Over the last couple of days several people commenting here have told me that they have felt insulted. This was because I have in the past said unflattering things about autonomous home education and this means that as autonomous home educators themselves they have been personally maligned. I have to say that this strikes me as absolute nonsense. Three points need to be considered.
The first point is that many parents of autonomously educated children are abnormally sensitive to any criticism of their methods. They see even casual observations as savage attacks. Consider the following statement: many parents of children at secondary schools lie their heads off about their children's academic achievements and make strenuous efforts to deceive their local authority about what their children are actually capable of. I could make this comment anywhere; on a blog, in a newspaper article or speaking in the local pub and nobody would turn a hair or take any offence. The coursework swindle has become so widespread and blatant that even the government has noticed. This is why it is being replaced by controlled assessments in the classroom. I don't know a single parent who has not drawn pictures, sewn garments, composed music, written essays or carried out mathematical investigations for their children's GCSEs. In other words, they are setting out deliberately to deceive others about the true nature of their children's academic achievement. I have never heard of a parent who found it insulting when this is mentioned; parents just laugh. In fact everybody exaggerates or inflates what their children do; it is just how parents are. Everybody claims that their child is gifted/talented/ sensitive/clever/musical/advanced for her age and so on.
The funny thing is of course that while I can say anything at all about the coursework swindle without anybody getting annoyed, the suggestion that autonomously educating parents get up to the same tricks is apparently deeply insulting. This rather makes me think that it is a matter of sensitivity on the part of some parents and not a rational objection at all. If I were to say a similar thing on here or in a newspaper article about home educating parents, there would be cries of protest and general anguish. Let's try: many parents of autonomously educated children lie their heads off about their children's activities and do their best to deceive their local authority as to the true level of their children's academic achievements. Whoa, steady on there! This is deeply offensive to home educating parents. It is an insult!
The second point is that people often say horrible things about subjects which are dear to our hearts. Richard Dawkins for instance has said that a Catholic upbringing is worse than the sexual abuse of a child. As somebody who raised his daughter in the church, should I feel insulted by this? After all, he is saying that the way I raised my child is worse than sexual abuse! Of course I don't actually feel insulted at all. I disagree with his views, but he is perfectly entitled to hold them. I can hardly expect everybody in the world to tiptoe around things which I hold sacred and then accuse them of insulting me if they criticise something which is important to me. If that were the case then nobody would ever be able to say much about religion, education, politics or anything else without upsetting and insulting other people! Most of us take all this in our stride. Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have these views and the best thing I can do is just not get too worked up about them. Mind you, they have both been told time and again that they are wrong and they still say gratuitously offensive things without a thought for my feelings. There must be something wrong with them!
A final point is this. If I read books by Richard Dawkins, or look at newspaper articles by him or go on his blog, then I shall encounter views about religion with which I disagree strongly. Whatever can I do? Ah, I know. If I don't want to read his opinions on religion, opinions with which I know in advance that I shall disagree, I could avoid going on his blog or reading what he says about religion in the newspapers. This is actually what I generally do. After all, there would be no point at all in my going on his blog and then fretting because he was saying horrible things about my religion. There would be still less point in claiming to be insulted and suggesting that he must be autistic because he won't listen to my views and does not mind upsetting me. Obviously, I would do better not to read what he says if it is going to wind me up. Some of the people who comment here remind me very much of the little old spinster who rang the police and complained that she was upset because she could see the neighbours getting undressed at night. When the police came round, she showed them up into her bedroom and pointed out of the window. The policeman peered out but could not see into the window of the house opposite. 'Sorry, love', he told her, 'I can't see into your neighbours' bedroom at all' She said, 'Oh you have to climb onto the dressing table and then crane your neck round to see properly...'
I am very happy for anybody to come on here and comment. That's why I don't moderate. But if what I am saying here is really offending anybody, it might be better for people not to read it. When all's said and done, this is a personal blog about my thoughts on home education. I'll be damned if I stop expressing my opinions simply because they are unpalatable to this person or that. There are blogs around which cater especially for autonomous educators, things like Dare to Know and Mairre Stafford's blog. I don't go on them much myself, because they irritate me, but I have an idea that some of the recent commentators here might find the views expressed in such places more in keeping with their own. As it is, they have apparently in the past been offended and insulted by the things which I have said on Internet lists. A year after I was chucked off those lists, they are now coming on here so that they can be insulted and offended all over again! This surely verges on the masochistic.
