Wednesday 25 August 2010

Giving children choices

Now either I write in a very incoherent and confusing fashion or some of the people reading this blog are deliberately obtuse. We must hope that it is not a combination of both these things, otherwise I might as well give up and stop writing these pieces altogether! I have for the last couple of days been trying to make what seems to me a very simple point; that the more formal qualifications a teenager possesses, the better, generally speaking. This is because having things like high grade GCSEs and/or A levels mean that good jobs, vocational courses and higher education are all likely to be easier for the young person to obtain.

Unfortunately, some people here have interpreted this to mean that I do not value vocational courses; that I think that every young person should go to university; that I believe everybody should follow my own methods of education and that I am an 'education snob'. This last is utterly bizarre. Simone's sister went to live at a riding school after taking her GCSEs. She was never academic and has worked happily with horses for the last five years. I don't recall that this choice was ever seen as being in any way inferior in our house to Simone's wish to attend university.

Under the guise of giving children choices, some home educating parents do not enter their children for examinations routinely; doing so only if the child specifically asks for this. This can of course result in a teenager without any GCSEs or A levels. Nobody can possibly have any idea of what a sixteen or seventeen year-old will want to do. Often, a fifteen year-old's ambition is very different from that of the same child at twelve. Similarly, the plan might change by the time the young person is seventeen. The aim of a responsible parent is to ensure always that the young person has as many options available to her as is possible. So that if the child reaches sixteen and wishes to be a carpenter, she may do so. If she wishes instead to go to college to study A levels, she should also be able to do that. On the other hand if she wishes to train to be a plumber, that too must be possible. If a child has five GCSEs at grades A*-C, then all these choices will be possible. If a child has no GCSEs, then one of these choices, that of going to college to study A levels, is likely to be denied to her. This is what I mean by a child being restricted in her choices by the parents' decisions. The child might reach the age of sixteen, wish to pursue a certain course and not be able to do so. So in some cases, having the five GCSEs at A*-C will make a certain choice possible. I cannot think of any circumstances where having five GCSEs at grades A*-C would prevent any choice. They certainly won't stop anybody training to be a plumber or being apprenticed to a carpenter. This being the case, it is better for a sixteen year-old to have five GCSEs at A*-C than not to have them.

When we look at the situation when a child reaches seventeen and may want to go to university, then it is again a good thing if the child can choose between as many universities as possible. The more A* GCSEs that a teenager has, the wider the choice of university which is likely to be available. In other words, having six or seven GCSEs at A* will mean that a teenager might be able to apply to Cambridge or Royal Holloway. If a teenager had only grades Bs and Cs, then her choice might be restricted to only one of those two choices. I cannot see that this would be a better thing. My daughter got four As at AS level. This means that her choice of universities is wider than that of her friend who only managed Cs. The A's therefore give the child more choice.

When parents decide that they will not get their child to study for and take GCSEs, then the parents are making decisions about their children's future. The decision made is that the child will have fewer choices at the age of sixteen than is the case with a child who did study for and take a bunch of GCSEs. I cannot offhand think of any choice which will be restricted by the possession of GCSEs, but I can think of choices which will be denied by their lack. This means that parents who do not get their children to take GCSEs are, in effect, restricting their child's future choices. I do not see this as a good or desirable thing.

Of course, there is no reason at all why a parent should not restrict a child's choices in this way if that is what they think is for the best. It is surely sensible though to acknowledge that this is what is being done. It is perfectly true that some young people are not suited to higher education and have no wish to go to university. This should be the child's own decision though, not one made on their behalf by their parents at a very young age. By not making provision for GCSEs, or ensuring that the child studies for another qualification such as Open University credits, parents are putting their children at a grave disadvantage if they do decide to go into higher education or even take some vocational courses.

