Monday 4 October 2010

Autonomous education; a case study

Those who are sceptical about the benefits of autonomous education often read with raised eyebrows the accounts of children learning to read spontaneously and acquiring other skills without being taught. Still, it is usually impossible to prove or disprove such claims. Once in a while though, a case crops up where the evidence and records are so extensive that one can see exactly what has been going on and how a child has actually been learning. Usually, when one is able to examine the evidence in this way, a very different picture emerges from that which is first presented. We looked yesterday at an eight year-old boy called Christopher. The suggestion was made that he had been autonomously educated and I want to look at one particular aspect of his education, to see if we can gain some insight into what really happens when children pick up skills like reading and mathematics, supposedly without being taught them by an adult.

Let us consider reading. Some home educating parents, as well as one or two academics like Alan Thomas, believe that it is possible to learn to read simply from the experience of being surrounded by print in society. In other words, a child might acquire this skill without any explicit teaching from anybody. He might just 'pick it up', particularly when he found that it was necessary for some interest or other. This claim, that a child has learned to read without being taught, is not an uncommon one in the world of autonomous education. The child featured in the clip from a BBC programme yesterday apparently learned in this way. At the same time that this programme was broadcast, the family were featured in a local newspaper. Here is the article;

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Cambridge/Are-home-educated-children-better-off.htm


This contains the standard legend of the autonomous learning of reading. We read that;

'he didn't want to start learning to read until he was six, and has rejected the system of phonics which is used in many schools.'

'Kit was not forced to read, but instead started to pick it up when he realised it would be useful for him to learn about other things.'

I have asked a large number of people what they understood this to mean and without exception they said that they took it to mean that the child was not taught, but picked up reading at the age of six because he found he needed it for things which interested him. It is hard to see what other construction could be put upon the words used. So far, so good. A fairly typical sort of claim from an autonomously educating family. Sounds a bit fishy, but I suppose we'll just have to take their word for it! After all, we can't really know whether they taught him or not or if he just 'picked it up'.

Actually, this is where things get really intriguing. In this case, we are able to check up on how this child began to read. We can even listen to him learning to read! Let us begin when he is two years and four months old. Listen to this;

http://www.evilsusan.com/susan/Recording3.mp3


This recording was made on January 29th, 2004. We can hear Christopher's mother showing him a series of flashcards, some of which are pictures and others numbers. Five days later, on February 3rd, she is teaching him to read individual letters;

http://www.evilsusan.com/susan/kitalphabet.mp3


The mystery of the child who at the age of six seemingly 'started to pick it up when he realised it would be useful for him to learn about other things.' is now solved. Far from 'picking it up' at the age of six, he was taught to read by an adult at the age of two. In addition to this, he attended a playgroup where the children were taught to read in preparation for school. This is precisely as I suspected. In every single case of early reading like this which I have been able to investigate, the child concerned has been taught. This is exactly the sort of work with flashcards which I undertook with my own daughter. It is what some people call 'hothousing'.

The real mystery here is why some parents wish to teach their children systematically and then claim that their children have learned the skills without assistance. This is a matter of psychology and tomorrow I shall be looking at what prompts people to perpetuate these myths. If the type of thing which I have described above were rare, then it would hardly be worth drawing attention to, but it is not at all rare. Far from being an isolated case, the home educating parent who works hard to teach her child to read and then denies having done any such thing is actually a stock figure in the world of British home education; one encounters them frequently. These ideas can cause great harm to gullible parents who do not understand what is really involved in learning to read. We shall end by reading a very sad account by a mother who has swallowed such stories unhesitatingly and is waiting patiently for her children to teach themselves to read;

http://www.education-otherwise.org/HE/LS5.htm


Some parents like this have a very long wait, because they have been misled into thinking it likely that their children will somehow 'pick up' reading of their own accord.

It may seem to some unfair to focus on one family in this way, but I do not think so. The number of parents not sending their children to school is increasing and newspaper articles and television programmes like this are encouraging such parents to believe that their children can just 'pick up' reading without being taught. This is a dangerous idea and one which needs, for the children's sake, to be challenged.

59 comments:

  1. 'he didn't want to start learning to read until he was six, and has rejected the system of phonics which is used in many schools.'

    'Kit was not forced to read, but instead started to pick it up when he realised it would be useful for him to learn about other things.'

