I gained a good deal of pleasure from the accusation levelled at me yesterday by a well known figure in the home education world that I am a hypocrite. Elizabeth, part of the double act 'Luke and Elizabeth' whom some readers may have come across, felt that I was a hypocrite for mentioning that I thought that the Bible was inspired by God and that it's moral values were good ones to teach to a child.
One of the things which I have noticed in recent years is that as long as one talks of any scriptures or belief system which does not involve the Bible, people will be respectful and not offer any criticism. After all, we live in a pluralist society and must be tolerant of all faiths and none. What better way of showing our tolerance and adherence to the multicultural society than listening gravely and with a straight face while somebody tells us that he reads the Qu'ran, is a Buddhist, Pagan, Scientologist or follows Hare krishna. It costs nothing and allows us to feel virtuous. The exception to this rule is anybody who talks of, quotes from or shows any respect for the Bible. Such people are, almost by definition, hypocrites and self-righteous bigots. This ethos may be partly formed by television, where any character in either a drama or documentary who is seen with a Bible is shown to be unpleasant. If it is fiction, then as soon as we see somebody with a Bible, we know that this person is at best slightly eccentric, like Dot Cotton from Eastenders, or at worse a psychotic killer or child abuser. No normal people in television dramas have Bibles in their homes or attend church. Documentaries where people are seen next to Bibles invariably portray them as bigoted fools and often unstable and dangerous fools at that. It is almost a rule of modern television, that the Bible is shorthand code for madness and hypocrisy.
Yesterday, even referring to the contents of the Bible was enough to get me branded a hypocrite. I don't follow the ethical system of the Bible myself; I am not a Christian, but even suggesting that it was inspired by God and that its values were worth teaching was sufficient to reveal me as a self-righteous bigot.
I love this attitude, which says so much about our society. The people who feel this way have generally not read the Bible, nor would they have one in their homes. They would be happy for their friends to see a copy of the Qu'ran or a book about Buddhism, but they would rather die than have anybody see a Bible laying around the place! I have no objection at all to anybody regarding me as a hypocrite, I am certainly that. But they really should found this belief upon stronger grounds than the fact that I approve of the moral code contained in the Bible. Such condemnation says far more about them and their own beliefs than it can ever say about me and mine.
I come accross it all the time. I mention that I believe in God and the teachings of the Bible and I am laughed at.
ReplyDeleteHypocrisy is another matter though. Even though I believe in God I have found first-hand that Christians are amongst the most hypocritical, self-rigteous, judgemental people I have ever met and this leads me to be reluctant to label myself in this way. Not all Christians are like this Im sure, but I have really met only a handful who aren't. Maybe this is why they are criticised so much.
I'm mystified Simon. How can you say "I thought that the Bible was inspired by God and that it's moral values were good ones to teach to a child" *and* "I don't follow the ethical system of the Bible myself" and then take umbrage when people suggest that there might be some inconsistency in that (although such an inconsistency might not be technically 'hypocritical')?
ReplyDelete"No normal people in television dramas have Bibles in their homes or attend church".
ReplyDeleteWhat about The Simpsons? :)
Referring to the contents of the bible did not get you branded a hypocrite. It was the suggestion that the ideas in the bible are good with the implication that they should be taught to children and followed (especially the love and kindness to strangers bit), that got you branded a hypocrite, since you clearly fail to follow your own recommendations.