Even if the child does not want to go into higher education, the GCSEs will come in handy. Simone's sister needed to have a basic knowledge of science and mathematics and when she went for the interview at the riding school; the proprietor wanted to be sure that she had English, mathematics and science at at least grade C. A couple of years ago she was toying with the idea of re-training as a mechanic. The course which she was considering required GCSE mathematics at B. Not having any GCSEs is a great disadvantage, even if you never want to go near university. Also worth remembering is this. For many people, a child who has been out of school for years and has not got any GCSEs can look very much like a child who has been excluded from school. I have seen this confusion arise when people are looking at my daughter. They are thinking, 'Uh Oh, something weird here. Why has she been out of school? Bad behaviour, learning difficulties?' The glittering array of GCSEs reassures these idiots. I don't myself much care what people like that think, but it could have a poor effect upon my daughter's chances. If she is applying for a job and they think that she is a no hoper who was chucked out of school and therefore has no qualifications, they are less likely to employ her. Application forms often do not give much room for such information. All the prospective employer might see is a blank box for GCSEs and under 'schools attended', the information, 'educated at home'. Many would rather play safe by calling for interview the applicant with a more conventional profile.

The decision not to take GCSEs can cast a very long shadow indeed. All I am saying is that perhaps parents should consider the implications of making such a decision carefully. The bad effects upon a child's future are certainly not limited to not being able to get to a Russell Group university, but can pursue them even if they do decide to become a carpenter or mechanic.

42 comments:

  1. "Application forms often do not give much room for such information. All the prospective employer might see is a blank box for GCSEs and under 'schools attended', the information, 'educated at home'. Many would rather play safe by calling for interview the applicant with a more conventional profile."

    Many would, but many others might be interested in something unconventional. A huge number of employers in the UK are SMEs and I know from experience that they are unlikely to want to spend days sifting through applications from candidates with a 'conventional profile'.

    It comes as a blessed relief after wading through dozens, or even hundreds, of almost identical applications, some of which are totally unrelated to the job requirements, to see a covering letter detailing extensive relevant experience, an unusual educational profile, or, in one case, a beautifully presented folder containing, unfortunately, a cv that suggested the candidate wasn't who we wanted, but the temptation to interview her because she clearly showed significantly more initiative than any of the others, was strong.

    A stack of A*s might help if you intend to compete for places at RG universities or blue chip management trainee places after graduation, but they could reduce your chances with local companies looking for someone who is likely to stay with them, rather than disappear the moment they get a better offer from elsewhere.

    Far better to have a rough idea of what sort of thing you want to do with your life and work backwards to what qualifications you might need. This is, of course, what you and your daughter have done. It's just that in her case, the RG university is on her list, so it makes sense to get the best exam results she can.

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  2. I was thinking more suzyg of real life home educated people of whom I have knowledge. The girl who was de-registered from school at thirteen, for example. Her parents were told by people that she didn't need to worry about GCSEs and that she could always take them later. She lives a couple of streets away and is now eighteen. She has never had a job and is unlikely to get one. The fact that her applications show that she was taken out of school at thirteen and has no qualifications probably has a lot to do with this.

    "but they could reduce your chances with local companies looking for someone who is likely to stay with them,"

    Once again, the astonishing idea that having good qualifications will act as some sort of bar on employment prospects. Best stay in your own spehere and not try and rise above your station in life! There is something absolutely Victorian about this philosophy and I don't mean that in a good way!

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  3. "she was never academic and has worked happily with horses for the last five years. I don't recall that this choice was ever seen as being in any way inferior in our house to Simone's wish to attend university."

    Then maybe you should consider discussing other options and routes rather than GCSEs to the exclusion of all others? Implying that GCSEs are the best/only route worth considering (by only ever discussing them and going on and on about how parents are letting their children down badly by not getting their HE children to gain loads of them whether they want them or not) is just as bad as suggestions that they are worthless and always unnecessary.

    "Under the guise of giving children choices, some home educating parents do not enter their children for examinations routinely;"

    So do you think it is wise to make people enter exams if you know they will fail? Or do you think GCSEs are so dumbed down that all children can gain them?

