Yesterday an adherent of the Taking Children Seriously movement made a few comments here. I have for some while been toying with the idea of making a post about Taking Children Seriously. Disciples of Taking Children Seriously seldom seem to announce themselves as openly as this person did, preferring generally to limit themselves to making coded hints about their ideology. Phrases to watch out for include 'common preference', 'Popperian epistemology' and any reference to the inherent rationality of children. Another characteristic of the followers of Sarah Fitz-Claridge and David Deutsch, the founders of this movement is that however gentle they may be with their children they are like ferocious tigers when verbally defending the doctrine. I must marshal my arguments and prepare carefully if I am to say anything at all about this!
I want today just to reflect upon the wisdom of allowing children and young people to make decisions about their lives. I shall do this by talking of three adult women known to me personally and their reactions in later life to the decisions which their parents allowed them to make. This is not meant to prove anything; these are only personal anecdotes. Rather, it is to get people to think about the wisdom of allowing children too great a degree of autonomy in their lives.
The first woman is now in her fifties. She was more or less a contemporary of mine in the late sixties and early seventies, although a few years younger than me. Most teenage girls at that time had to go be pretty cunning about having sex with their boyfriends. They would tell their parents that they were going round Mary's house to revise for their GCEs and then instead go to a boyfriend's house. Because a lot of families did not have telephones in those days, the chances of being rumbled were low. The parents of one fourteen year old girl were very laid back and progressive and hated hypocrisy and underhanded dealing of this sort. The also fancied themselves very liberated and 'with it' about sex. They told their daughter that if she was going to have sex with a boy, she must tell them and not keep it a secret. There was, after all nothing shameful about sex! They even helped her with contraception. She was allowed to have a boyfriend stay over before her fifteenth birthday. This led to a succession of lovers and she became pregnant at sixteen. Obviously, because things were so free and easy, she had sex a lot more than her friends and therefore had more chance of becoming pregnant. When her friends went off to university at eighteen, she was living in a council house with what was then called an illegitimate baby.
One might think that this woman would have been grateful to her parents for their progressive and right on attitude to sex. She was not and this became the most awful grudge against them in later years as she became herself an adult. Even now, she is bitter about this and blames her parents for the fact that she did not go to university like her friends. She says that at that age she was a child and it was her parents duty to protect her. She believes strongly that they failed in this.
The other two cases are more trivial. One is woman whose dentist recommended when she was twelve that she have braces fitted to her teeth to prevent them protruding. At that time, forty years ago, braces were far less common than they are today and many girls in particular hated them passionately. She made such a fuss about the idea, that her mother told her that if she didn't want them, then she need not. As the child grew older, the teeth stuck out even more until she looked like Bugs Bunny. This led to her becoming very self-conscious about smiling, which affected her life a good deal. She had remedial work done in her thirties. Her mother told her at that time that it had been her decision not to have braces, to which she retorted crisply, 'I was a child. You should have made me'.
The final example is of a girl who was learning to play the piano. Like all children, she hated playing scales and practising. She used to moan about this to her mother, who told her that if she did not like doing it, then she could give up the piano. This was unexpected, but having been complaining so much about it, the girl felt that she could not do otherwise than agree to do give up the piano. She still, many years later, regrets that she did not continue with the piano and carry on learning. She too has a bit of a grudge and thinks that her mother should have been firmer with her.
As I said, these stories are not proof of anything. They indicate though that even when a parent feels that she is respecting her child's wishes and allowing her to make her own decisions, there might still be unpleasant and wholly unexpected consequences. Often, children get into the way of complaining about things and trying to assert their wishes. It can be disconcerting and a little alarming when their parents take them at their word and allow them to decide about things which may have serious implications for them in the future.
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I know far more people who regret having their childhood preferences ignored, than the opposite.
ReplyDeleteI don't think there's anything very useful to be gained by comparing whether or not people were forced to play the piano and how they feel later on! I think that the significant thing is whether or not children feel honestly respected and loved.
ReplyDeleteI was a teenager in a family where I could choose about most things in my life - including dental treatment, music practice and sex! I was also brought up with a great deal of love and respect. I feel that my choices are my own - the good ones and the bad ones. But perhaps more significant is that I don't doubt that my parents always cared for me to the best of their ability and with my best interests at heart. That means that I don't bear grudges or hang on to decades old resentment. After all, if you want to study at degree level, get your teeth fixed or play the piano then you can do those things at any point in your life.
Webb says-She says that at that age she was a child and it was her parents duty to protect her. She believes strongly that they failed in this.