ReplyDelete'It was the suggestion that the ideas in the bible are good with the implication that they should be taught to children and followed (especially the love and kindness to strangers bit), that got you branded a hypocrite'
ReplyDelete'How can you say "I thought that the Bible was inspired by God and that it's moral values were good ones to teach to a child" *and* "I don't follow the ethical system of the Bible myself"'
Quite baffled here! I believe that the Bible is inspired by God and contains a lot of good advice on how to live. I also believe this to be true of the Qu'ran and other scriptures. There are things in both the Bible and Qu'ran which I would not accept as being the way to live and so am neither a Christian nor a Muslim. I think that children should be raised with a moral code and since I live in England, where Christianity is the majority religion, that is the code which I taught my daughter. Had we been living in Saudi, I would probably have taken her to mosque. I have in the past worshipped in mosques, synagogues and Hindu temples, as well as churches. How this is seen as hypocritical, I am at a loss to know. Presumably, those reproaching me in this way either do not believe that it is a good thing for children to be taught that we should treat strangers with kindness or that they are so perfectly able to do this all the time, they feel able to criticise others for failing to do so consistently. I can think of no other explanation.
The above comment is by the author of the Blog, which inexplicably will not allow him to post under his own identity!
ReplyDelete"Presumably, those reproaching me in this way either do not believe that it is a good thing for children to be taught that we should treat strangers with kindness or that they are so perfectly able to do this all the time, they feel able to criticise others for failing to do so consistently."
ReplyDeleteIf we had ever seen you following your own advice we might agree...
'If we had ever seen you following your own advice we might agree...'
ReplyDeleteBy which I induce it probable that you are one of those people who spends her time watching the behaviour of others to see when they fall short of perfection. Hang on a moment, I though I was supposed to be the self-righteous one here!
Simon.
"By which I induce it probable that you are one of those people who spends her time watching the behaviour of others to see when they fall short of perfection."
ReplyDeleteIt's not necessary to watch closely when it stands out a mile. I'm far from perfect, but I think I probably manage to follow my own advice more than not, i.e. more than 50% of the time.
"Hang on a moment, I though I was supposed to be the self-righteous one here!"
ReplyDeleteLOL, you obviously don't bother with the, 'turn the other cheek', bit from the bible. How do people who claim to follow the bible justify which bits they ignore and which bits they follow? Presumably it requires some kind of ability to tell the difference between the genuine word of God and misrepresentations where the bible contradicts itself.
'It's not necessary to watch closely when it stands out a mile. I'm far from perfect, but I think I probably manage to follow my own advice more than not, i.e. more than 50% of the time.'
ReplyDeleteYou have really got me confused now. 'Follow my own advice'. Forgive me, but I wasn't aware that I had been giving any advice to you or anybody else. What advice is it that you feel I have offered and then not followed myself? This is intriguing. And I think you do yourself an injustice when you say that you are not perfect. I am sure that nobody but a perfect person would be so concerned about the ethical system followed by a complete stranger. Your concern is notified and appreciated. For my own part, i have not the leisure for judging the shortcomings of others in this way, but it is good that there are people like you around to keep a benevolent eye upon the rest of us and point out when we are slacking!
Simon.
'LOL, you obviously don't bother with the, 'turn the other cheek', bit from the bible. How do people who claim to follow the bible justify which bits they ignore and which bits they follow?'
ReplyDeleteThis is from the New Testament and I think I explained that I was not a Christian. Nor did I claim to follow the Bible. However, I do not believe that anybody on earth follows all that is to be found in the Bible. The closest that I have come across are the Hassidim. They certainly manage to avoid mixing linen and wool, but even they draw the line at burning adulterers alive.
Simon.
"This is from the New Testament and I think I explained that I was not a Christian."
ReplyDeleteI didn't ask you this because I thought you were a Christian, but because you attend Church and may have picked up a few ideas about how Christians choose which bits to apply and which bits to ignore.
Whilst you haven't advised others to follow various bits from the bible, you do appear to be claiming that you home educated partly so that you can bring your child up based on passages from the bible when you said,
"The other motive was religious. I wanted my daughter to grow up learning about God and not to be over-influenced by the mores of today's society. I lived in Israel for years and am a Zionist who believes that the Bible contains a good deal of solid information regarding what the Lord requires from us. We must care for the feeble and sick, be loving and kind to strangers, protect the widow and orphan; stuff like that."