Tuesday, 27 July 2010
Insulting home educators
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Well, you can say what you like but saying somone is lying is insulting! If the person lied about takes offence then it's also offensive!
ReplyDeleteWell done for making a huge blog post over it lol.
"Consider the following statement: many parents of children at secondary schools lie their heads off about their children's academic achievements and make strenuous efforts to deceive their local authority about what their children are actually capable of."
ReplyDeleteIf I were a parent of a child at secondary school and you said that all parents of children of secondary schools lie, I would be offended. This is the equivalent to what you say about AE. Besides, suggesting that parent's lie to help their children is a little different to suggesting that all autonomous educators harm their children. You have said this more than once in several ways.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"The funny thing is of course that while I can say anything at all about the coursework swindle without anybody getting annoyed, the suggestion that autonomously educating parents get up to the same tricks is apparently deeply insulting."
I would suggest less insulted and more concerned that common misapprehensions about autonomous education will result in it's effective banning if not corrected. AE parents have chosen this approach because they believe the alternative is harmful so anything that is likely to change AE radically or make it impossible is viewed as likely to cause harm to their children by AE parents. I don't expect you to feel insulted because I think your education methods are harmful to your child. However, if it were possible that the widespread acceptance of my beliefs would lead to you being prevented from using your preferred education methods with your child I might expect a different response.
How would you feel if you were forced to only use autonomous education with your child, a method you consider inferior and harmful? Would you view this as harmful to your child and argue against it, or would you happily accept it as fine? Would you have no emotional investment in the threat at all?
Simon wrote,
"A final point is this. If I read books by Richard Dawkins, or look at newspaper articles by him or go on his blog, then I shall encounter views about religion with which I disagree strongly. Whatever can I do? Ah, I know. If I don't want to read his opinions on religion, opinions with which I know in advance that I shall disagree, I could avoid going on his blog or reading what he says about religion in the newspapers."
Would you feel the same if Dawkins attempted to ban your religion?
"Well, you can say what you like but saying somone is lying is insulting!"
ReplyDeleteIt's only insulting to people who think it's wrong to lie. Simon seems to think it's entirely normal, has mentioned frequently that he lies if it will benefit his career and thinks everyone else does it. Is it any wonder he does not see it as an insult?
http://www.apostolic.edu/biblestudy/files/9th-com.htm
ReplyDeleteThank you, whoever posted the link above. I am however pretty familiar with the ninth commandment!
ReplyDelete"has mentioned frequently that he lies if it will benefit his career"
That old chestnut. Again. About eighteen months ago I was having a lively exchange with a couple of people on the HE-UK list. The topic was writing for newspapers and I posted a section from a piece which I did many years ago for a writers' magazine. I assumed that it would be taken in the spirit in which it had been written, that is to say tongue in cheek, but I had forgotton how po-faced and humourless some of the people on that site can be. It was taken at face value. Here it is;
" Third rate hack freelancers, into which category I am obliged to place myself, have a deplorable habit of misrepresenting themselves to both editors and also the public at large. If you were to be a reader of True Detective, then you would a few years ago have found me describing myself as a former detective from Scotland Yard! And don't even ask what I claimed to be when writing for The Lady..... Why, I even change gender for women's magazines."
I have an idea that most ordinary people reading this would see that it was light hearted. It is upon this that the mythology of my lying to further my career is founded. Not of course that writing is my career, it is no more than a hobby. Anonymous says that I frequently mention this, but I would be interested to see another example apart from that one post on HE-UK.
So if you think lying is wrong and you don't do it (except light heartedly, of course), why would calling someone a liar not be an insult?
ReplyDelete"why would calling someone a liar not be an insult?"
ReplyDeleteIt certainly can be an insult but sometimes it is just a neutral description of what happens. Calling a person a thief might be an insult, particularly if he is not a thief. However when a judge is sentencing somebody to prison for theft and calls the man a thief, this is not really an insult at all. It all depends on the context.
