Thursday, 6 September 2012
The Education select committee hearing on September 5th 2012
The witnesses who gave evidence about home education to the select committee were a remarkably homogenous bunch; all female, all white, all aged between forty and sixty five, all well spoken and probably all well educated as well. Most intriguing of all, every single one of them spoke in that same quiet, patient way that teachers and social workers do. This was eerie! In a sense, the whole session was a little like the three card trick. Many people are concerned that not all parents are capable of providing a proper education to their children and so eight women are presented who nobody in their senses would doubt for a moment are able to give their kids a decent education. It would have been interesting to put eight of the less sane and articulate home educators in front of the MPs and see what they made of them.
Despite the fact that Graham Stuart is now the Chair of the committee, I picked up on the fact that there seemed to be an appetite for some sort of registration among other members. This is because two facts emerged clearly. The first was that nobody knows how many children in this country are not at school because their parents are supposedly educating them at home. The second was that nobody has the least idea how many of those children are actually receiving an education. There were valiant attempts to obscure these facts, notably when Fiona Nicholson made the astonishingly untruthful claim that we know precisely how many children are being educated at home, because we have the figures from the local authorities. Incidentally, I watched with bated breath when Fiona was asked whether she was in favour of a simple scheme which would mean the registration of all home educated children. Great amusement was caused three years ago, when she gave evidence to the select committee at that time. Despite being asked by the then Chair several times, she appeared uncertain as to whether she was in favour of registration and he finally put her down as a ’Don’t know’! This time, she was ready and answered crisply and firmly as soon as the question was asked.
I have an idea that several members of the select committee smelt a rat when presented with such a clearly intelligent and well-informed group of women. They were clearly not typical of the sort of parent with whom many local authorities come into contact and about the children of whom there is such concern. Although there was no talk of monitoring this time, the idea of registration was definitely in the air. I would not be surprised if that actually happened in the end. It would of course not be the end of the matter, particularly if events in Wales follow their current course. Whether compulsory registration of home educated children would be a good or bad thing is a debatable point, but I have an idea that it is the direction that many people’s minds may be moving. It might seem like some to be a reasonable compromise between the wishes of the local authorities and the strong feelings of many home educators; a bare minimum to which few reasonable parents could object.
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As one of the witnesses... the main issue was that with the exception of Graham Stuart, all of the MPs were new - both to Parliament and to the Select Committee. This mean that inevitably there is a re-visiting of old issues- safeguarding, registration and so on. However the point of the Select Comm was to look at LA support, and we tried to focus on that.
ReplyDeleteYes, we may be more articulate collectively than the sort of home educators you are describing, but the point is that if LAs were more supportive, then everyone would benefit. For example you are always criticizing the parents who supposedly take teenage children out of school without any definite education plans and then don't seem to know what to do next. My point was that with funding for increased options, such as 14-16 provision these young people can go to college and study a more appealing course - and that should tick all your (and perhaps a LAs ) boxes - safeguarding - student seen, education - happening.
The problem with registration is that no one believes it will stop there - see Wales!
Ooo er Simon, trying to estimate women's ages seems a bit dangerous! ;-)
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if there is a video of the proceedings? Can you give me a link? I must not have had enough coffee yet as I can't find it at the Parliament site.
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11340
ReplyDeleteold Webb says" all female, all white, all aged between forty and sixty five, all well spoken and probably all well educated as well"
ReplyDeletefor once Webb is right why where no men on the panel i know D Hinds M.P and he knows we home educated Peter since he was 7.I been more than happy to have gone on that panel and told those M.Ps what a rubbish service Hampshire LA provide for us the paying customer.
As for registration you may get calls for it but what will it mean you tell LA i am home educating there then tick box to say you are? or the school tells the LA which most do now.i do no think the money is there to waste on a registration scheme that has any teeth it just be a tick boxing excise
if it does come in no doubt you could registrar in all sorts of ways by phone or email letter carry pigeon or by tractor on person with your LA
Julie was wrong about Hampshire LA i have it in writing that meeting in the home is the best way to see if child is being home educated and require this!
If you had turned up on the panel at some point the police would have been called and you would have been tasered.
DeletePater - you are years out of date - are there any of the same staff even still employed by HCC? The reason that it has changed is that why you have been sitting around moaning some of us have actually tried to get things improved!
ReplyDeletethe staff have all gone i hope Julie they where rubbish.but i kept the letter there wrote and it says meeting home visits is the only way to see if a child is getting a suitable education there not changed! i see NO signs of change where?
