Friday, 28 September 2012
The real reasons for the opposition to the Welsh proposals for the registration and monitoring of home education
The Welsh Assembly hope to introduce a scheme to register and monitor home educators and their children, to ensure that an education is actually being delivered. Most ordinary people see nothing wrong with this, but a small number of militant home educators are fighting the proposals ferociously. Many of these are the same people who fought against the attempt to change the law in England in 2009 and 2010. There are not many of them, perhaps a couple of hundred at most, but they are very vociferous.
One of the things that I would like to know about these people is whether or not they really believe what they say. Let me explain. Although there are some home educating parents who are grateful for the help of their local authority, I am guessing that the vast majority just want to be left alone. This is the case with the whole spectrum of home educators; ranging from radical unschoolers at one end to the fanatically structured at the other. It is obvious why this should be the case. If you practice autonomous education, then the very act of examining and asking probing questions about the education could have the effect of altering its style or direction. If on the other hand, like me, you are an extremely structured educator, then you are just as likely to be unwelcoming to inspection. This is because those investigating the education that you are providing will not understand what you are up to and the hour or so spent in a visit will just disrupt the smooth running of the day’s work. This is why I did not register with either of the local authorities where we lived while I was educating my child; there would have been no point.
So far, so good. Up to this point I am in complete accord with all the other parents who do not wish to be registered or monitored. Where I perhaps differ is that I have not the least doubt that a regimen of national monitoring of this sort would have an effect, a generally beneficial effect, upon home education. To understand why I think this, it is necessary to look at the supposed beliefs of those home educators who are opposed to the proposals currently under consideration in Wales.
Militant home educators are a tricksy bunch. They will say anything at all in support of their cause if they think that it will play well with those who know nothing about home education. For example, during the Badman business, the focus was upon ‘rights’. There was much talk of the ‘rights’ of parents and, to a lesser extent, those of the children themselves. You will not hear much about this during the present campaign, because it has rightly been gauged that popular opinion is in favour of monitoring and talk of ‘rights’ will not sway most parents whose children are at school. Instead, the emphasis is on the cost of registration and monitoring and the pointlessness of it.
The thing that I am unable to figure out is whether or not the home educators opposed to the idea of monitoring really believe that it would have no effect or only a bad effect upon home education? I somehow doubt that do. At the moment, one withdraws a child from school or fails to send her and there is an end to the matter. Parents can avoid meeting with or speaking to local authority officers and fob them off for years at a time with copied ‘philosophies’ or threats of legal action. Some of the children of such parents are probably being educated; others are probably not. Does anybody really doubt that if they knew that they would be expected to give some account of the education that their children were receiving, then many of those parents would put their shoulders to the wheel and provide some structured teaching and get their children to read, write, study history and do sums? I would say that this is a racing certainty. Of course, most autonomous educators do believe this; but unlike me, they think that it would be a bad thing if this were to happen.
Diverting the debate to various states in America or other countries, such as New Zealand is very neatly done, but does not alter the fact that compulsory registration and monitoring would have a great effect on home education either in England or in Wales. One of those effects would be that more parents would be undertaking structured work with their children; that is to say actually teaching them. I think that this would be a good thing and so, I suspect, would almost all non-home educators. The militant home educators who are opposing any such move tend to be autonomous educators who think that for parents to feel obliged to teach their children regularly would be a bad thing. Because this sounds pretty mad to most people whose children attend school, they find it necessary to dissemble and claim instead that they are worried about the waste of money that such a scheme would entail. This is not an honest way to carry on. I think that it would be interesting to hear what those who do not approve of the idea of registration and monitoring think the actual results would be. Do they, like me, think that the natural consequence would be more parents teaching their children in a structured way? If so, is this at the heart of their opposition?
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" Instead, the emphasis is on the cost of registration and monitoring and the pointlessness of it."
ReplyDeleteAre other people arguing on these points? It's a genuine question because I'm not a member of any group that's actually discussing the Welsh situation, I've not taken any action and the only place I've written my views is here, on your blog, so I've no idea what other people are saying. I'm the only commenter on your blog that seems to hold these views (I write lots, maybe you think it's more than one person?). And yes, I really, really, really do believe that the planned changes will do more harm than good.
