Some readers may be unfamiliar with the expression 'coercive parenting'. It is used by some very liberal and laid back parents to describe what most of us would call responsible parenting; setting boundaries for our children, seeing that they clean their teeth at night and go to bed at a suitable time; this sort of thing. The idea of coercive parenting or coercive education is popular among some autonomously educating parents. They present it as the undesirable opposite of their own methods. Some ordinary parents say that they find the term 'coercive parenting' offensive. Personally, I find the very idea of 'coercive parenting' absurd. Let us look at this peculiar notion and see what we can make of it.
To begin with, I suppose that these people cannot be referring to physical coercion. It is literally impossible to force a child to eat a carrot or even put on her coat simply by using physical force. You certainly could not use physical force to compel a child to learn about the Tudors! Obviously, 'coercive parenting' must refer to trying to manipulate children emotionally and psychologically into doing as you wish. Now I would have no objection to doing this myself, if it worked. The problem is that it does not and cannot work. I wonder if any parents reading this have tried to use such techniques to cajole or bribe their toddlers into eating a healthy, balanced diet? 'Please, Jimmy, just try a mouthful of that delicious broccoli. How do you know you won't like it if you don't even taste it? All right, then you won't be having any pudding' The very thought of this sort of carry-on is enough to turn my blood cold! You might manage to create an eating disorder in a child like this; you certainly won't produce one who naturally eats a healthy diet in later life.
I have been viewed by some as a coercive parent myself, one who chose an academic path for his daughter rather than a musical or artistic one. I was asked on here recently what I would do if my daughter chose not to go to university. Again, my objections to using psychological manipulation of a child is not based upon ethical considerations but upon the fact that such efforts are doomed to failure. It is quite impossible to prevent a seventeen year-old girl from doing anything she wants. If my daughter chose to drop out of college, get pregnant or start injecting heroin; there would be absolutely nothing I could do about it. I remember vividly in the late sixties and early seventies when there were plenty of parents who believed firmly in 'coercive parenting' although they did not call it that. They tried to ensure that their daughters remained virgins until they got married, did not drink, kept away from unsuitable boys and avoided smoking cannabis. It was an utterly hopeless enterprise. The girls simply lied and deceived their parents wholesale. Those wished to have sex or take drugs did so and those who chose not to refrained. The parental attitude made no difference at all.
This does not mean that I do not believe that firm boundaries are unnecessary for a teenage girl, just as they are for a toddler. It means that I have a different idea as to how they should be maintained. I have never been one to believe either that my child is a better judge than me of what she needs to being doing academically. The whole of her course of study was laid out according to my plan and she pursued it willingly. This was not a case of forcing a reluctant child to do things which she would rather not do. It was a question of gaining her cooperation and working with her to these ends. Tomorrow I shall discuss 'cooperative parenting', which I see as the antithesis of both authoritarian parenting and letting a child dictate the course of her own life freely.
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"I was asked on here recently what I would do if my daughter chose not to go to university."
ReplyDeleteI'm interested in what you would feel if this happened. Clearly there'd be very little you could do. But would you be disappointed? Do you continue to have goals for your daughter now she is grown up? Do you want her to get a 1st and win prizes and get a PhD? Or are you now happy for her to abandon academic pursuits if that's what she chooses?
I'm interested in how it must feel if you do have very clear outcomes in mind for your child. I suppose I do have things I want for my children but they're very vague - basically anything that makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
'Do you continue to have goals for your daughter now she is grown up? '
ReplyDeleteThis is a very good question, Allie. I certainly have very stong opinions upon what is the best course of action for my daughter in the future. I think that one of the hard things as one's children grow up is knowing when you have to grit your teeth and say nothing. Indeed, you must not only say nothing, but sometimes not even betray by your expression that you think that they are making idiotic choices!
Truly, I would not be best pleased if my daughter now announced that she was going to drop further education entirely and take up some non-academic line of interest. It is to be hoped though that I would be able to conceal my feelings and allow her to go ahead with whatever it was. However, there are many other ways of influencing a teenager, other than the obvious one of shouting at her, 'You're throwing your life away!'
I agree with Allie somewhat here. I like you Simon, have a clear agenda of education in mind for my children, however, I also know there will come a point when the reins have to be loosened to allow for them to make their own choices. I don't know how I will react to that, but I hope not to become an overbearing mother who continually comes up 'with a better idea' because that would just be sending out the message that my kids can't really depend on their own decisions.
ReplyDeleteI'm fairly lucky that my kids know (at this moment in time) what they would like to pursue for a career in the future, so I can map out an education which is tailor suited (to the best of my ability) to what they will need in order to attain that goal.
However, I have to realise that there is a fine line between offering guidance, and that guidance becoming too regimented.
It's a balancing act, which I too am still learning to perfect.