ReplyDeleteWhat about if a child feels strongly that he/she should have been home educated but was forced to go to a state school? answer webb takes no notice and send child to sate school?
'After all, if you want to study at degree level, get your teeth fixed or play the piano then you can do those things at any point in your life.'
ReplyDeleteHowever, as anyone who has ever tried to do any of those things later in life knows, it can become incredibly difficult. Dh would love to get his teeth fixed, but at £3,000 it is unlikely to ever happen now. I tried to learn the piano in my 30's, struggling on for a year or so, but my fingers simply wouldn't do what was expected of them at that point in my life and I had to acknowledge defeat, despite being highly motivated. And many, many women, in particular, find studying later in life extremely difficult due to their ongoing family responsibilities. One of my friends was about to start a degree course when her mother became disabled. That, and her gandbaby-sitting responsibilities meant she felt unable to. She doesn't mind, she loves her family, but a degree is simply not on the horizon any more.
I thought we'd, most of us, acknowledged here that 'being able to do these things later in life' is not always viable?
As with most things, I think there needs to be a balance. It's possible and often desiable, in my experience, to encourage children to strive, without coercing them. But it seems to me that the definition of 'coercive' has changed beyond all recognition in the last 15 years (in the HE community).
Mrs Anon
"I tried to learn the piano in my 30's, struggling on for a year or so, but my fingers simply wouldn't do what was expected of them at that point in my life and I had to acknowledge defeat, despite being highly motivated."
ReplyDeleteMaybe you were just not suited to piano playing and the same would have applied at 13? John Holt began learning to play the cello at 40 and apparently learnt to play it very well. There are also a few examples of late starters on this discussion thread:
http://www.talkclassical.com/4010-can-adult-learn-music.html
Consider also that there are 100s of possible things a parent could force a child to continue with despite the child's current feelings. What are the chances that the parents will choose the one thing the child, as an adult, would have wanted their parents to enforce? For instance, one of my children had tried rock climbing, ice skating, drums, guitar, fishing, skate boarding and more and has given them all up but is now happily spending hours a day on art. Maybe they would never have discovered art if I kept them learning the first thing they tried? Maybe the will go off art and say as an adult that they wish I had made them continue with guitar lessons?
This is a hot issue in our house; the issue being as to whether I should force my daughter to have a blood test; she is 18 (so an adult) but she is autistic so that affects her ability to make a decision based on all the facts. I can only say that this weeks attempts to persuade her have ended in me bearing some rather spectacular bruises. Round 2 is next Wednesday; she has agreed to go back, because I have coerced her (I won't take her to an activity that I run until she does so). Doubtless I shall get shouted down for doing so, but honestly what am I supposed to do? Without the blood test, she cannot resume the medication that she needs to take; without the medication she faces pain and possible shortened life span. Now she knows all this, although her typical response to discussing what the benefits are is to stick her hands over her ears and yell.....
ReplyDeleteDucking....
"But it seems to me that the definition of 'coercive' has changed beyond all recognition in the last 15 years (in the HE community)."
ReplyDeleteAccording to Wikipedia the definition of coercion is, the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force. There is also an article on coercion here, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/coercion/. Though I haven't read much of it yet it includes this:
Sometimes the term “coercion” is used in popular speech with a quite broad sense. For instance, one hears “coercion” used to describe social pressures (e.g., the need to conform to peer expectations or to placate one's parents); or the constraining or manipulative effects of advertising, one's upbringing, or the structuring of society more generally (e.g., the necessity of participating in a capitalist economy). It is also sometimes treated as a quite general concept encompassing almost any sort of interpersonal infringement on one's rights. Such uses are not wholly foreign to philosophical discussions (see, e.g., Ripstein, 2004). Nonetheless, the following discussion will focus on a narrower sense of the term more in line with its use by major historical philosophical writers and contemporary theorists alike. This usage will rule out, by stipulation, such things as mere disapproval, emotional manipulation, or wheedling. (What is “ruled in” is subject to dispute, as is discussed below.)
continued...
So maybe the discussion that follows is more consistent with your view of coercion, though even within that discussion there is an assumption that parents have coercive power over children:
ReplyDeleteConversely, one may be undominated by anyone else, yet lack (for various reasons) many of the different valuable options that might be available to some who are highly subject to the power of others (e.g., adolescent children of wealthy parents, or prisoners in minimum-security facilities).
