them for speaking out against Israel, and yet here you are admitting that you do the very same thing by promoting the boycott of Israeli products.''

    Should you be home educating if you cannot even read before you leap in and make judgements? It's not particularly Christian of you either.

    So let me get this straight are you throwing infalmmatory material around because you claim I have criticised people for supporting Palestinians or because I myself support them?
    or is it because you claim I do both?

    I had no idea that it was a 'you're either with us or against us' matter nor why you care either way. You sound like an extremist to me.

    Why I am eating a Carmel avocado right now and msn messenger chatting to my friend from university , Hanin, whose father was the first Israeli Arab Bahai politician in Northern Israel , whilst listening to David Broza sing Yihiyeh Tov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrqhtj4ruiI and reading Michael Lerners latest book and wondering how it compares to Alan Dershowitz's versions of events.

    See I can multi-task whilst I gleefully sell home educators down the river wringing my hands and saying 'oh the money that I will get from this '

    ...Go on say I am a liar and prove it and then go report me to Khaled Meshal or better still Yigal Amir- neither of whom particularly worry me as a risk to my family.

    Isn't this just another lame attempt to try and get as many people confused about me as possible because clearly there is some disagreement over the best way forward for the future of HE? Which has feck all to do with Middle East politics.
    Or is because I will not bitch, insinuate or otherwise land anyone 'in it' by making any comments directed at individuals ,whether substantiated or not?

    Other than comments made to Simon Webb of course- and he considers himself fair game although who died and made him G-d to decide that I too was fair game for all those pathtic angry and lying people is anyones guess.

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  33. No particular part requires more moderation than another - I can just see how angry and heated the debate is getting, and how personal.
    I was really just asking Simon what had happened with comment moderation because he posted previously that he is keen for people not to attack each other personally and it looked like it was headed that way.

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  34. I am intrigued by one part of what Tania says and that is that she is an Israeli. Tell me Tania, was that by birth or marriage or did you make Aliya? Obviously, a lot of what you say, I am familiar with. I remember the David Broza song coming out after Sadat's visit because I was living in Israel then. I certainly was not aware that you were actually an Isreali national. You are more apt to use Yiddish expressions than Hebrew words, which argues for your having grown up in Europe or America and your accent does not suggest any sort of Middle Eastern origin. I am interested as to when you actually became an Israeli. This is not meant in a confrontative way; it is something which I did not know and when we spoke on the telephone and I was talking about Israel, I don't recall your mentioning that you had nationality. It is always a problem when somebody starts throwing accusations of anti-Semitism around and it does rather invite questioning of motives.
    Simon.

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  35. I have not accused you of anti-semitism Simon, what I wrote was questioning your'apology' to Shena , if it can be considered that by the intended recipient!


    ''Or do you only make proper apologies to Christians? ''

    meaning you only apologise to those who hold similar views to yourself.

    I rarely use Yiddish words as I do not speak Yiddish but I do speak fluent Hebrew.
    Anyone who actually knows me would know this.

    Do you really need to see my Teudat Ze'hut?

    I fail to see how any of this is at all relevant to home education other than to attract the most extreme elements from within HE .

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  36. @C

    ''I was really just asking Simon what had happened with comment moderation because he posted previously that he is keen for people not to attack each other personally and it looked like it was headed that way. ''

    Headed that way?
    It is already most definately that way.

    Simon said in his moderation post that himself and anyone who trying to change laws or introduce restrictions on HE can have their motives questioned and people can say what they like.

    here is what he wrote -

    ''To sum up, anybody can say anything they like about me or question the motives of anybody trying to change the law or introduce new restrictions on home education. That is quite right and proper. No more sniping at other people for their comments though. ''

    I guess those that have read the circulating draft of the framework which was edited and looked over by the group of people who volunteered to do so, can make up their own mind about whether there is any actual suggestion of law being changed. The current guidelines are not law and I don't see any suggestion to change any laws in the circulating guidelines framework nor do I see any new restrictions although when the time comes, if it comes, I do have a few things I'd like to see changed in the circulating draft and am curious to learn what the other groups who did in the end send something into GS for consideration ,came up with.

    So in short he has invited anyone to question my motives- apparently on any no matter how little they know about me .

    ...now about that foreskin?

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  37. bornjoyful wrote...I do have a few things I'd like to see changed in the circulating draft and am curious to learn what the other groups who did in the end send something into GS for consideration ,came up with.
    I am very interested in this too. I am curious as to who else submitted ideas, and who is discussing which ideas to consider or not.

    bornjoyful also wrote......now about that foreskin?

    LOL, ouch!!