    "If a child has five GCSEs at grades A*-C, then all these choices will be possible."

    But at the ages you are talking about, 15-17, there would be no problem with taking 5 GCSEs as going on to A levels a year or two later than 'normal'. It's only going to add a year. There was a wide variety of ages in the A level courses my child took, from 18 to about 24. Why the rush between 14 and 16? One of my children aimed for an art course from 13 and produced a great portfolio. They are still heavily into art and heading for university next year (all going well), but if they had a change of heart and decided on an academic route, it would be relatively easy to switch even though they don't have GCSEs yet. If they had taken GCSEs between 14 and 16, they would not be as far along their art course as they are now, they would not have had time to develop their skills to such a high level.

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  4. "Once again, the astonishing idea that having good qualifications will act as some sort of bar on employment prospects. Best stay in your own spehere and not try and rise above your station in life!"

    Or maybe some people would much prefer this type of work and for some families, this will be a step up in station! I know families where *any* work would be a step up (though they are not home-ed to be fair). Why look down on people who make different choices to you?

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  5. "Why look down on people who make different choices to you?"

    Grotesque suggestion! I am advocating young people being given the chance to work or study as they wish. This is not looking down upon anybody. others are suggeting that it might be unwise to gain qualifications because this might cause them to be rejected if they seek to work in a call centre. I would like to see people being able to choose whether they worked in a call centre or applied to university. How on earth is that 'looking down' on anybody?

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  6. "Once again, the astonishing idea that having good qualifications will act as some sort of bar on employment prospects. Best stay in your own spehere and not try and rise above your station in life!"

    It's not an astonishing idea at all. Having good qualifications opens up some possibilities and simultaneously closes down others. The job for which the candidate with the snazzy folder applied was a junior clerical post at one of the 'prestigious' universities you so admire. The applications could be sorted into four piles; school leavers, recent graduates, women 'returners' and older people nearing retirement age who had recently been made redundant.

    School leavers were all considered. Recent graduates were considered only if there was a good reason for them wanting a junior post; they were paying for a part-time MSc course, or saving for a trip round the world. Women returners were almost invariably over-qualified, as were people recently made redundant, so weren't considered because we knew they'd be off as soon as they got a better offer. There was also the issue of how well they would respond to doing the filing and photocopying for people 30 years their junior with considerably less experience.

    School leavers with identical cvs and no work experience were rejected in favour of those with two or three GCSEs (or none) but who had several years of experience working in the family business, or who had done voluntary work. We'd had too many bright but clueless students working in the department before.

    Employers want the best person for the job, not the person with the best qualifications, and they are not going to take the risk of training someone who does a bunk after six months because they suddenly decide they'd rather be an accountant than a plumber, after all.

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  7. "I am advocating young people being given the chance to work or study as they wish."

    Only if they choose to take GCSEs. If they choose alternative routes, their parents are letting them down.

    "thers are suggeting that it might be unwise to gain qualifications because this might cause them to be rejected if they seek to work in a call centre."

    No. They are just pointing out that gaining one set of qualifications will reduce opportunities to gain others and may close or reduce opportunities in *some* employment routes, even when a child prefers that route as opposed to those the child must put up with because they cannot do better.

    "I would like to see people being able to choose whether they worked in a call centre or applied to university. "

    How does not getting GCSE by 16 prevent this? It doesn't.

    "Employers want the best person for the job, not the person with the best qualifications, and they are not going to take the risk of training someone who does a bunk after six months because they suddenly decide they'd rather be an accountant than a plumber, after all."

    I'd agree with this. As an employer even fairly basic manual work takes training and effort on my part and I don't want that wasted on someone who is off at the first chance. We pay relatively well for the type of work we employ people for, even during the training period. The last thing we want is for them to disappear and have to start again from the beginning. Just advertising and finding the right person is difficult enough for a small business, let alone the training.

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  8. "Once again, the astonishing idea that having good qualifications will act as some sort of bar on employment prospects."