It sounds as though the definition of coercion used by TCS is consistent with general views and usage. I think everyone uses coercion in the sense described above, I just attempt to keep it at a minimum. This may be a mistake (we are all fallible) but if it is, it does not seem to have adversely affected the characters of my young people, though it's possible they would have been even kinder, more helpful and have even better problem solving skills than they currently possess if I had used more coercion, who knows. But can you really claim that you do not coerce your children or that parent-led home educators do not use coercion? If you can claim this you are a much better person than I am. If it is the case that children in parent-led educating households fully agree with everything they are asked to do and freely choose to do it (or not do it if they prefer) would this not mean that they are autonomously educated? If this is not the case, how can this not be considered coercive?
PS apologies if my posts appear multiple times, they keep disappearing.
"Doubtless I shall get shouted down for doing so, but honestly what am I supposed to do?"
ReplyDeleteI have every sympathy with you having been in a similar position. Without injections one of my children would die. Luckily this has been a good enough reason for my needle phobic child to agree to injections but not without lots of discussions and trying various strategies to make it easier for them. However, I've no doubt I would have resorted to the worst kind of coercion if it had reached the point of life and death and it's entirely possible that subconsciously the child sensed this so, although the appeared to agree they may actually have been coerced, it's impossible to say. Many times we fail, maybe because we revert to our own upbringing or lack creativity through lack of early practice, we can only do our best. As I've said previously, Our children seem much more creative and quick at finding common preferences than their parents, possibly because we have encouraged this approach. The hope is that the next generation will be even better as a result.
Hi Mrs Anon,
ReplyDeleteYes, of course you're right that things aren't always easy to do later in life. I studied part-time for my MA while our children were little and, believe me, I don't make light of the difficulties of combining caring responsibilities and other things.
But the point I was trying to make is that I think that if you feel that you were truly loved and respected as a child you are unlikely to carry around a lot of resentment about things you feel your parents did or didn't do.
The thing about balance is that I shouldn't imagine that any of us would agree on what that balance would look like. I imagine that I might seem incredibly indulgent or slack to some people. To plenty of my friends I think I look like a control freak!
'I imagine that I might seem incredibly indulgent or slack to some people. To plenty of my friends I think I look like a control freak!'
ReplyDeletelol! Me too, except that it's my partner who thinks I'm a control freak, because I won't let him be a control freak with my children!
Three other women.
ReplyDeleteA girl who was a talented musician was made to practice every day by her mother, who had had to fight her own family to become a professional musician herself. The mother supervised the practice rigorously, and if the girl objected, told her that it was wicked to waste her talent. The girl learnt to hate playing music and gave up as soon as she could stand up to her mother. She's now in her 50's and regrets not being able to join in with her friends who get together for regular jam sessions.
Another girl was made to sit at the table until she had eaten everything on her plate. She was not allowed sweets or junk food of any kind, except on rare special occasions. She is in her 50's and struggled with eating disorders for years, yo-yoing between anorexia and compulsive eating, until therapy enabled her to achieve an uneasy balance.
ReplyDeleteA third girl was forbidden to go out with boys until she had finished her A levels at a single-sex school. She pretended to be visiting girlfriends when she went out with boys. She didn't realise that she was going to places where girls with bad reputations went, because she was very naive, and she had a few encounters with predatory men. She moved as far away from home as possible at the earliest opportunity. She was raped, got into drugs and alcohol, and had a couple of abortions, all without the knowledge of her parents. Now in her 50's, she has several children by different fathers, and has never been able to form a lasting relationship.
'But the point I was trying to make is that I think that if you feel that you were truly loved and respected as a child you are unlikely to carry around a lot of resentment about things you feel your parents did or didn't do.'
ReplyDeleteWell, that is certainly true :-)
There are different ways of showing a child respect, though. When I pushed (strongly encouraged) my children to do things outside their comfort zone, I had to hold two ideas of respect in tension. The first was respect for their current personhood and the second was respect for their future, the one which they were incapable of imagining.
However, when we get the balance/tension wrong, if the child is LOVED, we can hope that will make up for our mistakes.
My son recently told me that he had had everything he could have needed when he was growing up, which astonished me becuse we were quite poor and were constantly feeling guilty for not being able to give our kids enough when they were younger. His impression of his childhood though, is one of plenty, not want. That can only be because we loved them enough.
Mrs Anon
'Maybe you were just not suited to piano playing and the same would have applied at 13? John Holt began learning to play the cello at 40 and apparently learnt to play it very well.'
ReplyDeleteYes, well, it was bloomin' Holt who inspired me to try in the first place. I'm still annoyed with him.
And it was the piano I wanted to play.