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  38. Tania, you said:‎

    ‎“(of course another coward anon)”‎

    Actually, I hold the courage of my convictions. From what I read here and elsewhere, you ‎appear to be the one person who has neither convictions nor courage. That remains to be ‎seen.‎

    Tania you said:‎

    ‎“So you are a Christian Evangelical member of Christians for Israel.”‎

    Do ‎you know what the definition of evangelical is? To be evangelical, a Christian would have to ‎be ‘born again’. I am not. So the short answer is no, I am not an evangelical anything, I am a ‎Christian. I am in fact a member of Christians for Israel, as I said before, one could almost ‎say a Christian Zionist.‎

    Tania you said:‎

    ‎“Am I the only Israeli who is home educating that you have heard of?” ‎

    I did not know until reading it here, that you are Israeli, I did know that you are Jewish. One ‎assumes that since you have a Scottish accent, you are not indigenous to Israel, as Simon ‎says. I am not in the habit of interrogating fellow home educators about either their ‎religious beliefs or their nationality, so to answer your question, I simply do not know of any ‎other Israeli’s home educating in the UK. Why does it matter?‎

    Tania you said:‎

    ‎“I mentioned that I signed up for the newsletter of 'Jews for Justice for Palestinians'”‎

    In their brochure, they say … ‎

    -WE PROMOTE boycott, divestment and sanctions initiatives against Israeli and foreign companies profiting from the illegal occupation-‎

    I imagine that is where Simon got it from. Your name is on the list of signatories, not just ‎their newsletter mailing list, which seems to suggest that you support the views and ‎activities of the group concerned.‎

    Tania you said:‎

    ‎“So let me get this straight are you throwing infalmmatory material around because you ‎claim I have criticised people for supporting Palestinians or because I myself support ‎them? or is it because you claim I do both?”‎

    I am not sure that I am throwing ‘infalmmatory’ material around, do you mean ‎inflammatory? As a member of C4I, my interest is always pricked by comments about ‎Israel and Zionism. Hence my interest in Simon’s comment here, where he revealed you ‎to be a signatory to JFJFP. ‎

    I have heard tell about you ‘going off on one’ when fellow home educators support the ‎Palestinians and when they speak negatively and publically about Israel. I am trying to ‎understand why you would ‘go off on one’ when these home educators are apparently ‎doing the same thing you are. Either you support the Palestinians or you do not. I am ‎wondering why you would froth at the mouth over apparently non-Jewish/non-Israeli ‎home educators supporting the Palestinians against Israel, and yet here you are, a ‎signatory to JFJFP.‎

    It is not the first time that you have apparently come down on both sides of the ‎argument, in different places. What concerns me are your motives in doing this. Do you ‎just say whatever you think your current audience wants to hear? It certainly appears ‎that way.‎

    Tania you said:‎

    ‎“...Go on say I am a liar and prove it and then go report me to Khaled Meshal or better ‎still Yigal Amir- neither of whom particularly worry me as a risk to my family.”‎

    I am not sure what to say in response to that statement, though I confess I am ‎concerned by the unhinged tone of it. You think your family may be under threat from ‎the leader of a terrorist organisation, AND an Israeli assassin yet you are not particularly ‎worried?‎

    Tania you said:‎
    ‎ ‎
    ‎''Or do you only make proper apologies to Christians? ''‎

    Your comment to Simon sounded very much like you had accused him of anti-Semitism.‎

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  39. yawn! bored now of Mr Evangelical and this blog.

    say what you like and lie all you want .
    I for one will not be reading it .

    Au revoir nutter!

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  40. *applauds Tania*

    Let them eat your dust, Tania.

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  41. Anonymous said
    'I have heard tell about you ‘going off on one’ when fellow home educators support the ‎Palestinians and when they speak negatively and publically about Israel.'

    Oh, you've 'heard tell', have you? Would that be 'hearsay' then? I've never 'heard tell' of any such thing, and I've known Tania for years.

    'From what I read here and elsewhere, you ‎appear to be the one person who has neither convictions nor courage.'

    Would you like to share your sources? I'd like to check that you've got the right Tania Berlow.

    'Either you support the Palestinians or you do not.'

    Really? Are you saying that she has to be 100% for them or 100% against them? Are you always so unequivocal?

    'You think your family may be under threat from ‎the leader of a terrorist organisation, AND an Israeli assassin yet you are not particularly ‎worried?‎'

    No, that's not what she said.

    'froth at the mouth'

    No, sorry, never seen that.

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  42. Tania said in a previous post:

    "When it comes to sticks and ends, you Simon always seem to want to grab the end with shit on it and spread it around. It's quite intentional and I do not think you care what kind of impression anyone gets as long as you can wave your shitty stick in the air and get others to smell it."


    And I am the nutter? *Snort*

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  43. Have you all been at them funny little mushrooms again?

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