Although I've argued about cost, it's not the money itself that I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about the harm that targeting the available money in the wrong places will do. I've read lots of case reviews and invariably the authorities already have concerns about families when children are harmed. Discovering families with problems, either educational or abuse and neglect, is not the issue. Plenty of SAOs are issued in this country and the same number of problems were discovered in New Zealand both with and without routine monitoring. Community monitoring works - people report families to Local Authorities if they have concerns about their education provision. Eileen Munro has also argued against this type of blanket approach. She made the argument that increasing the size of the haystack will only result in more children at risk of harm being missed.
You seem to think that Local Authorities have no powers to check that a suitable education is being provided. They can make informal enquires, and if they still have doubts they can start an SAO, the first part of which legally requires the parents to satisfy the LA that they are providing a suitable education - a much stricter requirement than informal enquiries and easy to invoke. You seem to think that only monitoring visits are good enough, despite evidence from New Zealand that it makes no difference and despite the evidence of the 2009 Freedom of Information requests that shows that many SAO are issued and many children are returned to school as a result of either the threat of an SAO or the issue of an SAO.
I'm not concerned about autonomous education. It's alive and well in New Zealand, and in states with high regulation. And on a personal note, it's long past being an issue for us as my children are at college, university and work. I guess some people are concerned about being forced to change their approach to education. It's only natural since they believe that their method is the most suited to their individual children (in my experience). It would be the equivalent of you being forced to follow an autonomous approach and only being allowed to teach your child when she asked for teaching. But the authorities claim that autonomous education is not at risk and will be part of the new system. And schools like Summerhill are currently allowed to give children the choice of what and when to learn (unless Wales is planning to change this too).
So... does this mean that you think that compulsory registration and monitoring would have any effect upon home education in this country; for good or ill? Do you think that more parents would provide structured teaching and do you think that a regimen of this sort would discourage some from embarking upon the enterprise in the first place?
ReplyDelete'You seem to think that Local Authorities have no powers to check that a suitable education is being provided.'
I am guessing here that we are both aware of the real situation, which is that most LAs will allow themelves to be deflected from their enquiries by determined efforts. We probably both know too that the issuing and prosecution of home educating parents for disregarding School Attendance Orders is as rare as rocking-horse shit.
"We probably both know too that the issuing and prosecution of home educating parents for disregarding School Attendance Orders is as rare as rocking-horse shit."
DeleteHow crude! There were 77 current SAOs in 2009, does that really count as rare? Prosecutions are rare because parents send their children to school or their education provision improves, so of course they are not prosecuted! Read the summary of the 2009 FOI requests. There are many descriptions by LA staff of children being returned to school and a few that mention that provision has improved.
But if you think they are failing to use the current system correctly, why do you want them to have more powers?
What I genuinely do not understand, Simon, is why, if LA's are as concerned about these children as they claim to be, they are not using the powers they have or working to establish good relationships with parents to encourage two way communication.
ReplyDeleteMy own experience was that the quality and tone of contact changed totally when a staff member changed. We went from really enjoyable and useful annual meetings to everything being in writing and no meetings at all, annual reports and annual complaints from us because the new staff member came to it with a totally different and very hostile attitude and was inventing the law and policy as she went along.
I agree that home educators have legal responsibilities and, quite possibly, hidden agendas but so do LA's and there is far more documentary evidence of them exceeding their powers and so failing in their duties than there seems to be of them acting against home educators who they claim are failing in their duties.
My view is that BOTH sides are going to have to find a better way of doing things and this starts with LA's cleaning up their act. I said this at the Select Committee, and I am happy to stand by it now. If that makes me militant in your book then fair enough. I am combative, because I am protecting my family. I didn't start it, though, and I don't know any home educators who did fire the first shot.
'What I genuinely do not understand, Simon, is why, if LA's are as concerned about these children as they claim to be, they are not using the powers they have '
ReplyDeleteBecause it is expensive and magistrates often don't understand the law in this area. Most of them are volunteers, more used to dealing with shoplifting and drunken driving.