Deletei did more than moan i took them on and won! you should told those M.Ps we are the paying customers of the LA and we demand a far higher level of service!
Hampshire service to home educators is rubbish they rude tell lies and could not organizer a bun fight at a bakery.
Me and Peter would have told them
'the main issue was that with the exception of Graham Stuart, all of the MPs were new - both to Parliament and to the Select Committee'
ReplyDeleteFrom one point of view, this was a good thing. I got the impression that they were approaching the matter from the perspective of the ordinary person. It was clear that they were baffled as to why it was not necessary at the very least for home educators to notify their local authority of what they were doing. This is pretty much what most people think I have met a number of people who were surprised to hear that my daughter had never been to school. They were surprised, but not disapproving. All are shocked though to learn that it is possible to do this without telling anybody at all of what you are up to. To that extent, the MPs yesterday reflected the views of their constituents.
It would actually have been fair to have four people like Peter Williams, along with four sensible people like Julie. This would have provided a more balanced and realistic view of home education in this country.
ReplyDeleteit would have been and i told them no thanks to home visits and meeting silly reregistration what a waste of tax payers money!
DeleteI told them we want a far higher level of service from LA as we are the paying customers of any service they provide and we want a proper complaints systems where action is taken over staff who are rude and tell lies!
I be taken those issues up with D Hinds M,P he the M,P for our area!
Which is pretty much what the women did say, in a more polite and intelligent way.
DeletePeter - He is my MP too; and hopefully he got the impressions that all of us want things to improve everywhere , and that there are good and bad examples. What we were asked was how to improve the bad ones.....
DeleteI was a bit shocked that they were all brunettes and felt very aggrieved about that, but then the second bunch came on and and thankfully Julie had grey hair and Zena seemed to be blonde. Phew! Diversity rules!
ReplyDeletelikes brunettes!
DeletePeter, a man was invited from Carshalton Home Educators, but couldn't go and was replaced at the last minute by another woman. I'd have liked to have seen more male home educators there, but they can only choose from those who sent in submissions and the committee were male-dominated so I suppose it balanced out.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking as another of those who was there, on the whole I think I'm complimented, Simon, but I'll prove you right about the homogenous bit because I think Julie is absolutely right!
I am wondering though, how you know that we are any more or less typical of the type of home educating parent that LA's come into contact with than any other group of home educators? If you've got some statistics of what problems LA's have then I think it would be really useful to submit them to the Select Committee because there is such a shortage of hard evidence and such an abundance of the anecdotal sort that we both hate.
i am surprised D hinds M>p never invited us i know him he been to our house over home education.I be contacting him to find out what he up 2!
DeleteAre you? Are you really?
DeleteYou've got to love it when he uses numbers instead of words it's like he really is down with the kids.
DeletePeter - let us try this once more.....
DeleteWhatever the rights and wrongs of what happened to you in the past (and frankly going by your belligerence now it is is to see why things got out of hand).... things have changed.
If you were starting HE now in Hants, no one would insist on a home visit. I know that the letters don't say whatever they used to say, because I helped write them.
Although you couldn't get financial help for things like pencils, you could get support for college funding and exams if you wanted them.
If you did decide to have a home visit you would be visited by someone who knew the law and who also recognized that schools couldn't cater for everyones needs.
You would be sent leaflets for your local HE group and given details as to how to enter for exams, which is you wanted to you could take at one of 2 centres specially set up by the LA for HE students.
So what would you be actually wanting to change?
There started the belligerence not us! and got more than there bargain for telling lies about the law on home education and losing Peter educational work he sent in and then trying to make threats which only made the situation worse for them 2 LEA officers told lies saying you have to have a meeting with them i got it in writing from them!
DeleteI doubt the letter there send has changed much what does it say them? i bet it mentions home visits? that is the policy of HCC home visits?
what does that mean you be visited by some one who knows that schools couldn't cater for every ones needs sounds like he/she be blaming you? why is it never the school fault with those types?
i doubt you would be sent leaflets for your local HE is that what there tell you? loads of times i have to follow up saying you not sent this bit of information he say he had i say but you did not! bloody unless the staff where!
I want changed is a proper complaints system that will take action against LEA officer!and for them to really know the law on home education and no EWS unless there evidence child is in danger.
what centers been set up? none around here?
no help was giving to Peter only lies and half truths.i never come across such a bunch of unless people in all my life
it never change there enjoy annoying people after all its only the tax payer who pays
them
The letter says " you will be offered..."
