Sunday 10 October 2010

The mental health of home educating parents

Local authority officers visiting home educating families realise full well that an hour or so is not long enough to establish the quality of the education being provided for a child. Traditionally, they really limit themselves to checking three things. Firstly, that the child is not being kept out of school in order to work, secondly that it does not look as though she is being abused in some way and finally that the parents do not seem to be completely mad. When I have talked about this before, several people have pulled me up and asked if I think that a parent with mental health problems should be forbidden to home educate. This is a fair question. After all, we don't usually assume that somebody is unfit to care for her children just because she are bipolar! Still, in the case of home education, things are a little more complicated.

I have been moved to reflect upon this by my observation over the last week or two of the increasingly fragile state of one fairly well known home educating parent. Just as green ink is always a warning sign when used in letters to newspaper editors, so too is a blog whose posts are made in 24 point typeface in alternating Red, green, yellow and magenta. I do have the impression that the home educating community contains rather more than its fair share of people with mental health problems. Mind you, it is a little hard to tell. Few home educators, including the present writer, are completely normal and it is sometimes difficult to know where eccentricity ends and madness begins. In other words, while it is true that many home educators are a bit, or indeed very, odd, it is not easy to gauge the percentage who are actually ill. Anyway, does it matter? There are plenty of parents with varying degrees of mental health problems whose children are at school. Why should home educating families be looked at differently?

I think that the possible consequences of a mentally ill parent educating a child at home are different from one who send the child to school in the usual way. I think that the child of such a parent could be in a sense at risk. I do not mean the sort of risk which we saw in the dreadful case in Edinburgh recently where the three children died in tragic circumstances. One can never guard against such tragedies. I am thinking more of the effect on a child of spending most of their waking hours with a person whose world view might be horribly distorted and irrational. Of course, I recognise straight away that most parents, mentally ill or not, manage to give their children some foolish and wrong headed views about the world, whether they go to school or are taught at home. My own daughter was raised on scripture and some might say that filling a small child's head with a lot of stuff about people being raised from the dead and so on is pretty weird! We also come to the question about the limits of what society may reasonably take an interest in. If I wish to teach my child that somebody was raised from the dead, then what right have I to say that another parent should not teach his child that the Jews are taking over the world or that aliens are eavesdropping on her thoughts via the television? This is not an either/or situation, but rather a spectrum.

There does seem to me though something a little worrying about the idea that somebody displaying the florid symptoms of a bipolar episode could be the only adult influence upon a young child. There has been some concern in the past among local authority officers that the home educated children of such parents are acting in effect as nurse companions. I suspect that these are likely to be isolated cases, but there is the more general fear that children might get caught up in the conspiracy laden atmosphere of certain elements of the home education movement. They might grow up believing that nothing ever happens by chance and that every unfortunate accident is part of a wider and deeply sinister conspiracy against their parents' chosen lifestyle. Link to the 2007 guidelines on home education missing from the DfE website? Oh no, the government are trying to suppress our rights! This sort of low level paranoia is pretty widespread among many home educators. If you throw in a number of dedicated activists with definite psychiatric problems, then you run the risk of creating a feverish backdrop of anxiety and imaginary attacks by government agents which must result in quite a few children being raised in homes which resemble the X Files! This can hardly bode well for the children's own mental health and future prospects of becoming normal, well balanced citizens.

As I say, I would be interested to know if anybody else has the feeling that the proportion of mentally ill parents is higher among home educators than the general population? If so, then this might not only have implications for the children, but also go a long way to explain the extraordinary atmosphere of persecution and government conspiracies which seems to pervade elective home education in this country.

130 comments:

  1. It would depend on how you define mental illness. You said yourself that the line between mental illness and eccentricity is blurred.

    It would depend on whether the child was at risk of harm. That's why 'risk of significant harm' is a criterion for LA involvement in family life. Plenty of parents and local authority employees who show no signs of mental instability manage to damage children.

    Also, I saw some figures about mental health recently about which a commentator observed that something like 40% of the population must be mentally ill at one time or another.

    As for the 'extraordinary atmosphere of persecution and government conspiracies', let me re-iterate. In advocating shared responsibility for children's education and welfare, and in considering recommendations that LAs be permitted to enter private homes and see children alone, the previous government was proposing a significant change to constitutional principles that have underpinned UK law for centuries. The objections were exactly the same ones that were raised in response to proposals for detention without trial or police stop and search powers. The objections were not the hysterical responses of paranoid individuals, but a legitimate response to impending changes to the UK constitution.

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  2. Do you really think a random, untrained (medically) person visiting for an hour or so a year is going to be able to accurately recognise mental illness? If you ask an LA inspector to visit with the task of spotting and reporting mental illness in mind you are likely to have hundreds of false positive referrals to SS whilst any real cases will probably be missed. If the signs are obvious enough to be spotted by this method it's highly likely that someone else will have spotted it already.

    The same applies to abuse and, as you say a visit would not be sufficient to establish quality of education the only outcome will be an increase in SS workload making it more likely that actual cases of harm in the wider community will be missed by SS (lack of funding and time - increasing the size of the haystack) as well as harming the innocent families caught up in the mess. Your idea is a recipe for disaster.

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  3. 'Your idea is a recipe for disaster.'

    This is not my idea. I was describing how things currently work and I do not think that it is a good system at all. You are quite right, it is a recipe for disaster. I think that some of the tragedies in the world of home edcuation have demonstrated this beyond any doubt.

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  4. It's not a description of the current system that I recognise. What do you suggest would be better?

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  5. Well, I think that Simon is probably right in that there do seem to be a greater number of HE parents with mental health problems than one might expect; I actually know quite a few who have contact with mental health services/are on long term medication/have even been in hospital for such issues in the past.