'My view is that BOTH sides are going to have to find a better way of doing things and this starts with LA's cleaning up their act. I said this at the Select Committee, and I am happy to stand by it now. '
As I see it, there are three possibilities. The new regulations will have no effect upon the quality of education being received by home educated children, they will make it worse or they will improve it. The question to address is not who started what or who is being difficult, but whether or not a new law would make it more or less likely that home educated children would be getting a good education. Nobody seems eager yet to answer this.
Simon said,
Delete"The question to address is not who started what or who is being difficult, but whether or not a new law would make it more or less likely that home educated children would be getting a good education. Nobody seems eager yet to answer this."
I'll agree with this. You have constantly ignored requests for evidence to support your theory that the proposed changes will improve the quality of education provided to home educated children (we've seen evidence to the contrary). We're still waiting...
Simon says - "The question to address is not who started what or who is being difficult, but whether or not a new law would make it more or less likely that home educated children would be getting a good education."
ReplyDeleteI would say that there are two questions that have to be answered before this one can be posed.
1) Can LA's be trusted with extra powers when there is so much evidence that they have abused the ones they already have?
2) What will the effect be on families who live in an area where a LA does not comply with the law and where an individual official can cause that family fear and distress and bully them into either changing the way they educate or sending them back to a school where there is no evidence that the child would do any better than they are at home?
I am amazed that you think that LA's who routinely push all SEN cases to tribunal on principle would be deterred by the thought of cost. I would suggest that it is more a case that they are deterred by publicity, because a case at a magistrates court is more likely to be reported than one at an SEN tribunal.
Finally, a 'good education' is a very subjective, emotive phrase. The law, which applies to all children states that parents are required to provide an education 'appropriate to age, aptitude, ability and SEN.' That means the definition of your word 'good' will be different for every child.
I seem to have said this a lot recently, but my view is that once the state provides a 'good' education for all children then they are qualified to judge me by that standard. Until then, it is a massive waste of resources to monitor a tiny group against whom there is no firm evidence when there are so many bigger problems within the school system.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"Do you think that more parents would provide structured teaching and do you think that a regimen of this sort would discourage some from embarking upon the enterprise in the first place?"
It may do both of these things (though we have no evidence to support this theory), but I'm far from convinced that either outcome is in the best interests of individual children, quite the reverse in fact. The education should be tailored to the child. Isn't that one of the main advantages of HE?
Simon wrote,
"We probably both know too that the issuing and prosecution of home educating parents for disregarding School Attendance Orders is as rare as rocking-horse shit."
You have no way of knowing this. For one thing, magistrate court cases are rarely reported, it's only when cases are taken to a higher court the we can locate transcripts in law libraries. Transcripts are not produced in magistrates court cases and certified extracts are only usually available to the parties involved in the case. No public record is available for Magistrate Court proceedings. Occasionally cases are reported in the press, but only a few reach the papers.
For another, if you bother to read the freedom of information information from 2009, there is often no need to prosecute after an SAO is issued because the children are in school, or education provision has improved.
As far as I am able to apprehend, those commenting so far do not appear to attach much importance to the question of whether the proposed new legislation would damage or improve the education of home educated children. This question is of course entirely separate from whether or not families are caused fear and distress or what use is currently made by local authorities of existing legislation.
ReplyDeleteJane says that such a new law might encourage more parents to provide structured teaching for their children, but feels that this would not be in the best interest of the children. I suspect that most people, both parents and professionals, would disagree with this. Anne thinks that we should not even consider the matter until everything is sorted out in maintained schools.
Talk of the money that might be wasted, or waiting until all schools operate well and every local authority is perfect, simply provides us with a stream of red herrings. Taxpayers money will always be wasted and there will always be poor schools and inefficient local authorities. Suggesting that nothing should change about home education until all these matters have been dealt with is the same as saying that nothing should ever be done about home education.
I mentioned here a week or two ago that the objections to the new Welsh measures would focus upon cost and the need to direct efforts elsewhere and I am pleased to see that these are precisely the lines being taken by almost all who oposed the new plans. As I say, these are red herrings and the real reason why home educators don't like the idea is that many just want to be left alone. I can understand this perfectly, I felt the same way myself, but that does not mean that nothing should ever change about home education in this country.