    I read this as meaning what it says. Kit didn't *want* to start reading when he was six, that he *rejected* the phonics system [implying that it had been tried] and was not *forced* to read.

    The impression I got is of a child who chose to learn to read at six. Not of one who somehow absorbed the ability to do so by osmosis. If that's how people interpret it, that's up to them. It's not up to Kit's parents to pick and choose their words carefully in case other people who haven't thought it through properly might misinterpret what they are saying.

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  2. 'The impression I got is of a child who chose to learn to read at six.'

    Precisely so, suzyg. No suggestion though of being taught systematically at two.

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  3. But no reason to believe he wasn't. My children were shown letters and numerals and told what they represented from a very early age. They are, as Alan Thomas pointed out, surrounded by the written word. What parent isn't going to say "a" or "b" or 'c-a-t, cat" when the kid points to a word or letter and says "Uh!"?

    I don't see why Kit's parents should have gone out of their way to make this explicit because of the way their comments might or might not be interpreted. They were making a point about his desire to read, not trying to provide a precise definition of autonomous education for the benefit of people like yourself or anyone else who might get hold of the wrong end of the stick.

    Incidentally I should correct a typo. I wrote 'when' meaning 'until' in my previous post.

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  4. I taught my own daughter to read in exactly this way with flashcards, starting when she was a bout six months old. If I understand you correctly suzyg, you seem to be saying that she was autonomously educated. This is heartening news indeed!

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  5. If anyone is interested in another story of the autonomous acquisition of literacy you can read something I wrote back in 2006 when our children were six and nine - it's here http://greenhousebythesea.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_archive.html

    I wasn't claiming - even then - that our input as parents and our home environment were unimportant. But we didn't teach in a structured way (what Simon likes to call efficient!) so it is another view. We certainly didn't do flashcards at two years old or in babyhood. I think I did buy some at some point but they never got much use and ended up being sold at a boot sale. As I often say - each to their own...

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  6. 'What parent isn't going to say "a" or "b" or 'c-a-t, cat" when the kid points to a word or letter and says "Uh!"?'

    This is true and would be an example of autonomous education. That's not at all what is happening here. In these teaching sessions, the child does not ask a single question. The mother as teacher is asking the questions, to all of which there is a right and wrong answer. Right answers are rewarded by the teacher saying 'Good work' in a pleased tone of voice. Wrong answers are corrected. In the jargon, the reward for the child is extrinsic, rooted in pleasing others rather than seeking information for his own satisfaction. When teachers ask questions such as, 'What does that say?' or 'What is the capital of France?' they are not asking because they wish to know, but in order to test their pupils. When children ask questions, it is generally because they wish to find something out. This is the difference between child-led and teacher-led education.

    The teaching sessions above are the very antithesis of autonomous learning. They are being conducted in order to instruct a two year old in reading and how anybody could see this as autonomous learning absolutely baffles me, suzyg. Do you really feel that the child has an intrinsic motivation for answering these questions? Does he ask a question? As I said above, the real mystery is why so many parents feel the need to claim, 'We're autonomous' and I shall be exploring that point tomorrow.

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  7. 'As I often say - each to their own...'

    I couldn't agree more and my own methods are not for everybody. What is happening here though is that it is being represented that a six year-old child simply 'picked up' reading. A parent reading that might be moved to keep her child at home rather than sending him to school. She might not realise that this child had actually been taught intensively from a very early age and be persuaded that if one leaves a child, he might learn to read by himself. This is a dangerous idea which I think needs to be examined.

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  8. 'something I wrote back in 2006 when our children were six and nine '

    That is very interesting indeed Allie, and tends to confirm what i have always thought. I was particularly interested to see about your reading while you were breastfeeding. I often gave my daughter a bottle while reading the paper and she used to stare at the black squiggles intently and then watch my face. She obviously knew that something was happening, but couldn't quite work out what! I am sure that this sort of early experience has everything to do with a child learning to read young.

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  9. Autonomous education does not preclude structured teaching or instruction.

    My daughter, at age 10, taught herself to read from her instrinsic motivation. She had shown no interest in reading at all before this age.

    It does happen and it isn't that dangerous an idea at all.

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  10. 'Autonomous education does not preclude structured teaching or instruction.'

    Nobody said that it did. I was however pointing out that a teacher asking questions and then rewarding correct answers by praising the child and correcting him when he makes mistakes is not really a good example of intrinsic motivation.