"It certainly can be an insult but sometimes it is just a neutral description of what happens. Calling a person a thief might be an insult, particularly if he is not a thief."
ReplyDeleteWell there you have it. When an accusation is accurate, it's not an insult, if it isn't accurate, it is. This should tell you why AE parents so often feel insulted by you.
When an accusation is accurate, it's not an insult, if it isn't accurate, it is."
ReplyDeleteNot always as straightforward and simple as that.
"This should tell you why AE parents so often feel insulted by you"
But since this is the only place in the world where my opinions are expressed, then I suppose that these AE parents must be coming on here just so that they can feel insulted. Presumably they are getting something from the experience?
"Presumably they are getting something from the experience?"
ReplyDeleteThe chance to correct misinformation?
"I don't know a single parent who has not drawn pictures, sewn garments, composed music, written essays or carried out mathematical investigations for their children's GCSEs. In other words, they are setting out deliberately to deceive others about the true nature of their children's academic achievement."
ReplyDeleteI didn't. I didn't need to. I assume that you did.
""Presumably they are getting something from the experience?"
ReplyDeleteThe chance to correct misinformation?"
Exactly. I read and comment on this blog for that reason only. I don't want anyone who comes here looking for information about HE to get the impression that your view of autonomous education is correct.
"I would suggest less insulted and more concerned that common misapprehensions about autonomous education will result in it's effective banning if not corrected."
ReplyDeleteQuite.
"I assume that you did."
ReplyDeleteI couldn't! My daughter took nothing but IGCSEs for which there was no coursework; a terrible grudge of mine with all our friends' children benefiting from their parents' help.
"I didn't"
ReplyDeleteNo, possibly not. But then I don't really feel that I know you. It's a little hard to get to know somebody who wishes to be known only as X. Put's one in mind of the villain in an Agatha Christie novel.
I don't feel I know you either, even though I'm aware that you call yourself Simon Webb. You can be anyone you want to be on the internet.
ReplyDeleteAh, I see your point. The name 'Simon Webb' could be just as much of a mysterious cypher as 'X'. It's an interesting idea. Incidentally, are you sure that you really exist independently and are not just another of my sock puppets? I ask because you feed me the appropriate lines almost as obligingly as Mr Williams of Alton. Not that I am objecting you understand, it makes things flow very smoothly!
ReplyDelete"Ah, I see your point."
ReplyDeleteWell, that was part of my point. I don't think that knowing someone's given name enables me to know the person any better. I have several friends who have changed their names, and I don't think I know them less well than I know my other friends who still use their given names. Conversely, I don't think I know you any better than I would if you called yourself Joe Bloggs, or ~.
"I couldn't! My daughter took nothing but IGCSEs for which there was no coursework; a terrible grudge of mine with all our friends' children benefiting from their parents' help."
ReplyDeleteWhat about your older daughter who went to school?
"What about your older daughter who went to school?"
ReplyDeleteI plead the Fifth Amendment!
"The chance to correct misinformation
ReplyDeleteExactly. I read and comment on this blog for that reason only."
And also presumably to add some of your own, as in:
"It's only insulting to people who think it's wrong to lie. Simon seems to think it's entirely normal, has mentioned frequently that he lies if it will benefit his career"
How is this misinformation? You seem to be suggesting that you do lie (even if light-heartedly or about your school going daughter's achievements) and you don't seem to think it's insulting to call someone a liar which presumably means you see nothing wrong in being one.
ReplyDelete"suggesting that you do lie (even if light-heartedly or about your school going daughter's achievements)"
ReplyDeleteWhen people write humorously or light heartedly about something or other and say things which are either not true or very exaggerated, I don't think most people would call it telling a lie. We don't generally think that comedians on the television who tell fantastic and improbable stories are liars. This is the difficulty with the real world; it is not always a case of truth or lies. As far as my older daughter is concerned, I have said nothing about her educational qualifications and you have no idea if she was educated in this country or even took any GCSEs at all. When she visits next, I shall show her this exchange and if she wishes to comment on it she may do so. In the meantime, you are welcome to make any assumptions you wish about her, as long as you bear in mind that your assumptions are likely to be wide of the mark. If you wish to construct some fantasy about either me or members of my family and then use it to demonstrate to your own satisfaction that I am a liar, then of course you are free to do so. Alternatively, you could get out a little more.