How do you define a red herring, Simon? Is it your personal way of describing a point that you do not agree with?
ReplyDeleteI believe that there are far more important things to do with the limited money this country has to spend on education and safeguarding children at risk than pick on a small group against whom nothing has been proved. I also believe in the legal principle of 'innocent until proved guilty' rather than the Napoleonic code which you seem to prefer where innocence must be proven.
Finally, I believe that laws should impact on all equally. To me, that means that all educators should have to meet the same standards whether they are sub-contractors or those who have taken direct responsibility for their own children's education. That would mean every school proving every year that every child was getting your mythical good education and being shut down if it failed to. If it was proposed to change the law to ensure that, then I would be right behind it.
One final point. You mention that you 'felt' the same way yourself, and could educate your daughter as you chose. Those of us who are still educating our children are bound to feel differently about change from those for whom it is now safely academic.
I'm against the proposals as they stand simply because I can't see how they would improve the education of home educated children. I suspect the main effect would be to bring home educators and LAs into conflict with each other.
ReplyDeleteMy personal view is that the quality of the education of HE'd children would be raised by an improvement in relationships, such as in the eg of Hampshire.
Hampshire employ LA officers who tell lies old mum and these officers want to wipe out home education until they is a proper complaints system over these officers nothing will change as they know that you can not touch them when did you hear of an LA officer being sacked? i never have.
DeleteHampshire is one of the worst LA in UK it also says one thing to you to your face and anther in private via emails and sly phone calls to other officers in that council
It may have been like that, Peter. However, thanks to very hardworking HE parents it has changed/is changing. Many newer parents will not have to experience what you did, because of their work.
Deleteit is still like that with Hampshire leopards dont change they spots they not change if so where the proof in writing? i bet if you went though they sly emails to each other you see the truth about what they think of home education! i did i got hold of the records all of it and they tell lies as if it was normal! our councilor was rather amazed to see how often they would lie or tell half truth to him! and the reason is cos they know they cant be sacked as i said when have you heard of an LA officer being fired? i not!
Deletewhen i caught 2 LA officer of HCC out lieing they would not come to the phone to account for they lies! the whole dam department should be sacked.Hampshire LA could not organizer a bun fight in a bakery.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"Jane says that such a new law might encourage more parents to provide structured teaching for their children, but feels that this would not be in the best interest of the children."
You do like to oversimplify arguments and categorise people, don't you Simon. I said that it may encourage structure, but I have my doubts since there is no evidence to support this theory; anywhere. However, my main concern is that this move will harm children, both because of the failure to target spending appropriately and because of the additional stress placed on families and the change in relationship between Local Authorities and home educators.
"Taxpayers money will always be wasted and there will always be poor schools and inefficient local authorities."
Possibly, but only an idiot would suggest that we should ignore waste and spend, spend, spend. They will have to rob Peter to pay Paul. Someone, somewhere will lose as a direct result of money being spent on a registration and monitoring scheme, either another department or the taxpayer. Ignoring this doesn't make it go away. If they have spare money it should be spent where it will help best, and the vague possibility of slightly improving the education of a few children doesn't seem the best use to me when children are dying and suffering abuse depite being known to be at risk by Social Services.
"Suggesting that nothing should change about home education until all these matters have been dealt with is the same as saying that nothing should ever be done about home education."
Something should be done if there is a problem. Prove there is a problem and I might even agree with you, but you haven't proved this, and nor have the authorities. All the evidence we have suggests that there is no problem (community monitoring works, plenty of SAOs issued, etc) and the the 'solution' changes nothing (New Zealand and US).
"I mentioned here a week or two ago that the objections to the new Welsh measures would focus upon cost and the need to direct efforts elsewhere and I am pleased to see that these are precisely the lines being taken by almost all who oposed the new plans."
Just stating that a group of people are objecting to the Welsh proposals in a particular way does not negate their arguments (if this assessment is accurate). You need to use logic and evidence to dispute arguments you disagree with and they seem in sort supply. You seem to be saying, a group of people are using this argument, so it must be wrong - why, because they agree with each other, or because you don't like them, I'm not sure what your point is? Or are you just saying, these people are making this argument - a simple statement of fact without any judgement, a seemingly pointless point and a bit of a red herring. And you are clearly misunderstanding my arguments here if you think they just boil down to cost!