This was an interesting post for me, as I'm sure you're aware I had a debate with someone commenting here about this subject last week. I think the term coercive parenting conjures up images of overbearing 'shouty' parents. Depending on your interpretation of coercive I think maybe we are coercive parents, personally I think we just have firm boundaries. If he wants to play on his games console in the evening then he needs to do certain things before that can happen such as tidy his toys away, put his dirty clothes in the laundry basket and put his coat on the hook. I don't shout, I don't make a big fuss and neither does he if he is unable to play games in the evening. He knows the deal and it's his choice if he does the things we ask or not.
ReplyDelete'However, I have to realise that there is a fine line between offering guidance, and that guidance becoming too regimented.'
ReplyDeleteThe main problem about offering guidance to a teenager is that it is likely to prove counter-productive and it is for this reason that I am opposed to trying to force kids that age to do things by making them feel guilty and so on. If I thought it would work, there is no telling how I would feel about this. The reality is, that if I suggested to my daughter that instead of studying politics, she might consider law, for example, this would probably create a desire in her not to touch law with a bargepole. If I then tried to pressure her into the idea, her resistence would stiffen and we would be locked in a fruitless battle. And of course, she would not study law anyway, so all the unpleasantness would have been in vain. With teenagers, one must follow the scriptural injunction and be as cunning as a serpent and as gentle as a dove!
"The idea of coercive parenting or coercive education is popular among some autonomously educating parents. They present it as the undesirable opposite of their own methods."
ReplyDeleteI think what happens is a bit like school and HE. When a parent says to another that they intend to HE, the school using parent sometimes perceives this as a criticism of their parenting choices. But isn't this true every time one family makes a different choice to another about anything? I obviously think coercion is harmful if I try to avoid it, other equally obviously think that avoiding coercion is harmful. Some people see it as a criticism of their choice, I prefer to see it as someone making a different choice because it suits their family better than the choice I've made.
"Obviously, 'coercive parenting' must refer to trying to manipulate children emotionally and psychologically into doing as you wish. Now I would have no objection to doing this myself, if it worked."
I think it refers more to methods like the naughty step, withdrawal of privileges, overuse/artificial of praise and disapproval in order to encourage or discourage certain behaviours, etc, and plenty of people swear by them. Coercion is a key concept within the Taking Children Seriously theory and is defined as, "(roughly speaking) doing things to people, or making them do things, against their will". They go on to say, "a major difference between TCS and other educational philosophies is the idea that it is possible and desirable to raise children without intentionally coercing them." They believe it is harmful is for someone to place another person in that position (obviously it can happen without someone causing it to happen). For anyone interested, there in an introductory article here, www.takingchildrenseriously.com/node/87
"This does not mean that I do not believe that firm boundaries are unnecessary for a teenage girl, just as they are for a toddler. It means that I have a different idea as to how they should be maintained."
How do you maintain them? What does this look like in practice?
"It was a question of gaining her cooperation and working with her to these ends. Tomorrow I shall discuss 'cooperative parenting', which I see as the antithesis of both authoritarian parenting and letting a child dictate the course of her own life freely."
I think you are misunderstanding non-coercive parenting, at least the TCS type. It involves a lot of common preference finding and problem solving - the children are not supposed to ride roughshod over their parents. It's also not good for a parent to be coerced, though they can probably cope with it better if we fail to find a solution, but this is a failure, not the default position. A TCS description of common preferences is here, www.takingchildrenseriously.com/common_preferences_and_non_coercion
I wonder if this line of thought is something pre-eminently western. Because as the child of thrid generation immigrants the very idea of coercive parenting being seen as ENTIRELY bad is complete nonsense. I grew up with very strict boundaries and sometimes punishments and rules were enforced with what would be termed abuse todday i.e. several smacks with the belt, no dinner, and plenty of shouting. Education in my early years growing up was administered with the threat of punishment for failure. I would use none of these extreme methods today with my own children, but I will say this: I read early and was several years ahead in school. There WERE benefits. (and I'm not saying that this outcome therefore justified their actions, or cannot be achieved through other means, merely proving that coercion can have desirable outcomes however much one might resent it at the time.) In third world countries punishment for academic failure can result in similar punishment. Education is expensive and parents there feel no such guilt for doing what they feel is ultimately in their childs long-term interest if they feel that child is in danger of dropping out or slacking.
ReplyDeleteI like to think that balanced parenting can include several methods. It's great when children do naturally what is good for them, but as a parent I see it as my responsibility to steer that child. I might leave them for a while, observe and hope they learn from a mistake, but it would depend on the gravity of the mistake.
I see the extreme opposite where I live. Children walking around till late at night, smoking cannabis etc with no one pulling them aside. Some of these children could do with a little 'coercion.'