    I think the reasons they home educate are quite straightforward; they (the parents) often have problems dealing with " authority figures" - such as teachers. Their children start school, but when (an often trivial) issue comes up, the teachers inform the parents (probably in a routine sort of way) and the parents feel this as criticism. Things often get out of hand with the parents feeling continually got at and the teachers perplexed with how to deal with the situation. That may lead to escalation of the issue and many deregister under pressure. I have had long conversations with families who find themselves in that sitaution.

    However, does having a mental health issue make you a 'bad' home educator? Not at all- in fact many of them who fall into this category tend to be more school-like in their approach to HE thann many convicted "never been to school " types who may end up as the "dreaded autonomous" HEers (- in the eyes of some, obviously!). The real problem occurs if those who deregistered because of the school pressures then face hostile or unhelpful EWO's or inspectors- the parents then panic again, don't offer any evidence of HE and end up threatened all over again. That is where the paranoia sets in...

    What to do about it? (If anything needs 'doing'?)Well I could go on at length...but I am going to church instead......

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  6. "Well, I think that Simon is probably right in that there do seem to be a greater number of HE parents with mental health problems than one might expect;"

    More than 40%? Again, this is not something I recognise from about 5 different groups. Do these people not take part in groups either? If so, how do you know them?

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  7. @Julie - That's a dangerous approach to take, implying that anyone who has trouble with authority figures is more likely to be suffering from mental illness. I prefer to look at it that we just have a lower tolerance for Jobsworths and their ilk, do not need the crutch of state support and are prepared to take our business elsewhere if we don't get satisfaction. One of the most valuable lessons I learned at school is that teachers can be wrong too, and that if you know you're right and don't budge, eventually they you win. Winning an argument with my local council over the cost of bus tickets (I went and asked at the bus station and they gave me the correct leaflet which I forwarded to the council and they backed down) when I was a first-year student at university helped reinforce my tendency to stand up and fight whenever I think a part of government has got it wrong. Standing up and fighting for what you believe is right is not mental illness, even though some governments choose to interpret it as such.

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  8. 'More than 40%?'

    I'm slightly dubious about this figure. Is it really being claimed that 40% of shop assistants are mentally ill? Or 40% of teachers? Where does this statistic come from and what are the definitions being used for it? Is it restricted to psychoses like bipolar disorder or are we including minor neuroses such as OCD? More research needed.

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  9. 'That's a dangerous approach to take, implying that anyone who has trouble with authority figures is more likely to be suffering from mental illness.'

    I understood Julie to be saying the opposite to this; not that those having trouble with authority figures were likely to be mentally ill, but rather that those who are mentally ill might be more likely to have problems with authority figures.

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  10. "I'm slightly dubious about this figure. Is it really being claimed that 40% of shop assistants are mentally ill?"

    I don't think it's 40% at any point in time. Suzyg said she heard a figure of 40% at one time or another, which I understood to mean that 40% of the population would suffer some level of mental illness during their lifetime.

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  11. 'I don't think it's 40% at any point in time. Suzyg said she heard a figure of 40% at one time or another, which I understood to mean that 40% of the population would suffer some level of mental illness during their lifetime.
    '

    Yes, but where does this figure come from and what are the definitions being used for mental illness? It is interesting, but I would like a bit more detail.

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  12. If we don't even know the rates in the total population, how can we even begin to estimate rates in the HE population and compare them to the total population?

    Some people with mental illness may have trouble with authority and HE as a result. Others could just as easily avoid conflict with authority and send their child to school, the likely route must vary from illness to illness. Some may struggle without their child at home, others may struggle with having their child at home 24/7.

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  13. Simon, do you really think it is appropriate to mention an individual in this way? If someone is going through a tough time mentally/emotionally then the last thing they (or their family) need is people talking about them on a blog.

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  14. To answer the queries above; yes, I was saying the opposite of what Dave thinks I am saying - I was trying to say that in my experience, some of those who home educate have ended up on that path because school was stressful to the parents because of their mental health issues.

    And to anon above - I am talking about people I know, in real life; some of them end up in HE groups - often because they get into a mess with their LA (because of the issues I have already mentioned) and so seek support from an HE group to help them out....

    I would reiterate though that having a mental health problem doesn't mean that you can't home educate successfully.....

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  15. Simon I think this post is the lowest form of gutter journalism. You disgust me.

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  16. 'Simon, do you really think it is appropriate to mention an individual in this way?'

    You'll forgive my saying Allie, that I cannot agree with you about this. There are countless blogs on the Internet and I doubt if many people will even know to whom I refer. Those who do will hardly think any the less of the person because I have remarked upon the style of her blog. The person concerned has posted a good deal about her distress and since this is in the public space, I hardly think it inappropriate to take notice of it. I am not posting a list of home educators with mental health problems.

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  17. 'Simon I think this post is the lowest form of gutter journalism. You disgust me.'

    You evidently spend little time on the Internet if something as innocuous as this disgusts you. Might I suggest that if your sensibilities are so readily shocked, then you could perhaps consider taking up cross-stitch or water colour painting rather than surfing the net? You would run less risk of being exposed to unpleasantness.

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  18. Simon, I have to wonder, what actual real home education experience to you have, beyond your own daughter?

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  19. "More than 40%? Again, this is not something I recognise from about 5 different groups. Do these people not take part in groups either? If so, how do you know them? "

    This was from a news article I read (no idea where) about a comment on the mental health of some group or other. The author of the article observed that if whatever it was was the criterion for mental illness, then about 40% of the population would be 'mentally ill' at some time or another. As far as I am aware, neither, I, nor Simon, nor the author of the article made any claims about the prevalence of mental illness (however defined) amongst home educators.

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  20. 'Simon, I have to wonder, what actual real home education experience to you have, beyond your own daughter?'