People do not want tax payers money wasted on home educators there quite rightly want any spare money spent on the local state school you ask people extra tax payers money on home educators or schools? you know the answer Webb! people know also that once a council sets up a new department it eat up tax payers money the UK is broke in real debt thanks to the Labour party which your daughter fully supports!
ReplyDeletealso LA officers do not have the trust of the people they wish to work with.LA officers have proven that there can not tell the truth and that telling lies is part of they job would you want a know liar to enter your house?
none of this will effect us Peter at college and good new Webb Peter passed a test and the college is letting him do AS/A level Physics he also going on to their gifted program to for able children i taught him physics from books not bad for some one who you claim is mad!
'Something should be done if there is a problem. Prove there is a problem and I might even agree with you, but you haven't proved this, and nor have the authorities. All the evidence we have suggests that there is no problem'
ReplyDeleteAlone of every human enterprise in the world, home education in this country is perfect and has no problems whatsover associated with it! This Panglossian approach to the situation is slightly breathtaking. I have never yet encountered any educational method or system which had no flaws. All along, it seems, I was unwittingly involved in such a scheme myself.
"Alone of every human enterprise in the world, home education in this country is perfect and has no problems whatsover associated with it!"
DeleteA previous reply to this has disappeared but the gist of it was that I have never claimed this. Many SAO are threatened and issued and children are returned to school or education provision is improved as a result. Clearly there are problem families but the current system works. This was the experience in New Zealand too. They same number of problem families were discovered both with and without routine annual monitoring visits because problems families were reported to them by members of the community. Why choose the expensive system when the results are the same?
Community monitoring works for education just as well as it does for child neglect and abuse in this country. Just read the serious case reviews published online if you doubt this. The families are invariably already known to Social Services, it's the follow-up that fails children.
'I also believe in the legal principle of 'innocent until proved guilty' rather than the Napoleonic code which you seem to prefer where innocence must be proven.'
ReplyDeleteAny talk of innocence or guilt in this context is confusing and another way of muddying the waters. Guilty of what, for Heaven's sake?
'How do you define a red herring, Simon? Is it your personal way of describing a point that you do not agree with?'
ReplyDeleteNot a bit of it! In this context, I regard as red herrings all those objections which shed no light upon the central question of whether registration or monitoring would improve or harm the education being provided to home educated children. I cannot quite agree with Jane, who apparently thinks that there is no scope at all for improvement in the current arrangements. So for the purpose of this particular debate, the fact that some local authorities behave badly is a red herring. So is the fact that some schools could be better. The cost of the projected scheme is also a red herring. Before we discuss any of those things, we should be looking at matters such as; would this tend towards an overall improvement in the standard of education being provided to the majority of home educated children? We should also be asking ourselves if it is likely to cause harm to their education. Subsidiary, but related, questions might be, would regular monitoring be likely to cause more parents to provide regular, structured teaching to their children and would this be a good or bad thing?
The cost of any measures of this sort is a particularly large and smelly red herring, because of course the objections to the idea of monitoring are not founded upon this at all. Even if it were to be demonstrated clearly that monitoring would result in more and better teaching for home educated children, there would still be vigorous opposition in some quarters because it infringed the rights of parents.
Simon wrote,
Delete"I cannot quite agree with Jane, who apparently thinks that there is no scope at all for improvement in the current arrangements."
I've not said that either. I've said that the evidence suggests that the Welsh proposals would not cause an improvement in the education of home educated children. And cost is not a red herring. I would willingly accept a poorer education for some children if the alternative was saving other children from neglect or abuse. The NHS must make similar hard choices about how to spend its money. You may choose to ignore the cost and label it a red herring, but difficult budget choices have to be made all the time, just look at the situation in Spain and Greece.
I agree with Old Mum. The best way to improve home education provision is to improve relationships between Local Authorities and home educators. Julie's work with her Local Authority is evidence that this works and there are plenty of other examples across the country.
