I have been spending a lot of time in Stamford Hill recently, an area of North London where I used to live. It is home to a very large orthodox Jewish community. The children of this group are pretty much cut off from ordinary life in twenty first century Britain. They watch no television, have no computers or games consoles, do not play in the park or hang out listening to pop music. Their homes contain few books other than those of a religious nature and they all dress like eighteenth century Poles and Lithuanians. Many do not attend school regularly, being taught in small, unregistered homes by other parents. Is this anybody's business but their parents? Most home educators would probably claim that it is not and I suppose that they would be right. And yet, many people are uneasy about such a closed community, cut off from the rest of society. Interestingly enough, this community generated one of the key cases of precedent upon which home educators now rely; R v Secretary of State for Education, ex parte Talmud Torah Mackzikei Hadass School Trust.
I know, because I have dealings with various professionals in the area, that the children of this community have incredibly high rates of stammering, bedwetting and developmental disorders. Occasional cases of child abuse surface and the person who reports them to the police then becomes a traitor to his own community. The last time this happened, a lynch mob gathered outside of the person who went to the police, chanting, 'Informer' in Yiddish. This is another problem; many of the children are not too good at English, despite the fact that their families have lived in this country for fifty or sixty years. They have little opportunity and sometimes not even the ability to disclose any problems to outsiders.
This is not of course an anti-Semitic diatribe, targeting the Jewish community! I lived in Israel myself for some years and my first wife was orthodox. Nor is this the only closed community of which I am aware. Some Christian sects are almost the same and will not readily deal with outsiders. Their loyalty is more to their church than to society in general and when a child is abused, there is a tendency to cover it up and avoid a scandal. We have seen this with the Catholic Church and it also happens with Jehovah's Witnesses.
What, if anything, should we do about this? Should separate communities of this sort be tolerated in a liberal democracy? Or should the state adopt a pro-active approach and insist that such people keep in touch with ordinary society and open up a bit; allow their children the same experiences in life as others? This could be a problem. Some parents deliberately wish to avoid their children growing up to be interested in nothing but pop music and so on. The moral codes of devout Catholics, Jews and Muslims seem to me to be vastly preferable to what passes for ethics and morality among many young people today in western society. I would be interested to know to what extent, in any, readers feel that such things should be the business of anybody but the members of the community themselves.
"I know, because I have dealings with various professionals in the area, that the children of this community have incredibly high rates of stammering, bedwetting and developmental disorders."
ReplyDeleteIsn't this a contradiction? They are so closed off that children would be unable to tell others of abuse yet professionals seem to know quite a lot about these children suggesting fairly frequent contact.
'Isn't this a contradiction? They are so closed off that children would be unable to tell others of abuse yet professionals seem to know quite a lot about these children suggesting fairly frequent contact.'
ReplyDeleteNo, not really. There are some speech therapists who do outreach work with this community. They pick up a lot of other information in the process. This is not a straightforward situation, because often these people do not like dealing with non-Jews. This means that black workers, for instance, do not get access to homes. In Hackney, this automatically precludes many health visitors and other workers. Even so, word about problems does get around. The attitude to disability is not alwatys as enlightened as one might wish. I heard from a midwife about a woman who gave birth to a kid with Down's and referred t it as a 'monster'.
"Even so, word about problems does get around."
ReplyDeleteExactly. I'm sure all the problems encountered in these populations are also found in the general population. You've only got to watch Jeremy Kyle a couple of times to see this. Or try listening to radio call in shows, like the one recently where a caller suggested that disabled children should be put down at birth to save the country money.
We contact professionals as necessary. This means that one of my children has probably been seen by professionals outside the family about 3 times in 15 years. Am I, and other similar home educators, that different to these groups in terms of contact with professionals?
For that matter, how many professionals outside the home did your daughter see over the years? You have previously mentioned 3 visits - 2 visits 18 months apart after you were discovered by a truancy patrol, and a third just before Simone reached school leaving age. Is your family that different from these groups with regard to contact with professionals outside the family?
you're informed by watching Jeremy Kyle?
ReplyDeleteIt's a thorny issue. I have to say that I remember reading about an incident in the Spry case where one of the children was taken to church wearing a sign that stated that she was wicked. I thought at the time that this would have triggered instant referral had it happened in a primary school. Indeed, I'd be straight on the phone to social services if a child ever appeared at a home ed group wearing such a thing!
ReplyDeleteNow I don't know if anyone did report that and it wasn't followed up. I don't know how much the people in the church were intimidated by Eunice Spry. But might the lack of action have been related to the fact that minority communities sometimes close ranks in the way Simon describes? Or might a pre-occupation with wickedness and punishment mask abuse? I don't know.
I have met JW home edders who were nothing but loving and caring to their children and I don't suggest for a minute that there is a widepsread problem in that, or any other, particular community. But I do think there are issues about closed communities and that children (and sometimes adult women to) can become trapped in a way that is hard to imagine if you have not been in such a situation. I don't know how best to address that. I suspect that bridge building (as much as is possible) between service providers and the community is the best way. I imagine that's pretty skilled work.
"you're informed by watching Jeremy Kyle?"
ReplyDeleteHow can you fail to be informed by Jeremy Kyle's show, as in, gaining new information about different groups of people? Unless, of course, you live with people like this all the time and know it all already?
And you believe that it's all true eh?
ReplyDeleteLiving life vicariously through your television.
"Living life vicariously through your television."
ReplyDeleteYou know nothing about my life apart from that I've watched a couple of episodes of Jeremy Kyle yet you feel qualified to judge my life and brand me a bigot. Hope your children are more open minded and have better research and reasoning skills than you do.