"And also presumably to add some of your own, as in:
ReplyDelete"It's only insulting to people who think it's wrong to lie. Simon seems to think it's entirely normal, has mentioned frequently that he lies if it will benefit his career" "
Not me. My name's X, and I didn't write this. But how is it misinformation, unless you were lying about lying?
"As far as my older daughter is concerned, I have said nothing about her educational qualifications and you have no idea if she was educated in this country or even took any GCSEs at all."
But you wrote a newspaper article about her going to school in this country and taking her GCSE's.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"Third rate hack freelancers, into which category I am obliged to place myself, have a deplorable habit of misrepresenting themselves to both editors and also the public at large. If you were to be a reader of True Detective, then you would a few years ago have found me describing myself as a former detective from Scotland Yard! And don't even ask what I claimed to be when writing for The Lady..... Why, I even change gender for women's magazines."
and Simon wrote,
"When people write humorously or light heartedly about something or other and say things which are either not true or very exaggerated, I don't think most people would call it telling a lie."
The first comment was written in response to someone asking Simon if he is a qualified teacher as he claimed in a national newspaper. Were you writing humorously or light heartedly when you lied about your qualifications (presumably to give some weight or believability to the opinions expressed in the article) in the national newspaper, Simon?
"But you wrote a newspaper article about her going to school in this country and taking her GCSE's."
ReplyDeleteSpectacular piece of misinformation! I have never written anything at all about my older daughter taking GCSEs.
"Were you writing humorously or light heartedly when you lied about your qualifications (presumably to give some weight or believability to the opinions expressed in the article) in the national newspaper, Simon? "
ReplyDeleteThe context was that I was being denounced on the HE-UK list for being a teacher and therefore by implication a limb of Satan. I pointed out that one should not believe everybody's description of themselves on the masthead of opinion pieces. I neither confirmed, nor denied that I was a teacher; it was a bit of a tease! As I think I have already mentioned, I included a few sentences from a piece I did for a writer's magazine to illustrate this. I have not really described myself as a former Scotland yard detective in True Detective magazine! This was meant to amuse the freelance writers who buy the magazine and as an amusing idea of the lengths to which somebody might go in order to get an article published.Have you never read funny pieces like this in magazines before, or do you like so many others here believe that satire and humour of this kind is really a type of lying?
"The context was that I was being denounced on the HE-UK list for being a teacher and therefore by implication a limb of Satan."
ReplyDeleteMy impression is that they thought you were attempting to use your position in order to argue from authority, presumably the reason you included the 'information' in the original article.
"I pointed out that one should not believe everybody's description of themselves on the masthead of opinion pieces. I neither confirmed, nor denied that I was a teacher;"
You're mistaken Simon, you said that you were not a teacher, so you either lied in the article or lied in your reply to the question on list.
"Have you never read funny pieces like this in magazines before, or do you like so many others here believe that satire and humour of this kind is really a type of lying?"
Which instance was satire or humour, saying you were a teacher in the article or saying you were not a teacher in the list reply?
I have probably just about reached the limit of discussing this jokey email which I sent almost two years ago. You keep saying things which are not true, I keep correcting you and the whole thing is becoming a little wearing. I have the posts before me and can read exactly what I did or did not say. This has less to do with home education and more to do with your determination to somehow catch me out. Random and untruthful statements are being thrown in, such as,
ReplyDelete' But you wrote a newspaper article about her going to school in this country and taking her GCSE's. '
'Simon seems to think it's entirely normal, has mentioned frequently that he lies if it will benefit his career and thinks everyone else does it. '
As fast as I correct one such statement, up people pop with another. I think that I am prepared to call it a day now. There really is only so much time which I wish to devote to refuting these stories and if you wish to believe that I am a liar then you may do so with my blessing!
"You keep saying things which are not true, I keep correcting you and the whole thing is becoming a little wearing."
ReplyDeleteOK, I'll keep it simple and make just two statements.
1. You said in a newspaper article that you were a teacher.
2. You said on an email list, "I am absolutely baffled by everything that you say. I am not a teacher."
Which of the above statements is a lie? If both are accurate, one of them is obviously a lie and neither seems particularly funny.