    That does exist, my sister has had to hide her PhD over the years because many find the idea of Dr. S as their receptionist, or marketing assistant as rather...odd.


    However I am less convinced that GCSEs, or even a couple of A levels would cause insurmountable "over qualified" issues.


    It is worth noting that not every rejection on the basis of being over qualified is as accurate a claim as it might seem.


    Unsuccessful applicants use it as a shield to dress up rejection when having to let people know they didn't get a job. “I’m victimized by my success !” feels nicer on the tongue and the ego than “somebody else was deemed a better choice than me”.


    Parents can jump on it to protect the feelings of their kids, or their own. (my mum was desperate to convinced the pair of us that four poxy O levels “intimidated” one prospective employer, the fact that I totally ploughed the interview was brushed aside as irrelevant).


    Some interviewers use it as a less “upsetting” let down. The most blatant case I personally know about is a DOS I worked with telling an applicant that his Masters in Linguistics made him over qualified for the job, because when asked why he didn't get the job she didn't fancy telling him that he came across as an utter dick and she’d rather hurl herself off a bridge onto rocks than have him in her staffroom. The guy who got the job had a Masters in Linguistics too, from Harvard I think, but he wasn't a dick. I think more usually it is employed to let people down “gently”, rather than as a devise to avoid getting bopped on the nose.


    So yes it can be an issue, but it can also be wildly overstated as an issue, with the real sticking point being ignored or papered over.


    Specifically when it comes to HEed applicants I can see any old excuse being pulled out of the bag so some employers can avoid saying “Errmmm, we think your education history is really odd and probably dodgy, you could be like socially warped, or something, or not know how to operate “in the real world”, but we have nothing concrete to back up that feeling and you might sue us or your mum might bowl in infuriated and cause a scene or some other outlandish, foundation free imaginary event that is born of prejudice instead of fact if we say that…so we are going to make an excuse that is more palatable”

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  9. Suzgy says-Employers want the best person for the job, not the person with the best qualifications, and they are not going to take the risk of training someone who does a bunk after six months because they suddenly decide they'd rather be an accountant than a plumber, after all.

    i agree with you Employers want the very best person for the job often if some one trys for a postion in our firm if they have to many A Levels or GCSE for this junior officer job they will be rejected because in the past we have had people who have left within 6 months for a better job! employers want some one who will stay long term and we have found that people with no or just a few GCSE stay much longer and we had one girl who started here with no GCSE and she is now sales manger!

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  10. We have also had young Adults who just because they have a few A Levels think they know it all! did not fit in and refused to make the tea! have found that young adults with no GCSE or A levels where far more willing to do the so called boring jobs such as filing or answering the phone and yes taking turns to make the tea! maybe these young adults could see how lucky there where to have a job!

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  11. I was trying to find out why plumbers had such a downer on their apprentices having qualifications and discovered a discussion between plumbers who employ apprentices on day release type of things, claiming that the kids often needed five GCSEs inc maths/English to apply for courses.

    I think the “five or more” is an exaggeration, but I did discover that making GSCE passes an entry requirement is far from unusual. Maths and English being the most frequently stated.

    Couple of examples

    http://www.emagister.co.uk/full_time_plumbing_city_guilds_level_2_milton_keynes_courses-cinst-318841.htm (won’t let me copy paste, three gcses grades A-C in maths/english/science required)



    “Name: Cornwall College

    Apprenticeship type: Plumbing Level 2

    Location: Cornwall

    Start dates: September 2010

    Who is this course for?
    This course is for anyone between the ages of 16 and 24, working in an appropriate trainee plumber?s role.