"Even if it were to be demonstrated clearly that monitoring would result in more and better teaching for home educated children, there would still be vigorous opposition in some quarters because it infringed the rights of parents."
DeleteI can's speak for others but greater Local Authority involvement in the way you would prefer would have reduced my children's rights to control their own education.
Julie not improved how Hampshire view home education they is no evidence to show this?the letters are the same and the staff still carry on in the same old way with emails they send to each other about parents who home educate. The LA officer tell lies on a regular base The only way to improve things is to sack the lot of them and start again!I never come across such a bunch of unless individuals they could not organizer a bun fight in bakery!
DeleteIs no good Julie seeing everything Hampshire LA does though rose tinted glasses.
Parents all over the country are meeting with their LAs, sometimes because the LA has asked them to, sometimes at their own initiative. They work to improve procedures, letters etc, which in turn leads to less frosty relationships. Polite discussions can lead to change. However, it takes a bit of courage.
DeleteSome HE'ers like to snipe from the sidelines instead of rolling up their sleeves and changing things. There are also some who don't like change at all, preferring the antagonistic relationships of the past.
you cant change Hampshire LA old mum its hopeless!Hampshire LA does not understand polite discussions as its officers tell lies as part of they job.
DeleteI doubt many parents meet with they LA as it is a complete waste of time why would you wanna meet with liars?
if Hampshire LEA letters have changed lets see one that they always send out to home educators?
Don't be like Julie old mum and see everything though rose tinted glasses!
I don't see things through rose-tinted glasses, Peter. I'm old and cynical. I see things though rather grey glasses, sadly. But I'm not blind.
DeleteI say I know that many parents are meeting with their LAs on a regular basis, because this is a fact. You say you doubt it. OK. Whatever.
Some people don't like change, even improvement. They find it disturbing.
i am no spring chicken! you are blind to the lies that LA,s tell and the damage this does to children family.Why do you not want a proper complaint system for home educators so that our complaints are looked into in a real way and not just sweep under the carpet which is what HCC do!
Deletethat is the change we want! not silly meeting with tin pot LA officers who have nothing to ofter but lies and half truths we never get improvement all the time they the LA can just get away with it. open you eyes old mum and see what is really going on!
What do I consider that I could be found guilty of?
ReplyDelete- not educating in a way that a council clerk with no educational or SEN training considers suitable.
- succeeding where a school has failed.
- defining that success in a way that applies to an individual child, not some ficitional average one. Actually, defining success in 2 different ways, one per child, and changing that definition as they mature and their strengths and weaknesses become more apparent and their dreams for their future firm up into career paths.
- questioning the establishment (and, worse still, being right.)
Before you dismiss this as over-reaction, remember that you home educated in a place where council officials act in accordance with the law and had contacts and a background that made you acceptable. Not everyone has this or a child as academically able as your daughter. (Incidentally, how is she getting on at Uni? Well, I hope.)
'Before you dismiss this as over-reaction, remember that you home educated in a place where council officials act in accordance with the law'
ReplyDeleteYou clearly never heard of Mike Allpress, one of the EHE inspectors from Essex! I honestly don't see why questioning the establishment or succeeding where a school failed should make one feel guilty or be seen as guilty by others. One of the reasons that I flexischooled my older daughter was that the school was failing. Mind you, this was in Harringey, where nearly all the schools are failing for much of the time. I never felt guilty about this, nor thought that anybody else thought I was guilty of anything.
"You clearly never heard of Mike Allpress, one of the EHE inspectors from Essex!"
DeleteBut did he give you any trouble, or did your history as a primary school teacher, your frequent experience of working with Local Authorities and your wife's job as a Social Worker grant you immunity? You have said before that the LA were no trouble and you could not see why anyone would object to visits, so presumably he was OK with you (if he visited you). What is/was he known for, I've never heard of him?
I didn't say I was guilty or felt guilty. I said I was viewed as guilty. As for Essex, if you knew there was an EHE inspector breaking the law then I'm sure you pursued him as diligently as you pursue those you don't agree with who home educate.