Now my children aren't hot on maths but (AEers look away now) I tell them to get it done or forfeit something else. Sometimes I raise my voice. sometimes we don't go to a group if certain academic things are not done first. I do this because they cannot see how not having a good grounding in math etc, will affect their future lives, nor should they be expected too.
I don't know why that came out twice apologies
ReplyDeleteNo it didn't come out twice my computer messing up
ReplyDelete' He knows the deal and it's his choice if he does the things we ask or not.'
ReplyDeleteThis is precisely what I mean by cooperative parenting. In our family, we all have to do things we don't want to do. This might be cooking the dinner, cleaning the windows or studying maths. Anybody who opts out of their own duties cannot expect others to be keen on making their life easy.
'"This does not mean that I do not believe that firm boundaries are unnecessary for a teenage girl, just as they are for a toddler. It means that I have a different idea as to how they should be maintained."
ReplyDeleteHow do you maintain them? What does this look like in practice?'
I shall be posting about this tomorrow.
'I think you are misunderstanding non-coercive parenting, at least the TCS type. It involves a lot of common preference finding and problem solving - the children are not supposed to ride roughshod over their parents. '
ReplyDeleteExcept that on the TCS site, an example given is of a child refusing to wear a seatbelt. ultimately, this should apparently be accepted as the child's choice. I would call that riding roughshod over me if My child behaved in this way.
Simon said: The main problem about offering guidance to a teenager is that it is likely to prove counter-productive and it is for this reason that I am opposed to trying to force kids that age to do things by making them feel guilty and so on. If I thought it would work, there is no telling how I would feel about this. The reality is, that if I suggested to my daughter that instead of studying politics, she might consider law, for example, this would probably create a desire in her not to touch law with a bargepole. If I then tried to pressure her into the idea, her resistence would stiffen and we would be locked in a fruitless battle. And of course, she would not study law anyway, so all the unpleasantness would have been in vain. With teenagers, one must follow the scriptural injunction and be as cunning as a serpent and as gentle as a dove!
ReplyDeleteI remember once my mother suggesting that I pop into college and study to become a legal secretary. Needeless to say, at the time, I thought the idea was rubbish and steered in completely the opposite direction. So yes, I understand what you are saying.
However, I do think there is a marked difference between girls and boys, and the reaction you are likely to get, when using methods of guidance.
Do you have any sons, Simon?
And I agree that this may be a somewhat sweeping statement, and it is not meant to cause offense to anyone, but quite definitely there is a difference between how boys react to gentle pursuasion, and how girls react to it.
Your own personal findings may be coloured by a factor you may not have taken into account.
'I see the extreme opposite where I live. Children walking around till late at night, smoking cannabis etc with no one pulling them aside. Some of these children could do with a little 'coercion.''
ReplyDeleteYou have put your finger right on it here. Being allowed to do what your please as a child can certainly become a bad habit and lead to an aimless and undisciplined lifestyle with no consideration for others.
'Do you have any sons, Simon?'
ReplyDeleteBy God's great mercy, I do not. I have no idea how I would have been as a father in that case; not a very good one I suspect. I think that the father/daughter relationship was probably integral to out home edcuation. However, I am sure that my wife would have been able to cope with a boy. Truth to tell, the very idea of rasing a son gives me the horrors!
'Your own personal findings may be coloured by a factor you may not have taken into account.'
ReplyDeleteThis is no doubt quite true. I have yet to meet the parent who is able to be objective and wholly rational about his or her experiences of raising a family!
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"Except that on the TCS site, an example given is of a child refusing to wear a seatbelt. ultimately, this should apparently be accepted as the child's choice. I would call that riding roughshod over me if My child behaved in this way."
Then you would probably have arrived at a different solution to the parent in that example. It sounds like an example of a failure to find a common preference - this happens, and in some cases the failure would involve coercion of the child and in others the parent. None of us are perfect and we shouldn't beat ourselves up over it, just try to learn from the situation and do better next time, I'm sure this is true for all parenting styles.
Simon wrote,
"The reality is, that if I suggested to my daughter that instead of studying politics, she might consider law, for example, this would probably create a desire in her not to touch law with a bargepole."
Can you not have conversations with your daughter about things like this without causing this reaction? Beginning a conversation with something like, 'have you ever considered studying law?', and then listening to and discussing her reasons for not choosing that direction or maybe getting into a discussion about the pros and cons if it's not something she's considered doesn't sound like a conversation that would cause someone to avoid considering the law at all costs.
"Being allowed to do what your please as a child can certainly become a bad habit and lead to an aimless and undisciplined lifestyle with no consideration for others."
ReplyDeleteGood thing that this isn't what TCS is about then.
'Can you not have conversations with your daughter about things like this without causing this reaction? '
ReplyDeleteOf course, but seventeen year-old are famously mercurial and prone to 'going off at the deep end'. It would be like playing Russian Roulette; it might be OK, but then again, it might not. Perhaps others have not found this with seventeen year-olds and if so, I am very happy for them. These are simply my own expreinces of this age group, both now and when I was myself seventeen.