    Involvement with one of the 'free schools' in the early nineteen seventies. Last twenty years or so working with families of children with special needs, helping them resolve their difficulties by in some cases de-registering from school. Many friends who are teachers and social workers, local authority officers and so on. Former member of both Education Otherwise and Home Education Advisory Service. Worked during the eighties for Alice Hoffmann Homes with young people with autism. A number of these had been removed form school for various reasons and at that time the local authorites were very strongly opposed to this.

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  21. Webb:

    Anyone that cynically writes a book purely for financial gain which it claims “identifies key areas of conflict between home educators and local authorities and suggests ways that these can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction” and then denies persecution of Home Educators is either demented or delusional.

    Mental health conditions I believe.

    Glass houses Webb.

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  22. Simon Webb clearly did not undertake evidence based research for his self-opinionated book. When a Judicial Review of Metropolitan Police Force policy finds against them for discrimination and persecution, will Simon Webb have the courage and strength of character to make a public apology for besmirching people as being ‘conspiracy theorists’?

    Georgette Herd

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  23. 'identifies key areas of conflict between home educators and local authorities and suggests ways that these can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction”

    One might I suppose say that anybody who interprets these words as persecution has a rather odd view of the world! I'm not sure how the cynicism of either the book or my motives are being judged. Nobody writes an academic work of this kind for financial gain.

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  24. Just another cynical attempt at causing controversy in order to gain publicity for the release of his book. A book that has been publically derided even before its release. Written by a person that is reviled, despised and rejected by home educators.

    I thought your publishers had warned you that not all publicity is good publicity.

    Kren Zic

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  25. 'Simon Webb clearly did not undertake evidence based research for his self-opinionated book.'

    Since I am currently checking through the proofs and compliling the index, I am curious in the extreme to know how anybody is able to express any view upon the extent to which I indertook evidnece based research!

    'When a Judicial Review of Metropolitan Police Force policy finds against them for discrimination and persecution,'

    I don't know whethr the last two comments are meant ironically, but they both suggest that those making them have a somewhat tenuous grasp of reality. Whom are the Metorpolitan Police persecuting and what is the Judicial Review about.

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  26. Simon, you say,

    "There are countless blogs on the Internet and I doubt if many people will even know to whom I refer."

    This is probably true but presumably the person concerned would know? And if someone is in an unhappy space then why would you want to risk exacerbating that? It's just not *kind*, Simon. Can you really not see that? Or do you just not care about that sort of thing?

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  27. No one suggested that your claim for the book was persecution. Calm down and read properly Webb. Stop twisting things.

    Hardly 'academic' with such poor research!

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  28. 'I thought your publishers had warned you that not all publicity is good publicity.'

    Not that I recollect.

    ' A book that has been publically derided even before its release.'

    I like this, Kren Zic! Can I use it on the cover as part of the blurb?

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  29. The psychopath has antisocial traits coupled with and enhanced by callousness, ruthlessness, extreme lack of empathy, deficient impulse control, deceitfulness,

    Read more at Suite101: The Psychopath Antisocial: Devoid of Empathy http://www.suite101.com/content/psychopathantisocial-a1663#ixzz11y0l3Acv

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  30. 'The psychopath has antisocial traits coupled with and enhanced by callousness, ruthlessness, extreme lack of empathy, deficient impulse control, deceitfulness,'

    Ouch! As a longstanding member of the psychopath community, may I ask that those commenting use the more acceptable term 'sociopath' in future?

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  31. ' It's just not *kind*, Simon'

    Allie, all that i said was that I had been prompted to reflect upon this sucject by the increasingly fragile state of somebody. I hardly think this is pejorative. the person concerned has been posting details including medication and so on; I don't think that any attempt is being made to conceal this. Roughly 1% of the general population will suffer from disorders such as bipolar and other psychoses. My point is that just looking at the small sample of prominent home educators, the percentage seems considerably higher than this. I am not about to give details or names for obvious reasons, but when somebody voluntariy puts this inforamtion in the public domain, I see no reason at all not to mention it, provided I do not name the individual concerned.

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  32. 'Involvement with one of the 'free schools' in the early nineteen seventies.'

    Not HE.

    'Last twenty years or so working with families of children with special needs, helping them resolve their difficulties by in some cases de-registering from school.'

    Laudable, but not 100% HE, and also a very limited sub-set of those who HE.

    'Many friends who are teachers and social workers, local authority officers and so on.'

    Not HE.

    'Former member of both Education Otherwise and Home Education Advisory Service.'

    A lot of people used to pay membership fees there.

    'Worked during the eighties for Alice Hoffmann Homes with young people with autism. A number of these had been removed form school for various reasons and at that time the local authorites were very strongly opposed to this.'

    A very limited sub-set again.

    Did you attend HE meetings with your daughter with other HE'ers whilst a member of EO?

    Did you maintain any friendships with those families at all?

    What actual real home education experience to you have, beyond your own daughter?

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  33. "Involvement with one of the 'free schools' in the early nineteen seventies. Last twenty years or so working with families of children with special needs, helping them resolve their difficulties by in some cases de-registering from school. Many friends who are teachers and social workers, local authority officers and so on. Former member of both Education Otherwise and Home Education Advisory Service. Worked during the eighties for Alice Hoffmann Homes with young people with autism. A number of these had been removed form school for various reasons and at that time the local authorites were very strongly opposed to this. "

    Any contact with run of the mill home educators, those who don't want a school or have problems with LAs for one reason or another or SENs to cope with?

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  34. "The person concerned has posted a good deal about her distress and since this is in the public space, I hardly think it inappropriate to take notice of it."

    And you really don't think that highlighting her distress and making use of it in order to make a point in a blog article (especially by someone she obviously disagrees strongly with) isn't going to do more harm than good? You really lack empathy don't you, especially considering that your work involves supporting underprivileged families and children with SEN.

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  35. ''Involvement with one of the 'free schools' in the early nineteen seventies.'