    What are the entry requirements?
    You must be fully employed within your chosen career path and have sufficient GCSE qualifications, ideally Maths and English at Grade C, in order to undertake the scheme.”
    http://www.notgoingtouni.co.uk/jobs/view/406/Plumbing_Apprenticeship


    “Advanced plumbing apprentice
    Glasgow G
    apprenticeship training
    position: - advanced plumbing apprentice salary: £200 per week location: glasgow, scotland hours: 40 hours per week, flexibility required as ...of employment. -must have achieved technical certificate level 2 plumbing c&g 6129 -maths & english gcse grade a-c minimum -...
    reed - 29/07/2010”
    http://jobs.yakaz.co.uk/plumbing-apprenticeships-in-glasgow

    ____________________________

    And while I was pootling about I discovered other industries can take a similar stance.
    ______________________________________

    “The Audi Apprenticeship Programme takes on young people between the ages of 16-19 with 4 GCSEs at grade C or above. Audi is currently recruiting for technician apprentices, paint and body apprentices, and parts apprentices in centres around the UK. “….


    “Carillion also offers three year apprenticeships for the Roads and Rail industries. To join the Roads Apprenticeship Programme, applicants need 2 A Levels in Maths and Science subjects at grade C or equivalent. For the Rail Apprenticeships, candidates need a minimum of 4 GCSEs including Maths, English and a Science subject at grade C (or equivalent). …..
    (http://www.youthspace.haringey.gov.uk/home/opportunities4u/careers_and_advice/hotapprenticeships.htm)



    At this point my (RIP) grandmother’s proclamation in 1982 of “at the rate we are going they’ll need four O levels just so they can dig a hole in the road !!!” sounds rather prophetic.


    I don’t believe that all and every course or apprenticeship will require educational qualifications, but given that it is likely the most oversubscribed ones will be the ones using the qualifications bar to allow them to be more choosy, I can’t see how taking GCSEs, or even A levels with an aim to going on to a vocational route can be seen as undesirable, let alone a roadblock.


    Here are three being featured for plumbing apprenticeships, Marcus looks like he may be battling a disadvantage up against the other two. It doesn’t help that the “matured” bit reads between the lines as “was little toerag at school and that is why he is the only one without a nice shiny GCSEs to waggle.
    http://www.cityofbristol.ac.uk/employers/apprenticeships/recruit-plumbing-apprentice.html


    I do wonder if that is why GCSEs are being used as a qualifier for entry, to weed out the ones who were troublemakers at school to avoid potentially employing a dead weight in the workplace who thinks “bunking off” and “talking back” is as valid in employment as it is at school.

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  12. "Only if they choose to take GCSEs. If they choose alternative routes, their parents are letting them down."

    No, I specifically mentioned alternative routes:


    "By not making provision for GCSEs, or ensuring that the child studies for another qualification such as Open University credits, parents are putting their children at a grave disadvantage"

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  13. Thanks for the stuff about apprenticeships, Sarah. I have seen young people round here fail to get on courses for this sort of thing because they did not have any GCSEs. Blank periods during secondary education also look bad. I have seen these being assumed to be due to exclusion. 'Home education' covers quite a few scenarios.

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  14. "By not making provision for GCSEs, or ensuring that the child studies for another qualification such as Open University credits, parents are putting their children at a grave disadvantage"

    So why the insistence on the importance of GCSEs or equivalent qualifications by age 16? There are lots of BTEC courses available from age 16 that provide a qualification equivalent to 5 GCSEs. Two of my children have completed these courses over the last few years before going on to higher level courses with absolutely no qualifications at 16. One has just started looking for a part time job whilst taking a level 3 course and has been offered 2 interviews so far. These are positions that could easily become full time well paid jobs if they do well whilst there.

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  15. It may well be that the company mentioned with the A level hate going on, only retains only those with few to no qualifications because they are the ones with fewer exit options, while everybody else heads for the hills via a CV that stands out from the crowd.

    O levels and yes, A levels too, were seen by employers as a plus on a CV for entry level office jobs even when I was a school leaver.
    That is well before they learned to have any expectations about maybe snaring a graduate (since they were decidedly far rarer in those days) and poshing up the job description accordingly.