ReplyDeleteI now have dumplings to make to go with the beef stew so I'll leave you to your views.
that is yummy dumpling and beef strew me and Peter will be round for some!LOL
Delete' as diligently as you pursue those you don't agree with who home educate.'
ReplyDeleteIn fairness to myself Anne, I must point out that I have not pursued either you or anybody else; you have chosen freely to come onto my blog. Pursuit conjures up an image of my chasing you down the road, raving about registration and monitoring. This is a personal blog and I am happy for anybody who wishes to comment, to do so. Expressing an opinion on an insignificant little blog of this sort can hardly by any stretch of the imagination be described as pursuing anybody.
'I now have dumplings to make to go with the beef stew so I'll leave you to your views. '
I don't know Anne well enough to know if this is a deliberate reference to my own mention of Dr Pangloss in an earlier comment. If so, then it is masterly; bringing to mind Candide's response to the good doctor, when he told him, 'Now we must tend our garden'. I hope that it was intentional!
Somebody asked about Mike Allpress. here is a piece in which he gives his views, which suggest that only 5% of home educated children are doing well! His request to visit the Webb household was not crowned with success! Peter Humphries, who is now connected with Alison Sauer, is also to be found here:
ReplyDeletehttp://cant-see-your-face.piczo.com/?g=19086297&cr=2
Ann B asked:
ReplyDelete'What I genuinely do not understand, Simon, is why, if LA's are as concerned about these children as they claim to be, they are not using the powers they have '
Simon Webb replied:
'Because it is expensive and magistrates often don't understand the law in this area. Most of them are volunteers, more used to dealing with shoplifting and drunken driving.'
Simon says cost is an issue; so, if it's expensive to deal properly with a very small number of known problem cases, why is it better to introduce a system that wastes much more time and money for the authorities and ALL HE parents?
In any case, the argument about magistrates is a red herring; LAs frequently fail to use their existing powers long before they need to go to court. For example, in cases where a child is strongly suspected of being at risk, they should try sticking to their own agreed plans to visit; instead they leave the child to die because they couldn't be bothered, and later claim that Home Education was an obstacle to any action.
Anne B's question still stands, deflected but not answered.
'In any case, the argument about magistrates is a red herring; LAs frequently fail to use their existing powers long before they need to go to court. For example, in cases where a child is strongly suspected of being at risk, they should try sticking to their own agreed plans to visit; instead they leave the child to die '
ReplyDeleteMy comments were about the issuing of School Attendance Orders; the person making this comment seems to be talking about child protection. These are two very different things, unless perhaps she thinks that children have died form the lack of a suitable edcuation! Unfotunately, this is all too typical of the kind of confused and wooly thinking to which some home educators are prone.
'Anne B's question still stands, deflected but not answered.'
I think it is more that I gave an abbreviated answer in a hurry, rather than that I deflected the question. I really need to devote an entire post to this question in order to do it justice. For one thing, the extent to which local authorities have a duty to track down and assess home education is debatable. If they are persuaded that they have no duty in this area, then they will have no incentive to race around issuing SAOs. The idea that this involves only a very small number of cases is a myth, propagated by the LAs themelves. When asked outright how many home educating families cause them concern, they tend naturally to claim that the numbers are tiny. Otherwise, the obvious next question would be, 'Why are you doing nothing about these people?' Prosecuting a case through the courts entails expense and magistrates often bend over backwards not to be seen as being harsh towards parents. Finally, of course, if LAs do not have the power to request a detailed account of the education which a child is receiving, how on earth are they able to judge whether or not it is deficient? Most have betater things to do and frequently accept a so-clled 'Educational Philosophy' rather than make more vigorous enquiries. If the law changed and the local authority had a definite duty to investigate, I think that you would see both more structured teaching on the part of parents, together with a rise in the number of SAOs.
Simon> 'My comments were about the issuing of School Attendance Orders; the person making this comment seems to be talking about child protection. These are two very different things.'
ReplyDeleteThe general point stands; if LAs don't bother to intervene with existing powers when a child is in danger, then there is little hope of them doing anything about anyone providing 'unsuitable' education. Giving a rifle to a small child doesn't turn it into a crack marksman; it simply makes it very dangerous; the same is true of giving more power to LAs.