    Not HE.'

    I don't think you really know about this. Parents who took their children from school used to meet together in HE groups. Because the LAs used to threaten them with prosecution, some of them started calling themselves 'free schools'. Not to be confused with the modern term.

    'Many friends who are teachers and social workers, local authority officers and so on.'

    Not HE.

    Except that many of them deal with home education. You asked what my experience was.

    'What actual real home education experience to you have, beyond your own daughter?'

    Do you mean have I actually home educated any other child but my own? I'm not sure what you are asking here, nor why.

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  36. 'Any contact with run of the mill home educators, those who don't want a school or have problems with LAs for one reason or another or SENs to cope with? '

    Yes, of course.

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  37. Strange how neither you or your daughter have ever mentioned HE friends when the issue of socialisation has cropped up in interviews. Strange that no one has been willing to admit knowing you off line. No groups have mentioned that you have attended meetings. Or are none of them on the internet?

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  38. 'Strange how neither you or your daughter have ever mentioned HE friends when the issue of socialisation has cropped up in interviews. Strange that no one has been willing to admit knowing you off line. No groups have mentioned that you have attended meetings. Or are none of them on the internet? '

    Strange that I know nothing about your own life, if it comes to that! I have revealed quite a bit about my life; perhaps you would like to disclose a little about yours. For example your name, the names of some of your HE friends, groups you have attended, that sort of thing. The flow of information and personal details seems to be going all one way at the moment.

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  39. >>>''Involvement with one of the 'free schools' in the early nineteen seventies.'

    >>Not HE.'

    >I don't think you really know about this. Parents who took their children from school used to meet together in HE groups.
    >Because the LAs used to threaten them with prosecution, some of them started calling themselves 'free schools'. Not to
    >be confused with the modern term. '

    If you were involved in the early 70's, how were you involved? Did you have children whom you had withdrawn from school, or were you involved in some other capacity?

    >>>Many friends who are teachers and social workers, local authority officers and so on.'

    >>Not HE.

    > Except that many of them deal with home education. You asked what my experience was.

    Yes, I asked what your experience was. That was their experience, what was yours?

    >>> 'What actual real home education experience to you have, beyond your own daughter?'

    >> Do you mean have I actually home educated any other child but my own? I'm not sure what you are asking here, nor
    >>why.

    No that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what *real* experience you have, direct face to face with other HE'ers, other HE children, who do not fall into one of those sub-sets of special needs etc.


    Did you attend HE meetings with your daughter with other HE'ers whilst a member of EO?

    Did you maintain any friendships with those families at all?

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  40. 'If you were involved in the early 70's, how were you involved? Did you have children whom you had withdrawn from school, or were you involved in some other capacity?'

    Quite a few questions, but just as with anonymous, no disclosure of your own life, not even your full name. I have probably given quite enough of my CV and life experiences to be going on with. Perhaps it is now time for you to share with us some aspects of your own life. You know my real name, perhaps you could tell me yours. Then you could tell us things such as the age of your children, whether you are an ideological home educator or felt compelled to remove your child from school due to difficulties. Then perhaps a bit about your experience of home edcaution with other people and their children. As I remarked earlier, the information all seems to be going one way and the questions become more and more intrusive. If you wish for us to get to know each other, then you muct also open up a little.

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  41. Simon, I apologise if I've made you feel defensive at all. I am (genuinely) interested in reading your forth coming book.

    The price-tag is too hefty just to impulse buy, so I don't want to make a purchase without knowing some more.

    As you'll know, with HE, you don't have to have any accreditations as such to do it, but what you do have (and build whilst doing so, as a HE'ing parent) is experience.

    I'm interested to ascertain what level of first-hand experience you have, of the full spectrum of elective HE, before pre-ordering.

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  42. You have not made me feel defensive. I am sure that your local lending library will be able to order the book for you. £18.99 is a bit steep, but the books by that particular publisher are really intended to be bought by local authorities and so on. This means that the prices are a little high as it is not individuals who are paying. You could always try 'Home Education' by Deborah Durbin, Hodder Headline, £9.99 or 'Learning without school' by Ross Mountney. These are designed more for the general reader.

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  43. I would still be interested in your responses to the questions asked, but if that's a little difficult, I understand.

    Thanks for the alternative suggestions, much appreciated!

    Also, has the book been updated with the current status quo RE: Elective HE in the UK, the Amazon description seemed a little out of date ?

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  44. Yes, it has been updated and is up to date in every respect! The Amazon but has been there for ages and was composed before the end of Schedule 1 of the CSF Bill.

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  45. "Quite a few questions, but just as with anonymous, no disclosure of your own life, not even your full name. I have probably given quite enough of my CV and life experiences to be going on with."

    Well you've been so open about so many aspects of yours and your daughter's lives, even to the extent of inviting film crews into your home, taking part in TV discussion programmes, giving interviews to several journalists, etc. You do not seem to especially value yours or your daughter's privacy, unlike myself. Your lack of candour in such a small area, especially when your usual openness would prove your point, support your position as an authority on HE and support book sales, suggests you have something to hide - such as very little contact with 'ordinary' home educators and certainly none on a regular basis.

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  46. I am rather interested to know what Simon's involvement with the fledgling HE movement in the 70's was, as I've yet to come across someone 'from back then' as it were.

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  47. You evidently spend little time on the Internet if something as innocuous as this disgusts you. Might I suggest that if your sensibilities are so readily shocked, then you could perhaps consider taking up cross-stitch or water colour painting rather than surfing the net? You would run less risk of being exposed to unpleasantness.

    No I said YOU disgust me. I am not shocked at all.

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  48. "I am thinking more of the effect on a child of spending most of their waking hours with a person whose world view might be horribly distorted and irrational."

    Um, Matthew 7 verses 3-5 Simon.