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  11. Motivation is complicated. Even what we identify as intrinic motivation must surely be influenced by other people - because the very essence of who we are is influenced by other people.

    I don't think that you can think of these things in absolute terms. What I have observed is that my children are pretty good at setting their own goals and applying themselves. For example, my daughter organised with a little local cafe to display some of her photographs there - got the prints and frames and so on and sold a few. My son wrote a novel over a few months. I think that the space that they have to follow their own interests means that they are better at this sort of thing than I was at their ages. Of course, we were happy with them doing these things and this must surely having influenced them.

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  12. Allie is absolutely right. A child can freely choose to wish to please an adult and this may well not stem from a sense of threat that the child may not get the parent's approval, but simply because some people like causing joy for others, or because a child is innately primed to please the adults around him. It would be wrong for the parent to fail to offer him the opportunity to do this if he wanted to as this would be coercive.

    I can perfectly conceive of the child in the recording freely choosing to do what he is doing. It sounds like a happy game, where he offers his own additional information spontaneously and joyously.

    The only defining factor of AE is that the person doing the learning is not coerced. This means that plenty of AE children will have plenty of help from their parents. I would doubt though, that many AE parents would delineate much of the information they offer as being "teaching", eg: when child asks in shop asks "What does that say" and parent says, "C...H...O...C spells choc...can you guess the rest of the word...", this was just something that happened, not a teaching opportunity!

    AE parents may also correct the child as long as the child does not find it coercive. This would be perfectly congruent with AE. Indeed, in this AE household, the criticism that flies about might be considered devastating in some environments, but generally speaking, in this context, is understood to be completely fine and uncoercive.

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  13. This is all excellent news! I thought that I had been hothousing my daughter and it turns out that all along I have been an autonomous educator. The teaching of reading and mathematics before her second birthday, the IGCSEs taken early, all this was apparently quite in keeping with autonomous education. It makes one wonder really how many children are not taught autonomously? Most school children go to school without complaint and just take it for granted. I suppose that they too are being autonomously educated. By this classification, I'm not sure where I would be able to lay hands on any child round here who was not being educated autonomously!

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  14. 'By this classification, I'm not sure where I would be able to lay hands on any child round here who was not being educated autonomously!'

    Certainly they'd be very rare in the HE community because to admit anything other than that is to risk being criticised and labelled, ridiculed and ostracised.

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  15. 'Certainly they'd be very rare in the HE community because to admit anything other than that is to risk being criticised and labelled, ridiculed and ostracised.'

    You have hit the nail bang on the head here, anonymous. This will be the very subject of my post tomorrow.

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  16. "Those who are sceptical about the benefits of autonomous education often read with raised eyebrows the accounts of children learning to read spontaneously and acquiring other skills without being taught."

    It would be more accurate to replace autonomous education with informal education here as this is the method that involves children learning to read spontaneously and acquiring other skills without systematically teaching. My children were educated autonomously but only one out of three learnt to read informally. The other two had at least some structured teaching at their own request (one only needed about 8 weeks of instruction, the other about 6 months). The one that learnt to read informally also received a form of structured teaching as they watched various BBC educational programmes along with others like Sesame Street. We also read to them every day and answered questions about what words said or how to spell them, etc, etc.

    "I have asked a large number of people what they understood this to mean and without exception they said that they took it to mean that the child was not taught, but picked up reading at the age of six because he found he needed it for things which interested him. It is hard to see what other construction could be put upon the words used. So far, so good. A fairly typical sort of claim from an autonomously educating family."

    Not at all. Autonomous education often includes structured teaching. I can't understand how you have failed to pick this up as you have been told so many times.

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  17. Simon wrote,
    "The mother as teacher is asking the questions, to all of which there is a right and wrong answer. Right answers are rewarded by the teacher saying 'Good work' in a pleased tone of voice. Wrong answers are corrected. In the jargon, the reward for the child is extrinsic, rooted in pleasing others rather than seeking information for his own satisfaction."

    It could also be pleasure because the child has achieved something the child asked the parent to help them achieve. The child is free to refuse to continue or end lessons at any point and this is what makes it autonomous. Of course a parent is going to pass on their values about various skills but, believe me, this doesn't automatically mean the child will want to learn them however much it would please said parent, as I know from experience. My children knew all along how much I valued reading because they saw me reading all the time. However, it was only when they saw a particular benefit for themselves that they decided to learn to read.