Forgive me for assuming that you would wish others to behave in the way you would like your daughter to behave. And also for assuming that you would wish to behave in the way you wish your daughter to behave.
Simon wrote,
"And I think you do yourself an injustice when you say that you are not perfect. I am sure that nobody but a perfect person would be so concerned about the ethical system followed by a complete stranger."
No more so than you who feel able to condemn the educational approach of hundreds of strangers as abusive.
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"For my own part, i have not the leisure for judging the shortcomings of others in this way, but it is good that there are people like you around to keep a benevolent eye upon the rest of us and point out when we are slacking!"
Oh, don't sell yourself short, Simon. You managed to condemn hundreds of strangers as abusers of children based on their approach to education!
Simon wrote,
ReplyDelete"For my own part, i have not the leisure for judging the shortcomings of others in this way, but it is good that there are people like you around to keep a benevolent eye upon the rest of us and point out when we are slacking!"
Most of your posts are judgemental about others. You seem to do quite a good job in this article when you say,
"The people who feel this way have generally not read the Bible, nor would they have one in their homes. They would be happy for their friends to see a copy of the Qu'ran or a book about Buddhism, but they would rather die than have anybody see a Bible laying around the place!"
Sounds pretty judgemental to me, and not a description I recognise from the responses you received to this or yesterday's article. I suggested that you are a hypocrite yesterday and we do happen to have a bible on our bookshelves, though not the Qu'ran or a book about Buddhism so I'm not sure which box you'd put us in.
Simon said "I believe that the Bible is inspired by God and contains a lot of good advice on how to live. I also believe this to be true of the Qu'ran and other scriptures. There are things in both the Bible and Qu'ran which I would not accept as being the way to live and so am neither a Christian nor a Muslim. I think that children should be raised with a moral code and since I live in England, where Christianity is the majority religion, that is the code which I taught my daughter. Had we been living in Saudi, I would probably have taken her to mosque. I have in the past worshipped in mosques, synagogues and Hindu temples, as well as churches. How this is seen as hypocritical, I am at a loss to know."
ReplyDeleteI didn't describe it as hypocritical, but as inconsistent. I can't see how you can believe a scripture to be inspired by God and to contain a moral code that you want your child to be taught, and but then not follow those principles yourself and feel that there is no inconsistency in your position.
I can understand why people pick and choose bits and pieces from different religions to guide their daily lives, but usually they don't talk about religious texts in the way you do.
What criteria do you use for the bits you follow and the bits you don't?
'I can't see how you can believe a scripture to be inspired by God and to contain a moral code that you want your child to be taught, and but then not follow those principles yourself and feel that there is no inconsistency in your position.
ReplyDeleteI can understand why people pick and choose bits and pieces from different religions to guide their daily lives, but usually they don't talk about religious texts in the way you do.
What criteria do you use for the bits you follow and the bits you don't? '
I have trouble sometimes deciding whether questions of this sort are meant seriously. The Bible was inspired by God, but written by men and women. This means that the Lord's message is not plain, but has in effect been meddled with; had bits added and other parts left out. The same is true of all scripture. Not everything in the Bible is God's idea. How does one decide which bits one will follow and which bits one will not? This is not really hard. If I read in Chapter 22 of Deuteronomy, verse 23, that if a man is caught having intercourse with a woman who is engaged to somebody else, then they must both be stoned to death, I do not think that this is consistent with the Divine nature as I understand it. Are we really to execute rape victims? On the other hand, in Chapter 24 of the same book, verse 17, we are urged not to deprive foreigners in our land of their rights and to take care of orphans. This sounds exactly what a loving God would advise and I am pretty sure that this is an accurate rendering of the Lord's wishes. Of course I may be wrong. It is possible that the Lord does want me to stone rape victims to death, but I am very dubious about this. Precisely the same principle can be applied to the Qu'ran. Humans are fallible and make mistakes, even when they are not muddling up the message which they have been given deliberately.