    Given that many opportunities to enter a trade now ask for some GCSEs at entry level (just saw a school leaver tyre fitter position that wanted FIVE GCSEs) it seems weird that that office based employers would have done an "against the tide" U turn and decided they'd really rather employ the people who have few to no educational qualifications and bin all the applications from those with 8 GCSEs, and a couple of A levels (especially A levels in useless stuff like English or IT).

    The reason I don’t believe it for a minute is because like it or not the pervasive image of a school leaver with few to no GCSEs is that they must be -

    Thick
    Lazy
    Trouble
    or all three.

    Especially since the popular belief is that they practically give A* at GCSE free with a box of cornflakes these days so many people believe you’d have to make only a minimal amount of effort to pick up at least five Cs.

    That perception is a barrier that can be insurmountable when your first foot in the door is via an impersonal application form. Not many are skilled enough at writing CVs to persuade somebody to take a leap of faith, lay off with the prejudice, and at least give them an interview either.

    This is a quote from the most optimistic article I could find entitled "Failure at GCSE is no bar to jobs", (written in 2006, BEFORE the economy went bent and we were looking at massive rates of unemployment,) just so you don't think I am cherry picking...

    "But the survey of 412 employers for the Learning and Skills Council also found that school-leavers with few qualifications will have to overcome employers' prejudices.

    Their CVs would be ignored by 15 per cent of employers, and eight out of 10 would think they would struggle to do the job. Nearly four in 10 students last year failed to get five good GCSEs or vocational equivalents, and half of them dropped out of education and training altogether."

    (http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=2279620)

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  16. " So why the insistence on the importance of GCSEs or equivalent qualifications by age 16. "

    My preference for GCSEs at 16, as well as the higher level courses on top, is so where more than one candidate looks promising my kid doesn't risk get passed over for a job because there is a question mark in the mind of the interviewer as to why there is a gap instead of GCSEs at 16 ....and an employer who might be loath to take a chance on the unknown and have to start recruiting all over again is more likely to go with a safer "standard route" bet that "ticks all the boxes".

    A GCSE level qualification gap is not so much of an issue when you have decades of work experience under your belt, but right at the start it is an area that gets a lot of focus and consideration because your only real “work ethic\stickability history” that is visible for judgment is the educational one. If it looks “odd” or “off” it can get unfairly negative attention and people can leap to conclusions about why that gap is there, because “Is s/he reliable ?” is often in the heads of people interviewing younger people and not usually in a “assuming you are” sort of way.

    I’d rather present something that does a good facsimile of the standard and offer “extra” stuff on top to gain an edge as it were, rather than offer something non standard and hope that the “extra” stuff compensates.

    Especially if it looks like this recession is here for the long haul. SofT might well have to get on and off the “new entry” unemployment tredmill several as company after company lets staff go, the last in is often the first out, the younger recruits are often the most dispensable.

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  17. "My preference for GCSEs at 16, as well as the higher level courses on top, is so where more than one candidate looks promising my kid doesn't risk get passed over for a job because there is a question mark in the mind of the interviewer as to why there is a gap instead of GCSEs at 16."

    I suppose it depends on the type of job you are interested in. My child has applied for 4 jobs working with mentally or physically disabled adults and has 3 interviews to attend. They have a BTEC qualification equivalent to GCSEs but no GCSEs.

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  18. Anecdote jackpot just hit (why doesn’t that ever happen when I play the lottery ?)


    Sir Roddy Llewellyn's daughter, aged 23, with three A levels changed her mind about going to uni and .... is training to be a plumber.

    ___

    There's allegedly a positive hoard of graduate handymen, including plumbers, at the company - 0800 Handyman

    "The majority of Bruce's franchisees and handymen are graduates themselves, many of whom have given up successful, well-paid jobs to join the company"

    _____

    I'm finding references all over the shop that the majority of the Polish workforce (famed apparently for plumbers who turn up, do the job, charge the right price and clean up before they leave --> please see my jealous face) are graduates fleeing 25% graduate unemployment at home.