DeleteLocal group leaflets are given out by the central administrator and all consultants; anyone who rings up is given our phone numbers. Families with secondary aged children are given a leaflet on exams ( written and printed by my local group)
Exam centres are in Basingstoke and Havant.... in fact I could go on for ever but I don't suppose you will listen !
who the hell is the central administrator? consultants? I doubt the staff at the LA got the ability to put the information like that in the letter! he never could at fleet S Mellor he was bloody useless! and so was his boss who i caught out telling lies!
DeleteHCC have a policy of visiting ALL homes of those that home educate and i bet the letters at some point still mention meeting visits monitoring put up a sample letter so we can see Julie?
no one ever offered us exam center at Basingstoke yet there knew Peter was home educated and studying Maths to high level this was confirmed by Dr Tony Ludlow to the LA yet no help given.
its just more of the same what is needed is a proper complaint systems for us the customer
hopefully one day your see the light Julie.
The service we received in 10 years from Hampshire LA was rubbish as i said there could not organize a bun fight at a bakery!
i do enjoy our chats Julie
I have no idea why I keep arguing with you - but I was known to HCC from the beginning and never had a visit and I should think half our HE group refuse an offer of a visit without any problem.
DeleteAs to exams - well the organiser of the Basingstoke centre has posted on here and in fact organised a display in Alton Library a year or so ago in direct response to your complaints. So if you had gone along - then you would have had an avenue to find out....but I believe you told the LA not to contact you??
it kinda fun to argue Julie and hopfully get you to see the light about HCC
Deleteyou can refuse and then it can lead to problems because they do not like it,that the problem some stupid LA officer can dis like a family and cause loads of problems for them on his say so that is what is wrong we need complaint system that works for us the home educator.
i do not believe the letters have changed that much that HCC send to a home educators lets see one i got one we see how different it is?
I told him not to contact us about going to school not about any help he/she may be able to give to Peter he was useless at his job he knew we wanted help but did everything he could to hinder us! i never come across such a unless individual! and he told lies!
is that organizer some one who works for the sin bin place at Basingstoke where the naughty kids are sent if there chucked out of school?that is not an exam center what is her real role? welfare worker? should have gone i guess to annoy her LOL should asked her how much she gets paid there do not like that maybe she visit Alton again one day?
College is going well peter sent a txt to say so!
Er - no - she is a local (unpaid) coordinator for a home group just like me, and the school is a normal comprehensive in Basingstoke!
Deletelets see the new letters that you say HCC send? i bet its just the same old rubbish! about home visits monitoring meeting etc.if its not lets see?
DeleteI never heard anything from her? does she report back to HCC about if your the right type of home educator?
anther lie that is told is that no complaints are ever made to HCC about home education yet when i went to a local home educating group and asked about this many family said we had complained but got no where with our complaints to HCC.
LA officers lie regular its part of the job to lie and hinder customers.i asked him once do you like home education and he could not answer that simple question! and are schools ever wrong about a dispute with a parent and again he could not answer! he was bloody unless you got more sense out of our pet tortoise!
I think you try Julie but you need to open your eyes more.
' If you've got some statistics of what problems LA's have then I think it would be really useful to submit them to the Select Committee because there is such a shortage of hard evidence and such an abundance of the anecdotal sort that we both hate.'
ReplyDeleteThis of course is the problem, Anne. No, of course I don't have any hard statistics, because none exist. Like everybody else, I have only anecdotes from my own experience. I am sure that we both know that there are some home educating parents who are very odd and probably not capable of providing their children with a suitable education. We also know that there are many who are. I was not suggesting that you and the other seven were in the minority, I hope you are not, but rather that it might have been fairer to let the select committee see a few others who were not quite so articulate and well informed. It did give an unbalanced picture, because of course not all home educators are like you and Julie.
'it might have been fairer to let the select committee see a few others who were not quite so articulate and well informed.'
DeleteThe purpose of the enquiry was to discover what assistance Local Authorities could give to Home Educators. Do you really think that inarticulate and ignorant responses would have been more helpful than articulate and well informed ones?
'Zena seemed to be blonde'
ReplyDeleteFar be it from me to be spiteful and catty, but I would be remarkably surprised at her age if that was natural. For all I know to the contrary, she may very well be a brunette.
'was replaced at the last minute by another woman.'
ReplyDeleteSurely a discourteous way of referring to the chap's wife?
'The purpose of the enquiry was to discover what assistance Local Authorities could give to Home Educators. Do you really think that inarticulate and ignorant responses would have been more helpful than articulate and well informed ones?'
ReplyDeleteThere was a very plain subtext to the committee's investigation, which was whether it might be necessary or desirable to have a system of universal registration of home edcuating families. A more representative cross-section of home educating parents might have helped them to examine this question.