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  49. '"I am thinking more of the effect on a child of spending most of their waking hours with a person whose world view might be horribly distorted and irrational."

    Um, Matthew 7 verses 3-5 Simon'

    I won't debate the point with you. Pro. 26.4

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  50. 1 Samuel 2:3

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  51. "I am rather interested to know what Simon's involvement with the fledgling HE movement in the 70's was, as I've yet to come across someone 'from back then' as it were."

    Yes, it is intriguing. He must have been in his 20s at the time. Can't think how he could have been involved in HE in the sense we talk about it today unless he was employed as a tutor for home educators? Possibly he is counting involvement with free schools, which as you say isn't HE. Or maybe this is his second family.

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  52. "I am thinking more of the effect on a child of spending most of their waking hours with a person whose world view might be horribly distorted and irrational."

    Maybe you should ask Simone? You've managed to spend years listening to examples of how autonomous educators 'teach' their children in various ways (including specific examples such as working through a phonics course books, text books or correspondence courses together at a child's request), yet still believe that they AEs don't believe in teaching their children anything. Sounds distorted and irrational to me.

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  53. IMO, all statists hold a world view that is "horribly distorted and irrational." LOLOL

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  54. Well wasnt it Lowri Turner who expressed the view there was something more than a little amiss in the relationship between Simon and Simone
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0AQuqo7IAg

    Maybe this is what happens when a child spends all their time with someone distorted and irrational- who interestingly refuses to confirm attendance or socialising with any other home educators. Scary really!
    Anon Mk2

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  55. You are a bastard Simon Webb, you are an inadequate little man with no life now you daughter doesn't need you.

    You have very poor thinking skill and a fluent use of language that disguises a pragmatic and semantic difficulty.

    May you reap what you sow.

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  56. 'Well wasnt it Lowri Turner who expressed the view there was something more than a little amiss in the relationship between Simon and Simone
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0AQuqo7IAg'

    'You are a bastard Simon Webb, you are an inadequate little man with no life now you daughter doesn't need you.'

    Yes well, they are all coming out of the woodwork now and no mistake! I am enchanted to see somebody try and use the old incest gag against me that was used on the Wright Stuff. I am not at all sure that hinting at abuse in this way is wise for home edcuators generally, but I dare say whoever did it knows her own business best.

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  57. 'The Herby One said...
    IMO, all statists hold a world view that is "horribly distorted and irrational." LOLOL '

    This is pretty bonkers. Statism is a belief in centralised government control. All the ideas put forward for the monitoring and supervision of home edcaution have entailed the powers being devolved to local authorities. This is really, I suppose, some species of federalism. It is the precise opposite of statism.

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  58. 'You are a bastard Simon Webb, you are an inadequate little man with no life now you daughter doesn't need you.

    You have very poor thinking skill and a fluent use of language that disguises a pragmatic and semantic difficulty.

    May you reap what you sow. '

    Maire Stafford was responsible for the above, being apparently unwilling to reveal her identity here. I am happy to make this clear. It is to be hoped that her own daughter needs her.

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  59. 'As I say, I would be interested to know if anybody else has the feeling that the proportion of mentally ill parents is higher among home educators than the general population?'

    No. Interesting question, but the answer is no.

    Based on 15 years of experience, living in 2 different areas and being involved in (or setting up) several different home ed groups during that time.

    It's a shame that almost all of your experience of HE'ers has been online, Simon. I do think your portrayal of HE in the UK would be entirely different had you actually the kinds of experiences the rest of us have.

    At one time you actually denied that there *was* HE community. I'm actually sad for you. I know that some dads do find themselves on the outside of the HE groups a little. It must be awkward for them.

    But the problem with online activity is that people have a tendancy to behave like nutters even when they aren't. It's odd.

    Mrs Anon

    ReplyDelete
  60. Simon, is your reluctantance to engage with me on the questions I've asked due to not knowing enough about me or due to a difficulty with the questions asked?

    ReplyDelete
  61. Who mentioned incest Simon? I didnt... Im not even sure its exactly what Lowri Turner was hinting at. Just the unnatural and uncomfortable vibe you and your daughter were clearly giving off when she met you. You know, theres a stereotype applied to all home educators of the odd, socially awkward child and parent as a result of not integrating/socialising outside of the family.
    You fit it rather well Simon and Simone, however its interesting to note that in more than four years of home educating Im yet to meet anyone else who strikes me as fitting that stereotype. I strongly suspect thats because the home eductors I meet all make a huge effort to ensure their children meet up with other home educated children and schooled children alike.
    You on the other hand seem to be unknown to anyone in the home educating community- except as an ill informed but sadly 'listened to' troll- because you say what certain authorities want to hear

    ReplyDelete
  62. 'Who mentioned incest Simon? I didnt... Im not even sure its exactly what Lowri Turner was hinting at.'

    Well when she said of my daughter, 'she's more like his wife than his daughter', I must admit that i thought that she was talking of incest. So did the audience to whom we talked afterwards.

    'You fit it rather well Simon and Simone'

    Good tactic of using my daughter to attack me! I like this one.

    ReplyDelete
  63. 'DaveW said...
    Simon, is your reluctantance to engage with me on the questions I've asked due to not knowing enough about me or due to a difficulty with the questions asked? '

    If I give out further information, I will not just be engaging with you. The information will be available to anybody on the planet with a computer! You have a great deal of information about me and yet we know nothing of you at all. Why not share a little about yourself. If you feel unable to do so here in public, then you can email me at simon.webb14@btinternet.com. I am happy to talk, but beyond certain limits wish to know to whom I am talking first.

    ReplyDelete
  64. I note you STILL refuse to answer to any of the points raised Simon. Are we then to believe that you did exactly what you speak out so strongly against and apply to other home educators? That you made no effort to ensure your child was integrated well into society mixing with a broad spectrum of people? Was your child hidden apart from the world, save perhaps for contact with yourself and tutors?
    Ill say it again, NOBODY seems to know you, NOBODY appears to recall meeting you at any social event/group etc.