    "The teaching sessions above are the very antithesis of autonomous learning. "

    Only if you believe a child would never ask for them. If a child asked to be taught to read and the parent refused, they would not be autonomous educators. The child selects the method as well as the subject.

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  18. "Those who are sceptical about the benefits of autonomous education often read with raised eyebrows the accounts of children learning to read spontaneously and acquiring other skills without being taught."

    It would be more accurate to replace autonomous education with informal education here as this is the method that involves children learning to read spondaniously and acquiring other skills without sytematically teaching. My children were educated autonomously but only one out of three learnt to read informally. The other two had at least some structured teaching at their own request (one only needed about 8 weeks of intruction, the other about 6 months). The one that learnt to read informally also received a form of structured teaching as they watched various BBC educational programmes along with others like Sesame Street. We also read to them every day and answered questions about what words said or how to spell them, etc, etc.

    "I have asked a large number of people what they understood this to mean and without exception they said that they took it to mean that the child was not taught, but picked up reading at the age of six because he found he needed it for things which interested him. It is hard to see what other construction could be put upon the words used. So far, so good. A fairly typical sort of claim from an autonomously educating family."

    Not at all. Autonomous education often includes structured teaching. I can't understand how you have failed to pick this up as you have been told so many times.

    "Certainly they'd be very rare in the HE community because to admit anything other than that is to risk being criticised and labelled, ridiculed and ostracised. "

    It must depend on where you live then. I have lived in three areas and in each area AE was in the minority. The majority used a flexible mixture of parent-led and child-led education. A typical family might have an hour or two of lessons in the morning and child-led afternoons, for instance.

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  19. Simon wrote,
    "I thought that I had been hothousing my daughter and it turns out that all along I have been an autonomous educator. The teaching of reading and mathematics before her second birthday, the IGCSEs taken early, all this was apparently quite in keeping with autonomous education."

    If you daughter could refuse to do any of these, and they were given as suggestions that she then happily agreed that she would like to do, then yes, she was autonomously educated. Autonomous education doesn't mean that the child must, say, stumble across the idea of GCSEs themselves and ask you to help them do them. It's perfectly acceptable, in fact a requirement really, that parents give their children lots of information about what they can learn about and do such as archery, maths, history, swimming, reading, writing, mountain climbing, nature studies, exams for qualifications, etc. The parent must provide as much information and resources as possible for their child. For instance, was your daughter told that she could attend school if she wished? Mine were. If Simone could not choose school, or did not realise she could refuse to do GCSEs she was not autonomously educated in my view.

    "Most school children go to school without complaint and just take it for granted. I suppose that they too are being autonomously educated."

    Judging by the number who have said, "I wish I could be home educated", to either me or my children, I doubt that.

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  20. >>>"Certainly they'd be very rare in the HE community because to admit anything other than that is to risk being criticised and labelled, ridiculed and ostracised. "

    It must depend on where you live then. I have lived in three areas and in each area AE was in the minority.<<<

    Me too. It was the minority which did the criticising of the rest of us.

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  21. How can a minority ostracise the majority?

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  22. You must have been unlucky in your group(s). The AE minority got on well with the non-AE majority in the three areas (about 7 groups) I've lived in. I hate to say this but, many of my friends are non-AE. BTW, I hate to say this not because I don't like being friends with non-AE, but because we don't distinguish between the two in day-to-day life and it feels very strange to think of friends in this them-and-us light.

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  23. PS I should have said I sympathise with you and am sorry that you had such a negative experience with fellow home educators. Everyone finds the way that suits their family so they have no right to criticize your choices just because they are different. Discussion of different methods is fine but it sounds as though your experience amounted to bullying and bullying is always wrong. If non-coerciveness is good enough for their children it should be good enough for friends and acquaintances too.

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  24. "I thought that I had been hothousing my daughter and it turns out that all along I have been an autonomous educator."

    Could she have told you to go away whilst she played GTA when she was 5? Or chosen not learn to read until she was 12? Or generally not done any of the things you suggested and done her own thing entirely?

    If not, she probably wasn't AEd. Some essential pre-requisites of AE: the parent must not assume themselves in charge and must not have a preferred outcome for the child. The parent must also have the ability to be led by the child, to respect the child's preferences, and to seek genuine common preference with the child.