What seemed to me to be happening is that the members of the committee were trying to find out whether registration could deliver the improvements to services they assumed home educators wanted.
Delete'A more representative cross-section of home educating parents might have helped them to examine this question.'
How would you find such a representative cross section? Would you give HE parents IQ tests to make sure you have a cross section of intellectual abilities for eg?
Are there any other tests for ignorance/obstinacy/other annoying qualities? ;-)
Sorry, Simon, I didn't know she was his wife. You'll notice that we weren't asked to introduce ourselves to the committee and at the point when we were all introducing ourselves before we went in I was quietly panicking inwardly and didn't register more than 'that's not a bloke.'
ReplyDeleteAs for the subtext to the investigation, we were asked about support so we went and talked about support. Any subtext was brought by the members of the select committee and was outside the terms of the enquiry. As those of us who've gone through exam papers with our children know all too well, a fundamental point if you want to succeed is to answer the question you were asked and not the question you'd have liked to have been asked (or, in this case, am very glad that we weren't asked.)
BTW, did you like Jane's idea of shifting information and first contact about home education to library services? I thought it was a really good one, because it'd also let us be 'seen' out and about in our community which'd deal with a lot of other concerns. And, of course, it'd bring business in to the libraries at a time when they're under threat and we might even be able to expand on it and run book clubs and so on.
'Sorry, Simon, I didn't know she was his wife. '
ReplyDeleteI was only teasing. It just made me laugh to see his wife being called 'another woman'!
'did you like Jane's idea of shifting information and first contact about home education to library services?'
I thought it was a very interesting idea. Like many home educators, we practically lived in libraries and museums when my daughter was little and this would have made perfect sense.
'How would you find such a representative cross section?'
ReplyDeleteHow about sifting through the responses sent into the select committee and choosing a few from paretns with young children who are educating the kids at home? It surely cannot have escaped notice that most of those called as witnesses no longer have children who are being edcuated at home? I think that I shall post about this tomorrow, because it is an interesting point. In the meantime, it is worth bearing in mind that every witness was from an organisation or business and there was nobody who was just an ordinary, home educating parent.
But most (if not all, for all I know) had been an ordinary home educating parent for a number of years.
DeleteWell, that is a really stupid thing to say, Simon!
DeleteOut of all those present, Anne, Hannah, Jayne, Shena and Zena are currently home educating.... and I spend 4 and a half days a week in the presence of other home educators in term time ...which is probably more than anyone else has direct contact. Yes, we were all representing groups - that is why we were asked because they wanted to know about dealings with LAs and collectively we all had extensive knowledge of those dealings.
And who is always complaining when people moan about you having an opinion on home ed now your daughter is at uni?? That would be you, wouldn't it?
Just to inform your musings for tomorrow, Simon, I have an almost 10 and a 12 year old, and I know one other member had gorgeous younger children cos I met them. There were also teenagers watching who 'belonged' to one contributor but I am ashamed to admit that my nerves stopped me working out which one. And I am depressingly ordinary on a good day and my first thought when I was asked was 'Why on earth are they scraping the bottom of the barrel?'
ReplyDeleteThe other point is that those with young children may not have the luxury of time to make a submission while those who have been through the system will have some idea of what would have made their path easier. I'm not saying the old guard (In which I include you as an honourable member) have all the answers because the situation is constantly evolving, but it would be daft to ignore their knowledge and experience simply because they were no longer current home educators
old Webb has no answers only a re hash of Badman crazy ideas which he and his daughter fully supported! Webb is a cockroach of the lowest form a traitor to home educators.
DeleteAren't you the crazy guy who fights himself in the street?
Deleteno that is you when your drunk do you hit your kid to?
DeleteNever have, I don't drink and have never plugged them into a chess software package.
Deleteits ok you can tell us a here about your drink problem and how it has affected your life and when social services find out you refused they help leading to court action do you still see your children or was all contact refused due to your heavy drinking,
Delete'Well, that is a really stupid thing to say, Simon!'
ReplyDeleteHarsh words indeed! Somebody's a little snappish today, or maybe it's just the effect I have upon people sometimes. Now I don't want to rule out the possibility that I have been saying really stupid things, but let us see whether or not there might be another explanation.