Mrs Anon
"The final example is of a girl who was learning to play the piano. Like all children, she hated playing scales and practising. She used to moan about this to her mother, who told her that if she did not like doing it, then she could give up the piano. This was unexpected, but having been complaining so much about it, the girl felt that she could not do otherwise than agree to do give up the piano."
ReplyDeleteTCS is not about agreeing to everything a child wants without question or discussion. In this example, the parent might have discussed ways of increasing the enjoyment of practising, possibly by finding other people who could practice different instruments together, for instance. I always found playing in a group more enjoyable than practice alone. The fact the girl felt she *had* to give up is an indication that she felt coerced into giving up, so not TCS.
'There are different ways of showing a child respect, though. When I pushed (strongly encouraged) my children to do things outside their comfort zone, I had to hold two ideas of respect in tension. The first was respect for their current personhood and the second was respect for their future, the one which they were incapable of imagining.'
ReplyDeleteAlthough my children were autonomous, I do agree with you. You feel your way, don't you? I didn't push, more like gently leaning until I met resistance. For example, one of my children loved to play music, but often became frustrated and wanted to give up because she couldn't reproduce the sound in her head. Gentle help and encouragement got her through the frustration and enabled her to achieve what she was aimimg for. She gets enormous pleasure out of playing now.
'His impression of his childhood though, is one of plenty, not want. That can only be because we loved them enough.'
:)
Hi Simon,
ReplyDeleteIs your point that these cases are examples of having "taken a child seriously", because I strongly suspect that they aren't.
'Is your point that these cases are examples of having "taken a child seriously", '
ReplyDeleteNo, I was just musing really as to where allowing children to have what they think is their wishes to be respected. I was not drawing any general conclusions about where taking children seriously might lead!
I advocate allowing children more power to make their own decisions. We can debate the exact extent to which they should have the power to do so; I will do so now but will limit my comments to the women that are the subject of the article. In all three cases, I agree, despite the women's opinions to the contrary, with the liberties their parents gave them (although in the case of the girl who got pregnant, they might have fostered better choices). I will comment in light of my own experiences growing up. First of all, the woman who regretted that her mother had not forced her to stick with the piano. When I was 12, my mother forced me to take up the piano and made me keep at it for two years. It sucked. Once I was allowed to quit, I never kept it up. To this day, I wish I could have simply refused to do so. There is no "need" to learn the piano, it's not a health or safety issue.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the second story, I wasn’t made to wear braces either and am glad I wasn’t. My teeth are not horribly crooked, but I have one or two permanent teeth that never grew in, buck teeth with a big gap, etc. I grew up in the 80s and 90s, when braces were not quite at the epidemic level they are today. I never wanted them and was constantly afraid that the dentist would recommend them. Fortunately, he didn't push them. Once around the age of 13 when he did mention I could have some kind of work done on my mouth. I told him I'd rather have two of my teeth knocked out and that settled it. I'm happy I was given a choice and in fact am actively glad that my teeth have not been fiddled with. Perhaps some people with genuine dental problems will get health benefits from orthodontia, but I think in many cases, it’s largely an esthetic standard that the dental industry has popularized to make money and that fewer people “need” braces for health reasons than is claimed by the industry. You shouldn’t impose popular esthetic body standards on your child. It may be costly or an inconvenience for that woman to be paying for braces as an adult, but not everyone will end up wanting them later. At least one famous actress, I forget which one, refused braces when they were offered to her as a teen and stands by her decision.
Regarding the woman who got pregnant at 16, I agree with her parents letting her have sex, but wonder if they could have given her better sexual education. Parents (and schools) should provide a thorough sexual education, teach about contraception, and the consequences of getting pregnant at that age, including possibly choosing between abortion (generally more accessible today in the Western world than it was when that woman was growing up) and putting the baby up for adoption. Of course, prevention is better, but that should be education, instilling a sense of responsibility, suggesting you wait until you think you're ready, and providing access to contraception, not forbidding sex.
I suggest these women could make a paradigm shift and take responsibility for the decisions they made, rather than put it on their parents. You could use this logic to make a child do ANYTHING in case she regrets it later. Trouble is, you don't know what your child will regret not doing and what choices they will be happy for. The alternative is to provide children with guidance, advice and information, let them make more final decisions, and then teach them to take responsibilities for the consequences (I'm not implying that parents should never, ever make any decisions for their children, but they certainly shouldn't have the quasi-absolute power over that they seem to have today). I think one reason why those women can say "I wish my parents had made me..." is because they have internalized the prevalent social meme of having uncritical respect for parental authority. I, OTOH, question the extent of the power that my parents had over me, resent things I was made to do, and don't blame my parents for any choices that I was allowed to make.