    ____


    Dr Karl Gensberg a molecular biologist and professor at Birmingham University gave up his academic career to become a plumber.

    _________________

    It is not data, it is only anacdote, but there is hope if you have A levels or a degree ....and then decide you want to be a plumber.

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  19. But what's the difference between having to start from scratch to train as a plumber or having to start from scratch to gain A levels? In both cases it's going to take a few years, isn't it?

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  20. But what's the difference between having to start from scratch to train as a plumber or having to start from scratch to gain A levels? In both cases it's going to take a few years, isn't it?


    ____________

    Well in terms of a CV this is easier on the eye

    Education --Plumber Training---Plumber

    Than this.

    Plumber Training---Return to education---more training? more education?--job


    I was responding in the main to the notion that GCSEs or A levels are a liability if you later chose to go in for vocational training. But since you ask…..


    I'm in no hurry for my son to enter the workforce.

    I don't see higher education as "a waste of time" or "unnecessary expense". Regardless of the future work of a person.


    Even if he never uses it in the conventional sense, just like his father, it has a value in its own right over and above what its potential is to add to your earnings.

    I’ll take that for my boy, I don’t actually have any real preferences in terms of work. Although I’d prefer it wasn’t something that involved him getting shot at. Or fast cars. Or busty women disrobing. But I do want him to aim for a university education (or equiv.) because I can’t see how it can do anything other than expand his horizons in terms of success, options, freedom and enjoyment, be he a plumber or a physicist.

    He’ll only be young once and adult life with all its responsibilities is very long in comparison. Why on earth would I not want him to take advantage of the relatively “unfettered by responsibility” nature of education while he was still growing and developing into a man so he has more time to learn about and think about the directions open to him, particularly since it will give him immediate advantages once he has made the transition ?

    I’m thinking tortoise, not hare, in the race called “world of work”. Taking his time getting of the starting blocks sounds great to me.

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  21. And I employed a 16 year old (in my SME) two years ago, who was utterly failed by school, with no GCSEs, as an admin assistant. I trained her up, helped her with college work and now she has a qualification as a motorbike mechanic.

    Nowt to do with home education. But she had no GCSEs. She was willing to work and learn. And she had some common sense. I have employed about 15 different people over the last 20 years or so. I have NEVER asked for their GCSEs (even before I ever heard of Home ed or had any children) as I thought them utterly irrelevant.

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  22. "I don't see higher education as "a waste of time" or "unnecessary expense". Regardless of the future work of a person."

    Nor do I. I also don't see the pursuit of qualifications as the only way, or even the best way, to gain an education. Someone can be extremely well educated without having a single qualification but I doubt Simon would see the point.

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  23. Alison, that is really nice. I like to hear about people reaching out to help out rather than push heads a bit further under.

    Problem is it makes you a bit notable, not run of the mill.

    I can't base my educational choices for my son on the prospect of him encountering a really lovely person who will bend over backwards to help him get in + get on when he applies for the job of his dreams.

    If you were the norm people would have given up taking qualifications years ago thanks to the government falling over itself to warn students off taking exams unnecessarily and save a bundle that they can use to pay against the deficit.

    There aren’t enough of people like you to offer the needed opportunities for the kids that leave school with few to no qualifications, let alone the HEed kids on top.

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  24. "There aren’t enough of people like you to offer the needed opportunities for the kids that leave school with few to no qualifications, let alone the HEed kids on top."

    Well there have been two of us on this one little blog, so maybe they are not as rare as you think?

    ReplyDelete
  25. Hi there, Simone here, replying to Anonymous. Well...there are a lot of Anonymouses (Anonymi?) on here, so I'm replying to the one who said:
    Someone can be extremely well educated without having a single qualification but I doubt Simon would see the point.