This TCS quote seems relevant to the, 'aimless and undisciplined lifestyle', issue:
ReplyDelete"Another possible misinterpretation of TCS is the idea that coercion is always wrong – that if one child is attacking another with a cricket bat, it is wrong to intervene. On the contrary, it is vital to protect the victim, and that might well involve stopping the attacking child against his or her will, i.e., coercively. That there would have been a way to avoid this in the first place is, at such a moment, irrelevant for all practical purposes. But in the bigger picture, it is reassuring: if the good things in life could be obtained by mechanically following a rule, then only a wicked and unworthy parent would ever fail to find a common preference with their beloved child. But TCS is not a rule. When we say that it is possible and desirable to raise children without intentionally coercing them, we don't mean that if everything goes wrong sometimes, you must be an evil shit unworthy of life, what we mean is: hey, there's hope – things need not be like this for ever!"
'"Being allowed to do what your please as a child can certainly become a bad habit and lead to an aimless and undisciplined lifestyle with no consideration for others."
ReplyDeleteGood thing that this isn't what TCS is about then.'
I wasn't really thinking about TCS here. I was responding to a post by somebody who was describing her own neighbourhood.
"I wasn't really thinking about TCS here. I was responding to a post by somebody who was describing her own neighbourhood."
ReplyDeleteYes, I realised that, but it's often suggested that this sort of behaviour will be the outcome of TCS - that coercion is the only way to avoid it. The writer of the comment you responded to contrasted these children with her family, suggesting that the behaviour was result of a lack of coercion.
I think it's more likely that these extremes of bad behaviour are the result of harsh, inconsistent coercion with no reference to the morality of situations, possibly aimed at giving the parents a quite life. The coercion probably also included abandonment and/or neglect.
ReplyDelete"'He knows the deal and it's his choice if he does the things we ask or not.'
ReplyDeleteThis is precisely what I mean by cooperative parenting."
Well, it's a description of the child cooperating with the parent and suffering the consequences if they don't, certainly. TCS just makes cooperation more of a two way street - trying to help each other get what we want out of a situation through problem solving rather than just the parent telling the child to cooperate.
I've just seen the news about Japan, not had the TV on yet so a bit behind the times. Makes our concerns about coercing or not coercing pale into insignificance, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteAnon says-I see the extreme opposite where I live. Children walking around till late at night, smoking cannabis etc with no one pulling them aside. Some of these children could do with a little 'coercion.'
ReplyDeleteyes quite agree with you! and most of these kids go to schools! where Webb wanted to send home educated children who where not doing home education the right way!
another anon says-I've just seen the news about Japan, not had the TV on yet so a bit behind the times. Makes our concerns about coercing or not coercing pale into insignificance, doesn't it?
Not for those that are committed to geting children back into a state school like Webb/daughter/Ed balls M.P/ crazy old Badman.These types are 100% committed to finding abuse and home education being done the wrong way. their wont let the terrible earthquake in Japan get in their way!
http://childrenarepeople.blogspot.com/2009/05/trying-to-explain-tcs-in-public.html
ReplyDeleteThis old post might help with your post for tomorrow.
Seeking common preferences is closely related to co-operation though we may have subtly different definitions for these terms.
The children in our house are raised by parents influenced by TCS philosophy, they, the children, are pretty intolerant of other children who are unruly and indisciplined. They are learning self discipline, they take our advice most of the time. They don't want to hang out with coercive wild children.
I think there are 2 ways to have gentle "well behaved" children,
1. Frighten or embarrass them into it.
2. Behave in a gentle well behaved way and show them that that's a good way to be.
If you are not effective enough at the first then give up and do the second.
If you are good at the first read this book.
http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=2
and this one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winning-Parent-Child-Parenting-Everybody/dp/0954943309
It's weird how so many comments on this post have been about TCS.
ReplyDelete'Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt's weird how so many comments on this post have been about TCS.'
TCS is a very simple and easy to understand concept. It appeals to those who like a black and white universe where parents are either frightening or gentle. There is no room in such a world-view for the kind but firm parents or those who are authorititive without being overbearing. I can see the attraction, but it does not really deal with the real world or real parents.
No TCS accepts that parents are fallible that they will be frightening but that this is an error.
ReplyDelete"It's weird how so many comments on this post have been about TCS."
ReplyDeleteIn response to a post about coercive/non-coercive parenting and HE? Why is that weird?
"Tomorrow I shall discuss 'cooperative parenting', which I see as the antithesis of both authoritarian parenting and letting a child dictate the course of her own life freely."
ReplyDeleteFunnily enough, that's how TCS see their theory of non-coercive parenting.