    ReplyDelete
  65. 'I note you STILL refuse to answer to any of the points raised Simon. Are we then to believe that you did exactly what you speak out so strongly against and apply to other home educators? That you made no effort to ensure your child was integrated well into society mixing with a broad spectrum of people? Was your child hidden apart from the world, save perhaps for contact with yourself and tutors?
    Ill say it again, NOBODY seems to know you, NOBODY appears to recall meeting you at any social event/group etc.'

    As I have already made clear, I will not be badgered into disclosing more personal information than I see fit. You say, ' NOBODY seems to know you, NOBODY appears to recall meeting you at any social event/group etc.'
    This is completely bizarre. A minority of home edcauting parentsd belong to organisations such as Education Otherwise. of those who do belong, even fewer become actively involved. The great majority of home edcautors simply get on with educating their children. I know seven home edcuating parents in this area. Two belong to EO, none attend any groups. This is because the nearest Essex groups are in Colcehster and Southend, about thirty miles away. There are groups in London, but for parents on benefits, even the £15 or so for the travel cards represents quite an expense. You seem to be under the impression that most home educators meet regularly with other home educators, but this is not really the case.

    ' save perhaps for contact with yourself and tutors?'

    Tutors??

    ReplyDelete
  66. So not only does nobody know you, you say you didnt use any tutors. Youre painting a grim and rather sad picture. Your poor daughter being educated in isolation by a controlling, delusional father.
    Poor Simone

    ReplyDelete
  67. 'So not only does nobody know you, you say you didnt use any tutors. Youre painting a grim and rather sad picture. Your poor daughter being educated in isolation by a controlling, delusional father.
    Poor Simone'

    Excellent use of the very imagery so beloved of those who are opposed to home edcuation. Combined with the hints of incest and abuse which we saw earlier, this person is determined to use all the old stereotypes of home educated children; isolated, lonely, socially inept and probably at risk of abuse. You don't really need me to help you with this cliched idea of home education, you're doing fine by yourself!



    'So not only does nobody know you, you say you didnt use any tutors.'

    I honestly don't remember saying that nobody knows me. I am known to seven home educators in Loughton, Epping and Buckhurst Hill. They are not members of online communities though, nor do they attend any groups. By your definition, this makes them non-persons of course as home educators! And what on earth is all this about tutors? How many home educating parents can afford, or even want, to engage tutors? I'm not at all sure that it is I who has an odd view of home education.

    ReplyDelete
  68. "Maire Stafford was responsible for the above, being apparently unwilling to reveal her identity here. I am happy to make this clear."

    *If* it is Maire, and you have a long history of mistaking me for other people when I make comments here so I have good reason to doubt your guess, I wouldn't be surprised if she were angry given that you have used her distress to make a point in a blog article. Something calculated to upset someone even more if they are already in a distressed state, especially given your past exchanges. And now you decide to ridicule her further. One can only assume that she must have hurt you more than you have revealed in the past. Hurt you to the extent that you feel the need to hit her when she is down. Unless you are just naturally vindictive and cruel.

    ReplyDelete
  69. "If I give out further information, I will not just be engaging with you. The information will be available to anybody on the planet with a computer! "

    But Simon, a quick Google will give anyone your name, address and a list of your daughters past hobbies and current activities. How can the information Dave has asked for be considered more private?

    ReplyDelete
  70. "I am known to seven home educators in Loughton, Epping and Buckhurst Hill. "

    So after all the protests you tell? Was that so difficult? How did you meet these fellow home educators if they don't belong to groups of any kind? I'm surprised someone lacking any interest in group activities would go to the effort of contacting a stranger they read about in the local newspaper, for instance. Much more normal to contact people who are also looking for contacts themselves.

    When you say you are known to them, does this mean that you and Simone spent time with them and their children? Or do they just, literally, know you? Maybe they met you once in the street and mentioned reading the article, or maybe they are the families you have helped de-register as part of you charity work. Actually, being known to 7 other home educators doesn't answer the question at all.

    I agree with Mrs Anon when she says, "
    It's a shame that almost all of your experience of HE'ers has been online, Simon. I do think your portrayal of HE in the UK would be entirely different had you actually the kinds of experiences the rest of us have."

    If you had had the experiences with groups like the rest of us, there is no way you would be able to say their is no community of home educators.

    Not saying that all home educators belong to groups. I know there are some who have no contact with groups and others don't even know they exist. But you are claiming to know far more about HE than you really do if you have never been part of a HE community and met and mixed with 100s of families over the years as many of us have. I cannot see how someone with you experience (or lack of it) should view themselves as knowledgeable enough to write a book about HE on the basis that you are an insider.

    ReplyDelete
  71. '*If* it is Maire, and you have a long history of mistaking me for other people when I make comments here so I have good reason to doubt your guess,'

    Click on 'a human being just trying to understand'. then go and compare it with Maire Stafford's profile on her blog. There is not the least doubt that this is the same person.

    ' And now you decide to ridicule her further.'

    No, I wouldn't say so. If somebody mentions my daughter, as in;

    ' no life now you daughter doesn't need you.'

    it seems quite acceptable to mention hers. Perhaps it would best if we all avoided using people's children to score debating points against one another?

    ReplyDelete
  72. 'should view themselves as knowledgeable enough to write a book about HE on the basis that you are an insider.'

    I don't think that you really understand what an academic book is. It is one which has been properly researched and referenced according to an accepted system, in this case the Harvard System. It is not necessary to be a Kalahari Bushman in order to write an academic book about life in Namibia. May I also point out that I tried to get others to join in the writing of this book when I started? I actually planned to devote an entire chapter to allowing autonomous educators to speak directly to the LAs. As a final point, why on earth doesn't somebody else write a book about home education in this way? Kelly Green's book is one such, but there is plenty of scope for a book about elective home education in the UK. Instead of moaning because I have written a book about this, why don't others get cracking?