A couple?
ReplyDeleteSomehow, I doubt it, you sound more regular a viewer than that.
LOL, and you know everything and are all seeing, of course. You seem to be suffering from a God complex.
ReplyDeleteSee there you go again, ignorantly spouting off about something you woefully misunderstand.
ReplyDeleteLet's take what you've written so far..so many examples of what psychologists term 'splitting' or 'all or nothing thinking', that is your Central Defence Mechanism. You have repeatedly used 'splitting' to preserve your self esteem in a Blog comment debate that you're losing.
You're the one who is evidently suffering from a Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
There are several causes of NPD, that you as a 'home schooler' should really try to come to terms with.
Alternatively, put Jeremy Kyle on again.
I am not entirely sure what you are getting at Mr Webb? Are you implying that there is a higher prevalence of abuse and/or authoritarian parenting going on among the Jewish community? Or are you irate that the professionals are not given access to the children?
ReplyDeleteUbuntu
'I am not entirely sure what you are getting at Mr Webb? Are you implying that there is a higher prevalence of abuse and/or authoritarian parenting going on among the Jewish community? Or are you irate that the professionals are not given access to the children?'
ReplyDeleteNeither. I would very surprised if there is more abuse in this community than any other, but what abuse there is is less likely to come to the attention of the police and social services.
I have sort of mixed feelings about all this; on one hand I do believe that families should be the ones responsible for bringing up their children without the needs for monitoring from outside "do gooders" but it is also true that occasionally there are nasty abuse cases that come to light that make you think otherwise. When we were fostering I often came across families where I thought the whole need for social services may have been avoided a generation or two ago, when nearby family members may have taken a more active role. Yet perhaps this is completely false idealism- in the past "fallen" women, for example were shipped off to lunatic asylums instead.
ReplyDeleteSo I don't know- on the one hand many communities which may seem "odd" are mostly nurturing and protective of their members (and the offspring of such aren't out there dealing drugs, for example) although I am sometimes a bit worried about how restrictive some of the lives of both women and children from such communities. Abuse can never be tolerated - although again, communities like the polygamous breakaway Mormons in the US mostly seem to accept what I would consider a totally unacceptable way fo life for their young girls without recognsng it as abuse at all. No easy answers....
'Neither. I would very surprised if there is more abuse in this community than any other, but what abuse there is is less likely to come to the attention of the police and social services'
ReplyDeleteThen why write this piece pointing to the "shortcomings" of this community?
Following your line of thought though, the need of authorities to "ensure" anyone's safety can only be satisfied until they have permanent access to ones house...and there is me thinking 1984 was just fiction.
Ubuntu
'Then why write this piece pointing to the "shortcomings" of this community?'
ReplyDeleteI was musing in gneral about the nature of communities like this which are pretty much cut off from mainstream society. I find their lifestyle in general far preferable to most of modern society and few people choose to leave when they are adults. There is more good than bad to be found among the Hassidim and I was simply pointing out a downside, a downside to be found in many such communities.
And, where have your musings taken you so far?
ReplyDeleteUbuntu
'And, where have your musings taken you so far?'
ReplyDeleteTo the tentative conclusion that while rates of abuse in closed communities are no higher than elsewhere, this abuse may be less likely to come to light. Also, that some methods of raising children may be better than others, but that while being better in some ways, they may be worse in other respects. In the orthodox community, for example, children are extremely polite, industrious and well behaved. They tend to have a very strong moral code. On the other hand, there are probably higher rates of neurosis, manifested in things like stammering and bedwetting. No method of raising children is perfect and all have good points and bad. I dare say the same applies to home education and various sects within the broader movement, such as autonomous education.
Late onset Tay-Sachs is a condition which afflicts the Ashkinazi community. That would explain the higher prevalence of mental deterioration (including bedwetting, stammer and a number of serious psychiatric conditions) of youngsters among hasidic Jews.
ReplyDeleteNow that cleared up, which role should local authority play? After all, hasidic Jews are a close-knit community, but they still draw on resources such as the NHS. What responsibility has the individual hasidic Jew? And whatever your answer is, can you enforce it? Would it be morally and ethically justifiable?
Ubuntu
'Late onset Tay-Sachs is a condition which afflicts the Ashkinazi community. That would explain the higher prevalence of mental deterioration (including bedwetting, stammer and a number of serious psychiatric conditions) of youngsters among hasidic Jews.'
ReplyDeleteThis is perfectly true, but is not the whole story. These communities have been inbreeding for centuries and this creates all sorts of other problems. The Satmar people are all descended from some village in eastern europe and only marry people descended from that same place. Envrinment also plays a role in this. Obviously the way that children are raised affects their behaviour.
' which role should local authority play'
I have no idea whether they should play a role at all. As I said, there are many advantages to the lifestyle of this community and these may outweigh any disadvantages. I was simply thinking over separate communities of this sort and thinking of them vaguely in connection with home education. many of these kids are in fact home educated.
Ok, you are doubtful that authorities should play a role in the dealings with hasidic Jews. Are you also applying this to home educating their children? After all, hasidic Jews' teachings are highly religious. Can you and would you suggest that their teaching should be brought in line with the 21th century? Would you suggest someone who is not able to understand hasidic Jews' lifestyle enter their house to inspect their home education provisions? (I can see the worms wriggling in the can.)
ReplyDeleteI think you can only come to the same conclusions as the judge in the court case you mentioned above, which lent a cornerstone to this countries law on home education. Taking it a bit further, you have to treat all equal in front of the law. That means you cannot apply the law in one way to one group and another way to another group.
Ubuntu