One of the things which struck me when watching the witnesses give evidence was that one could not really imagine any of them being bossed about or bullied by local authority officers. Graham Stuart has heard these stories and perhaps some of the other MPs have also; the tales of helpless home educating parents being misled by local authorities overstepping their remits. The difficulty is, as I said above, one simply could not imagine people like Julie or Sheena being given the runaround by LAs. This is the first point, that there was something a little unreal about seeing these confident women and being told that some local authorities overawe such people and misrepresent their powers to them. It didn't really ring true.
I think that it would have been better to have a mix of ordinary home educating parents and representatives of organisations. One or two people who could speak first hand about the problems they had experienced when a local authority exceeded their powers.
I genuinely don't think that the eight people selected as witnesses gave a realistic cross-section of home educators in this country today. They are not all teachers and business men and women! Many are not able to provide an education to their children, some are able to do so, but only with support; there is a far wider range than the eight actually chosen suggested. I might be wrong, but I had a feeling that some of the MPs felt this as well.
'It didn't really ring true.'
ReplyDeleteIt rang true to me. In any case, I would imagine that many of those MPs would have seen constituency members who had been lied to and bullied by their LAs. Ours certainly has, I know.
'I genuinely don't think that the eight people selected as witnesses gave a realistic cross-section of home educators in this country today.'
I don't think you are understanding why they were selected, Simon. They weren't picked as 'a realistic cross section'. They were, presumably, picked because a) they submitted a response to the Consultation and b)they know personally, through their voluntary or other responsibilities, a great number of home educators between them and so, can offer a deeper understanding than most of what it is like to home educate. I would imagine that this is why you weren't picked this time, Simon, because you don't know very many people who home educate.
Julie snapped at you(perhaps she has had a hard week, she's the mum of children with disabilities, remember) because you said that none of them were currently home educators. That wasn't in fact accurate. Several of them are.
It was clear to me that the MPs knew they were talking to experienced home educators who were in touch with very many other home educators and were able to explain many of the issues they have with LAs.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"One of the things which struck me when watching the witnesses give evidence was that one could not really imagine any of them being bossed about or bullied by local authority officers."
Which is also why they were capable of giving evidence before a government committee.
Simon wrote,
"This is the first point, that there was something a little unreal about seeing these confident women and being told that some local authorities overawe such people and misrepresent their powers to them. It didn't really ring true."
Aren't less confident people often represented by more confident people in discussions with authorities? Wasn't that part of your remit when you helping families whilst working for a charity? I think it's perfectly normal and very common - the MPs would not be surprised at all.
I'd like to thank all of the panel members for taking the time and trouble to attend this meeting and also for all the time and effort they put into helping fellow home educators locally. Without home educators like these, the home education community would be impoverished.
' because you said that none of them were currently home educators. That wasn't in fact accurate. Several of them are.'
ReplyDeleteNot really true. I said, 'It surely cannot have escaped notice that most of those called as witnesses no longer have children who are being educated at home?' Shena's children are eighteen and twenty, Fiona's is nineteen and so on. I simply thought that it would have been interesting to have one or two parents who are currently facing the next ten years or so as home educators, rather than looking back on ten years.
you have to look back to understand the future the past shapes the present.Crap service by LA shapes peoples views.
DeleteCan you confirm that you do not believe home educators are customers of an LA?
Anon - not sure what you mean - are we customers?
DeleteNot sure what the best analogy is - LA offers a service - which we may or may not want - but I suppose all tax payers are the ones paying for it!
we are customers of any services being offered by an LA and should be treat with the respect a customer deserves? it is the tax payer that funds an LA something i think most LA forget! so are teachers funded by the tax payer.
DeleteWebb does not see home educators as customers just people to be ordered around by an LA Officer.and webb supports spending vast sums of tax payers money on monitoring home educators with home visits interviewing child on its own with out the parents in the room.
Simon- Hannah's children were all tiny ( four under 8 I think) and one of Anne's is definitely primary age
ReplyDeleteMine are almost 10 and 12, so I've got another seven years to look forward to at a minimum. Sorry it's not ten, Simon, but I wouldn't have had time for indulgences like this site, let alone select committees back in the early days.
DeleteSounds like they made a good, varied selection, at least from the point of view of the children's ages. It makes sense to bias the selection towards those with older children who have already faced access problems since they are more likely to understand issues in depth and will have more experience. It was especially useful to include people like you, Julie, who have helped so many fellow home educators negotiate the system over recent years.
DeleteAs I've said elsewhere, I'd like to thank the panel members for taking the time to give evidence and also for the marvellous help you've given to so many home educators. Whilst I've not benefited directly from the panel's work, we have taken part in and contributed to several groups over the years and it's people like you that make all the difference. Thanks!
Did anyone remember to mention the number of home educated kids using cannabis?
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