    ReplyDelete
  73. Don't confuse the robots with the person Webb, it is both simpler and more complicated than you can imagine.

    ReplyDelete
  74. "I don't think that you really understand what an academic book is. It is one which has been properly researched and referenced according to an accepted system, in this case the Harvard System."

    Ahhh, so you have carried out a research study and this is the basis for your book? How did you study home educators? Online, or in real life? I don't think a sample of 7 families really cuts it Simon.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Im struggling to imagine what might be in this book which could possibly be contruted as academic research? One parents experience coupled with "knowing" ( after a fashion) 7 others in a couple of local authorities.. I presume your book will be full of derission for the well founded acedemic research already published into home education. I think perhaps I should buy a copy, firstly for the comedic value but also for the fantasy role play aspects and how not to write an academic text.
    Oh how I look forward to reading the reviews on Amazon!!

    ReplyDelete
  76. '"knowing" ( after a fashion) 7 others in a couple of local authorities'

    I really do like this! It is not often that one can actually see the construction of a myth in progress, so this is worth following carefully. I am thoroughly looking forward to reading in the future that I only ever knew seven home educating parents personally.

    ReplyDelete
  77. so tell us Simon, who do you know, who knows you? where did you attend social events with other home ed parents? Youve never been shy about the details before- now they come under closer scrutiny and you look like the hypocritical bully that you are you refuse to answer..So convenient that the families you claim to know arent on the internet. Id say thats something of an extraordinary rarity amongst home educators

    ReplyDelete
  78. '..So convenient that the families you claim to know arent on the internet.'

    The problem here Anonymous, is that you are simply generating as many weird ideas and questions as possible and hoping that you might score a hit with one of them. I did not say that these families were not on the Internet; I said that they did not belong to any online communities. This is not particularly uncommon. I often assume when writing here that most readers will be au fait with developments on HE-UK and EO, but many do not follow these lists.

    'Youve never been shy about the details before'

    If by this, you mean that I have revealed some details of my life in the past, this is quite true. There is of course a world of difference between choosing to share selected information on the Internet with complete strangers and allowing somebody to try and cross examine me in this way. The one, I will do whenever the mood takes me. The other, I will not allow.

    ReplyDelete
  79. 'so tell us Simon, who do you know, who knows you? where did you attend social events with other home ed parents?'

    If it comes to that Anonymous, how about you sharing this information with us? Who knows you? Where do you attend social events? There is a slight difficulty when one side has been very open about details of his life and the person asking the questions will not even tell me his name. Let's see who can vouch for you. I know that I was a home educator for many years, but I do not know the same about you! You could be anybody.

    ReplyDelete
  80. "I am thoroughly looking forward to reading in the future that I only ever knew seven home educating parents personally."

    So, roughly how many home educating families have you and Simone met and spent significant amounts of time with, not including those you meet through your charity or any other work or the work of friends or acquaintances? At a rough guess we've met and spent varying amounts of time with 100's of families, if I include single workshops and afternoons at a social HE meetings, and probably about 15 if I just include regular (as in 20+ meetings) informal get-togethers with one or two families in our own homes and on visits we arrange to make together rather than with a group.

    ReplyDelete
  81. "If it comes to that Anonymous, how about you sharing this information with us? Who knows you? Where do you attend social events? There is a slight difficulty when one side has been very open about details of his life and the person asking the questions will not even tell me his name."

    But anonymous is not writing books and supporting it with claims of being knowledgeable about the HE community because they are part of it. You are.

    another anon.

    ReplyDelete
  82. "But anonymous is not writing books and supporting it with claims of being knowledgeable about the HE community because they are part of it. You are."

    Yes, you made a claim and now you're being called on it. Obviously you are free to support this claim with evidence or not, and conversely we are free to draw whatever conclusions we want from your evidence or lack of evidence. If your book is academic, doesn't it include the sources of your information? As you are claiming to be part of the HE community (that's your position of authority for writing this book isn't it?), shouldn't it therefore include evidence of this?

    ReplyDelete
  83. 'But anonymous is not writing books and supporting it with claims of being knowledgeable about the HE community because they are part of it. You are.'


    'As you are claiming to be part of the HE community (that's your position of authority for writing this book isn't it?)'

    I honestly do not know where these mad stories come from! What my publisher says, and what will appear on the cover of the book itself, is;

    'Simon Webb educated his daughter at home and has a blog on home schooling. He has also worked for many years with children who have special educational needs.'

    Where are you getting all this stuff about my authority to write this book? I am genuinely puzzled about this. I educated my daughter at home, have a blog on the subject and have worked for years with SEN kids. Where does all the other stuff come from?

    ReplyDelete
  84. "It examines the history of the practice and reveals why more and more parents are choosing not to send their children to school... The author identifies key areas of conflict between home educators and local authorities and suggests ways that these can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction."

    If the above information in your book is not based on personal experience within the HE community, how did you gain it? Is it opinion or academically referenced?

    ReplyDelete
  85. 'Is it opinion or academically referenced? '

    The history is referenced, the final chapter contains my own recommendations. You have not yet told me where you have come across the idea that I am claiming some sort of authority for writing this book?

    ReplyDelete
  86. 'If your book is academic, doesn't it include the sources of your information?'

    The method used is the Harvard referencing system. I am not running an online college here. If anybody wishes to know how this system works, I am afraid that they will have to find out for themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Your publishers claim on your behalf that you identify key areas of conflict between home educators and LAs and also why parents choose to HE today. You state that it is an academic book, which usually means researched rather than just opinion. Opinion in this instance would only be significant and academic if you know what you are talking about and to know what you are talking about you would need to know what happens in practice. The only claim to support this that I can see is the fact that you have been a home educator which would only tell you why you chose to HE and how you interacted with your LA. How can you know what happens in practice in the whole community if you are not part of the HE community and you have not studied it?