    A slow incremental ignoring of a child's wishes is nonetheless coercive. A drip feed of ignoring the child's pov and parent not moving to respect these choices can contribute to apparent compliance on the part of the child, and indeed, some learning can take place in such an environment, (with corners of coercion lurking left and right, up and down), but it is a much less efficacious way of learning and certainly isn't autonomous learning.

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  25. "but it is a much less efficacious way of learning and certainly isn't autonomous learning."

    I think so too but, as we are all fallible, we could be wrong, which is why I would mention my theories to people without rubbishing theirs.

    another anon.

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  26. 'Some essential pre-requisites of AE: the parent must not assume themselves in charge and must not have a preferred outcome for the child.'

    You seem to be saying that in the case above, the teaching of reading is not an example of autonomous education because the mother clearly has a preferred outcome for the child. She asks, 'What letter is this?' and if the child gives the wrong answer, he is corrected. So I suppose that this would not be an example of autonomous learning? This is what I said earlier, but some people seemed disposed to disagree with me.

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  27. Simon, you're talking out of your arse. You've managed to take a few snapshots and weave a story that fits your view of the world from them.

    First off, I don't think we'd decided to home educate when Kit was two, and I bet you'd find it tough to get a child of that age to engage with flash cards unless the child wanted to. He's always had a fascination with numbers and even in the swimming pool at a year old he'd make for the depth markers and point to them.

    By the time he was going to playgroup, he refused to take any input from us on how to sound out words. We'd try at intervals but he'd pull down the shutters and make it clear that he didn't want to so we didn't push. At playgroup he did not want to participate in the phonics at all, which is how we discovered his aversion to it. Even now when he asks about a word and we try to encourage him to sound it out he'll resist.

    He was indeed six when he decided that perhaps he needed to know how to read. He had some Wii games with text and he'd keep asking me to read it for him. After doing this for a while I started being 'busy', so he'd have to wait a minute or two before I came to assist. Yes we did help him, which is what an AE parent should do, but only when he was receptive - there's no point in forcing him to sit down with a book. He did get to a point where he was correctly reading words that I know that neither of us taught him, so he was obviously picking them up for himself from his environment.

    So yes, he did teach himself to read, and we provided assistance when he asked for it (with occasional delays as above). Now he's a proper bookworm.

    To me, autonomous education means letting the child choose, at which point the adults get to assist in what is needed. We do push occasionally because if he's expressed interest in a course we require him to agree to do a certain minimum number of lessons (usually what we have to pay for up-front) before he can stop. Some things he does exactly that, others he keeps doing. Some of what he stopped he later restarts, probably because he's assimilated the initial stuff and what was frustrating now makes sense. I suspect you'll find that is a common learning pattern.

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  28. A couple more things - Susan tells me that the flash cards were pictures only, there were no words on them, so not much of a reading lesson.

    Also, if a child makes a mistake, the proper thing to do is correct that mistake, otherwise the child will never learn that he was wrong. There are more and less appropriate ways of pointing out errors, depending on circumstances. Your definition of autonomous obviously differs from mine if you think that errors should go uncorrected.

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  29. Simon wrote,
    "This is true and would be an example of autonomous education. That's not at all what is happening here. In these teaching sessions, the child does not ask a single question."

    I heard a mother and child playing a game. They might just as well have been singing, reciting nursery rhymes, playing eye-spy or dancing, none of which involve asking questions (well, eye-spy sort of does, but not the kind of questions you meant). Does this make them teaching sessions?

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  30. "lso, if a child makes a mistake, the proper thing to do is correct that mistake, otherwise the child will never learn that he was wrong."

    Yes, it's much how we learn to speak. A parent will usually repeat a mispronounced word when a child is learning to speak. I've not heard any AE say that mistakes should not be corrected. How did you reach the conclusion that correcting mistakes in not part of AE Simon?

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  31. "I heard a mother and child playing a game. They might just as well have been singing, reciting nursery rhymes, playing eye-spy or dancing, none of which involve asking questions (well, eye-spy sort of does, but not the kind of questions you meant). Does this make them teaching sessions?"

    And besides which, if the child is happy to take part in teaching sessions, it's still AE. My child made if perfectly clear when they did not want to take part in this type of activity so I was as sure as I could be that when they were taking part it was because they wanted to.