Simon> 'Unfotunately, this is all too typical of the kind of confused and wooly thinking to which some home educators are prone.'
Simon's rattled!
Simon> 'I think it is more that I gave an abbreviated answer in a hurry, rather than that I deflected the question.'
Simon's response to Anne B was quite enlightening. It highlighted cost as an issue and, if his view is any indicator of the views of LAs, that LAs either have little understanding of the powers available or prefer not to see them used. I suspect that all of these are factors play some part in LA behaviour and any desire for bigger sticks.
The rest of Simon's response to me is even more interesting, and leads us to the issue of why LAs prefer not to use existing powers; he validates my view that those authorities demanding new laws are simply looking for more draconian powers to compensate for their own shortcomings.
Simon> 'Finally, of course, if LAs do not have the power to request a detailed account of the education which a child is receiving, how on earth are they able to judge whether or not it is deficient?'
I fail to see how these detailed accounts will do anything useful; as one who does provide a detailed account, I find that the (probably brighter than average) LA recipient glazes-over, and demonstrates little in the way of detailed attention or comprehension. My fear is that the LAs, with their known incompetence and inconsistency, given new powers of "vigorous" inquiry, will take us into unnecessary rat-holes; I've no doubt that these can be managed (albeit with a lot of time wasted), but less confident home-educators, who are, nevertheless, doing a better job than schools, may be harmed, along with their children.
' but less confident home-educators, who are, nevertheless, doing a better job than schools, may be harmed, along with their children.'
ReplyDeleteTo make this into a sensible statement, it is necessary to insert a few 'check' words;
some less confident home-educators who may be doing a better job than some schools, may be harmed.
Without knowing whether they are actually doing a better job than schools or knowing what sort of harm we are talking about, makes it impossible to say anything worthwhile and meaningful on this subject. We could just as easily and with equal probability of being right, claim that:
some home-educators, who may be doing a worse job than some schools, may benefit.
Can anybody tell us which of the two statements is most likely to be true and why? Perhaps they are both true and some will benefit, while others will be harmed? If so, will the beneficiaries outnumber those who are harmed? What grounds do we have for supposing that this might be the case?
Watching Simon wriggle when he's cornered is a little like watching a blindfolded man using a sledgehammer to dissect a live frog.
ReplyDeleteDon't bother, Simon; go away and make-up that post you promised to answer Anne B.
Simon said -
ReplyDelete'I now have dumplings to make to go with the beef stew so I'll leave you to your views. '
I don't know Anne well enough to know if this is a deliberate reference to my own mention of Dr Pangloss in an earlier comment. If so, then it is masterly; bringing to mind Candide's response to the good doctor, when he told him, 'Now we must tend our garden'. I hope that it was intentional!
It was intentional. Sorry, it was also naughty of me because I enjoy your arguments even when I don't agree with them.
'It was intentional. Sorry'
ReplyDeleteDon't apologise, Anne! It is nice to have dealings with somebody who can actually follow a train of thought coherently and not descend into personal invective at the drop of a hat. I think the person who compared me to a blindfolded man dissecting a frog with a sledgehammer knows who I am talking about here.
But you are wriggling Simon; you don't have a coherent argument.
DeleteI think it's pretty rich of you to complain about personal invective, given that your profile includes a standing insult to anyone who disagrees with your views on home education, and you use personal invective routinely, as you have done in this comment.
You really have to learn to distinguish between personal invective and inferences that can be made on the basis of what you say. I can safely say, without fear of accusation of any ad hominem fallacy, that you are a peevish overweening hypocrite. I can infer that and justify it from what you write; it's not a personal attack that I use to try to discredit your arguments. If you complain, about rudeness, or try to make a condescending attack attack then it is you who is being abusive.
' you are a peevish overweening hypocrite.'
ReplyDeleteThis may well be so, but has no bearing at all upon the arguments which I put forward.
True. It's a pity that you fail to remember this when you rely on insulting people or groups you disagree in an attempt to write off what they say as unimportant instead of engaging with their arguments. An argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons or evidence for accepting a particular conclusion. Constantly re-stating your views without reasons or evidence does not an argument make.
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