    ReplyDelete
  88. I know how to reference. But how do you reference your opinion? How can you call the opinion sections academic if they are not based on research or experience? I doubt anyone is going to object to you regurgitating other peoples research. It's your opinions on why people HE and their interactions with LAs that they are more likely to be concerned with.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I really am interested now to know why nobody here has written a book about home education from an autonomous perspective? As is often the case, as soon as somebody actually writes a book, all those who could not be bothered to do so themselves line up to moan about it. In this cse, the truly weird thing is that they are doing this before they have read the book. This kind of Alice in Wonderland approach, criticising and complaining about a book before it has even been published, is rather typical of a certain strand of British home education!

    ReplyDelete
  90. 'But how do you reference your opinion? How can you call the opinion sections academic if they are not based on research or experience?'

    OK, as I say I am not running an online college on this subject and this is the last of my time I am prepared to give for free on this. One might read an academic book putting forward a theory that stonehenge was built by the Celts. The author will cite references in support of this idea and then carefully distinguish his own views on the matter. He might, for instance, say;

    'Some have argued that these megaliths date from the Neolithic (Smith 1899, Jones 1960). The present author contends that a later date is quite in keeping with the evidence (Brown 1945).

    It is thus possible to express an opinion in an academic work while still referencing it. I think that any further debate would be pointless, at least until those commenting have familiarised themselves thoroughly with the conventions for work of this kind.

    ReplyDelete
  91. The mental health of home educating parents?

    WTF?

    ReplyDelete
  92. So have you made it clear in your book that the parts of your book that cover,

    "why more and more parents are choosing not to send their children to school... The author identifies key areas of conflict between home educators and local authorities"

    are personal opinion and guesswork? I mean, these are both areas that one would really expect to be based on research (yours or others) rather than opinion in an academic book. They are not matters of fact, not opinion. There are particular reasons why home educators choose to HE and there are particular reasons for and particular types of conflict. I really cannot see where a person's opinion about these are relevant or useful at all. Opinion may be relevant to possible solutions but what's the point of putting forward solutions to problems that may not even exist in the real world?

    ReplyDelete
  93. "They are not matters of fact, not opinion."

    Obviously that should have read:

    They are matters of fact, not opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  94. I'm interested in discourse too, but, I'm not sure it's possible. You seem to be an intelligent man, you've educated your own daughter, you're helped people a variety of situations, you've written a book, you've dealt with people such as Lowri Turner in a television studio situation, but, you seem to be at a loss as to how to respond to someone whom you cannot build any preconceptions about.

    I can see that many provoke you here, but, your approach to communication does not help you with that.

    About myself; I am someone who was thinking of buying your book, and I am interested to know what basis within the real live HE community, of 2010, it actually has. Depending on whether it does, this may help me on a professional basis.

    Your Amazon description states:
    " this book provides a comprehensive and factual account of this increasingly controversial topic"

    What I'm trying ascertain is, what the factual basis of the book is.

    I understand asking questions about your real-life involvement in HE groups, and your child's socialisation may have been difficult ones for you to respond to in this medium, so I won't revisit those questions, so I'll keep things succinct.

    What was your actual involvement with the 'free schools' in the 1970's (in what capacity) ?

    What first-hand research or experience, beyond the internet, was used within the book?

    ReplyDelete
  95. was it the Islington free school?

    ReplyDelete
  96. Simon wrote,
    "This is completely bizarre. A minority of home edcauting parentsd belong to organisations such as Education Otherwise. of those who do belong, even fewer become actively involved. The great majority of home edcautors simply get on with educating their children. I know seven home edcuating parents in this area."

    Do you have any evidence for this? I realise that only a minority are members of organisations but this doesn't stop them attending groups. Very few group members I know actually belong to an organisation and very few groups insist on membership of an organisation, especially now EO doesn't even offer insurance cover for groups. I've not seen any research into number of HE'ers who network and those that just get on with educating their children and would be interested in a reference.

    I've actually moved from one extreme to the other, being a member of many groups for the first 7-8 years and just getting on with it for about 7-8 years (though we have maintained several friendships stemming from the original group membership period).

    ReplyDelete
  97. "I really am interested now to know why nobody here has written a book about home education from an autonomous perspective?"

    There are several books and not just those by Jan FW. Does this mean you didn't research them for your book?

    ReplyDelete
  98. 'There are several books and not just those by Jan FW. Does this mean you didn't research them for your book?'

    Indeed I did have to plough through Jan Fortune-Wood's book! I meant a serious book about autonomous home education, properly researched and not merely an extended polemic. Particularly in the light of the Badman review, I would have thought that somebody might have wished to put the autonomous view across to the general public and also the edcautional world.

    ReplyDelete
  99. There's no shortage of reading material on that subject at my newsletter website freely available to any member of the general public who's interested. Not sure what you mean by "and also the educational world". What I've been doing for the past eight years is in the educational world.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Crikey , interesting subject nullified by a rude man with mental health issues=> trolling (active relentless dissent/abuse to limit/reduce free discussion).
    My ha'penneth: mental health is almost entirely subjective, and should not imply abuse; such stigma usually lies in the eye of the beholder.
    Which is better the active imperfect support of a childs education, or the common neglect of kids shipped off to school full of parental derision, and systemic failure to provide qualities and qualifications for a 'happy life'. That's me derided as a conspiracy theorist then, but I like many others touched by mental illness, we are just proactive parents taking responsibility for their children, both now for the future.
    I conclude mental health issues are no reason no to home educate, but all parties should be open to constructive discussion and support.

    ReplyDelete
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