Simon.
So basically you recognise that something is right or wrong - you use your own moral judgement to decide what sounds right - God has not told you, either through the bible or in person. So why do you need religious texts in order to decide on the correct moral code for you? Couldn't you just devise your own moral code using your own judgement using much the same reasoning as you have done but without reference to texts written by unknown writers millennia ago?
ReplyDelete'Couldn't you just devise your own moral code using your own judgement using much the same reasoning as you have done but without reference to texts written by unknown writers millennia ago?'
ReplyDeleteOne could do that, but it would be pointless and could be dangerous. Pointless, because a lot of people who were on much better terms with God than me, have told us a lot about what they have learnt from the Deity. People a good deal cleverer than me have also thought far more deeply about ethics and morality than I ever have and I would be a fool to ignore what they have written. It would be a bit like trying to build a house and refusing to look at any books on the subject or listen to any advice from experienced builders. Why would you want to do that? It could be dangerous because sometimes when we just try to figure these things out by ourselves, we come up with really bad ideas. History is full of people who thought that God wanted them to burn heretics or kills Jews. In our own time, Peter Sutcliffe believed that God wanted him to hack up prostitutes with a screwdriver. Perhaps if he had studied scripture a little more and spoken to a priest or Imam, he would have realised that he was taking a wrong turn.
Ideally, we use scripture, prayer and reason together to work out what God requires of us. It also helps to belong to a faith community of people doing the same thing. We often decieve ourselves when devising our own morality and it is a good thing to have other people's take on our ideas.
Simon.
Exactly. History is full of dangerous mistakes made by people interpreting the bible in immoral ways and using the bible for their own immoral purposes to sway others. Why do you need other peoples ideas about what God wants (filtered through who knows how many fallible people) to tell you what is moral and not moral? Do you not know that it's wrong to kill without having to be told by someone in authority over you? Do you think it is impossible for someone to be moral without access to religious texts?
ReplyDeleteSimon said "consistent with the Divine nature as I understand it".
ReplyDeleteSo basically, you assess the rights and wrongs of a course of action using your own judgement informed by the opinions of others about what God has said. Not by looking at history to see what courses of action have had what outcomes?
I think I'm with Anonymous on this.
'So basically, you assess the rights and wrongs of a course of action using your own judgement informed by the opinions of others about what God has said. Not by looking at history to see what courses of action have had what outcomes?'
ReplyDeleteObviously, we do both. One person's own opinion of what is correct may well be flawed. If that person is in a position of power and authority, then the results may be catastrophic for others. Think about Torqumada or Hitler. Even for an individual, the consequences of wrong moral choices can be pretty bad. That is why it makes sense to take a sounding from what a lot of other people have thought and said about a possible course of action. Scripture is a good place to find what many people have thought about things and we can generally get a line of the Lord's view into the bargain. No scripture is infallible. It must be interpreted in the light of reason. I am not, incidentally, advocating for a moment that others should do this; merely explaining why I find it wise myself. The person who examines only his own conscience is very likely to fall into error as a lot of the time we trick ourselves and justify our wrong actions through sophistry.
Simon.
"It would be a bit like trying to build a house and refusing to look at any books on the subject or listen to any advice from experienced builders."
ReplyDeleteBut you believe the texts contain serious misinterpretations and errors, no? So maybe your position is a bit like using a book about housebuilding that contains some excellent guidance on how to tile the roof but the unfortunate advice that the joists are best made out of marshmallow...
Of course, you can pick your way carefully, weeding out any unlikely things about marshmallow joists. I know lots of people do that. Why they do it is a mystery to me but then I don't believe in God. If you do then I suppose it becomes urgent to figure out what it is he wants.
'a bit like using a book about housebuilding that contains some excellent guidance on how to tile the roof but the unfortunate advice that the joists are best made out of marshmallow...'
ReplyDeleteHa! Very sharp Allie, very sharp indeed.
Simon.