    Uh...of course someone can be educated without having a single qualification, and lack of qualifications doesn't make that education any less. But the truth is that prospective employers might not see it that way. That's not to imply that the sole purpose of education is to get a job, something I disagree with vehemently; but that is both the main purpose for many young people, and the way employers will look on it. An employer is hardly like to look at a CV and say "Oh, no qualifications. But hey! S/he's got a great knowledge of fish of the amazon which s/he gained due to hir own interest! Wow!"

    ReplyDelete
  26. I can't understand why people want to be so dependent on other people giving them full-time employment. Seems like a fickle, hostile environment to me. A bit like being in a cattle market. Why would you put yourself in that situation?

    ReplyDelete
  27. "I can't understand why people want to be so dependent on other people giving them full-time employment."

    ___

    Both my husband and I are self employed, and like it that way, but there is no superiority complex about it.

    There are pros and cons to both.

    I think there are more benefits to self employment than most people realize, but on the other hand I now have this evil boss who slavedrives me all the time and won’t let me pull a sickie. Even when I am actually ill.

    ___


    "Well there have been two of us on this one little blog, so maybe they are not as rare as you think? "

    You don't think that perhaps both of you being involved in HE and arguing against a pressing need for HEed student to gain standard qualifications might have just a little to do with your perspective as an employer?

    Which might give a slightly skewed result when compared to the bulk of employers ?

    ReplyDelete
  28. "You don't think that perhaps both of you being involved in HE and arguing against a pressing need for HEed student to gain standard qualifications might have just a little to do with your perspective as an employer?"

    Particularly since one of the people, Alison Sauer, actually runs an HE related consultancy and might find it a good selling point to have employed home educated young people!

    ReplyDelete
  29. "You don't think that perhaps both of you being involved in HE and arguing against a pressing need for HEed student to gain standard qualifications might have just a little to do with your perspective as an employer?"

    Not really. I can't see what point GCSEs would have for the work we want done. It's a practical, physical job and a degree wouldn't make you more capable of doing it, let alone GCSEs.

    ReplyDelete
  30. "Uh...of course someone can be educated without having a single qualification"

    When you read a comment you need to take note of what the person was replying to. Sarah made the point that she didn't "see higher education as "a waste of time" or "unnecessary expense". Regardless of the future work of a person." Agreeing with that one point doesn't mean I don't think qualifications sometimes have their uses.

    "An employer is hardly like to look at a CV and say "Oh, no qualifications. But hey! S/he's got a great knowledge of fish of the amazon which s/he gained due to hir own interest! Wow!""

    CVs are not the only route into employment. Quite often jobs are gained as a result of direct contact with a person either through recommendation or through voluntary work, especially with more practical work. Someone with years of experience working with horses for two or three days a week (but no GCSEs), is more likely to be considered for a job working with horses than someone with 2 weeks work experience and the odd weekend helping out at the local riding stables and a handful of GCSEs (as my niece found out to her expense).

    ReplyDelete
  31. "An employer is hardly like to look at a CV and say "Oh, no qualifications. But hey! S/he's got a great knowledge of fish of the amazon which s/he gained due to hir own interest! Wow!""

    Might be useful if they want to work work with tropical fish. If they are that interested in them, they might want to.

    ReplyDelete
  32. I think the point I was trying to make was that GCSE's aren't always relevant. I don't only run a consultancy Simon. I am also a Town Councillor and Vice-Chair / founder member / Trustee of "Enterprising Pendle". This means I am passionate about Enterprise and know a LOT of SMEs. Most SMEs I know, unless they require a particular skill such as hairdressing or accountancy etc, are not interested in the slightest in GCSEs because a person with GCSE Maths for example can't neccesarily add up....they can just pass an exam!

    Outside of the public sector SMEs collectively employ more people than FTSE 100 companies. And usually with recruitment in an SME it is about who you know and how well you know them.

    On the other hand of course my husband is a senior Project Manager in the chamical industry. He also doesn't care about GCSEs but he wouldn't let someone close to the plant he is working in without a degree in Chemical Engineering!

    ReplyDelete
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