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  32. "You seem to be saying that in the case above, the teaching of reading is not an example of autonomous education because the mother clearly has a preferred outcome for the child. She asks, 'What letter is this?' and if the child gives the wrong answer, he is corrected."

    Lol, Simon...assuming this question is asked in genuine ignorance, let me explain.

    We have no idea here if the mother really did have a preferred outcome. My guess is that she would have been perfectly happy had the child, for example, not listened to her, or had chosen to explore other theories, in which case, what she is doing is perfectly congruent with AE.

    What I think she was doing was offering tentative and to date best theories to the child. This is an almost essential part of AE, since most children actively seek good theories from their parents. A parent would be coercive to ignore this need.

    A child may also not be coerced by being offered a better theory than the one they offered. A correction is by no means necessarily coercive, though of course, it clearly can be!

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  33. 'A couple more things - Susan tells me that the flash cards were pictures only, there were no words on them, so not much of a reading lesson.'

    Pictures and numbers. Exactly the same method which I used. Once a child can read numbers, he is well on the way to being able to recognise words.

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  34. 'What I think she was doing was offering tentative and to date best theories to the child. '

    What she was doing was asking the child to identify pictures, numbers and letters and speak their names out loud. if the answer was correct, she responded with praise such as 'Good work', spoken in a bright, happy voice. If the answer was incorrect, she spoke in a neutral tone. There is no 'best ift' theory when learning to read in this way. Either the child correctly identifies the letter or number and recieves praise, or he fails to do so in which case he is corrected. There is nothing tentative in this process. It is teaching the child that there is a right answer and a wrong one. his job is to find the right answer. he is asking no questions of his own and only responding to those of the teacher.

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  35. Kit knew all of his numbers and most of his letters before he could speak. He would point and make questioning noises, and if we asked if he could find a particular number he'd point at it. Even in the swimming pool at six months old he would make for the depth markers and point at the numbers.

    And yes, swimming was one thing where he didn't get an initial say, because he started at seven weeks old. He had a break of a year after he turned two because he had developed a fear of water, but then picked it up again and now gets to swim four times a week, two of them with a local swim club. He's a better swimmer than I am.

    I'm quite happy to teach him the correct answer if he gets something wrong and he's happy to be taught so that next time he'll get it right.

    As I said, your definition of autonomous is different to mine - I'd guess I'm somewhere in the middle, your definition is somewhere out on the far fringe bordering on neglect and I think that's why you have such a hard time accepting that what most people call autonomous is nothing like you seem to think it is. By your reckoning, an AE would let a child put a hand on a cooker hotplate that would burn because the child needed to learn the hard way, whereas most of us are more practical than that and don't see it as violating any principles to actively prevent the child from discovering the hard way that it's not a good idea.

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  36. And if he can refuse to take part and do something else instead, it's AE.

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  37. Sorry, that should have included a quote:

    "It is teaching the child that there is a right answer and a wrong one. his job is to find the right answer. he is asking no questions of his own and only responding to those of the teacher."

    And if he can refuse to take part and do something else instead, it's AE. By taking part knowing that he does not have to he is taking part because he chooses to. I taught my child to read using a phonics course in much the same way. He asked me to teach him using that book. He also (usually) did not ask questions whilst we were working through the book. Why would this not count as AE?

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  38. Simon,
    autonomous education is about being child led. It is not about leaving your child to get everything wrong, and then watching them struggle. I really think you need to go back to the classroom and start again. My child did teach herself to read in that she used the resources around her (books, tv,computer, parents, shop signs etc.) and she sussed it out. She went from no reading to fluent reading in the course of a few weeks. If I had written a lesson plan to *make* that happen over those two weeks, it would never have happened. You probably were autonomously educating to a degree, in that you cannot make someone learn if they don't want to or haven't reached that stage yet. Your input might have hindered yet your child may have learnt anyway. How do you know she didn't do it in spite of your efforts?
    I think people always autonomously learn when they retain something that they want to. Rote learning with no meaning quite often is forgotten. I don't think you can teach reading if the child hasn't got it. They get it eventually, whether we are there or not. If one person on this planet has worked out something for themselves without formal instruction (see the hole in the wall experiment as an example), then we must acknowledge that autonomous education is possible. If it is possible then it exists. So why exactly are you trying to say it doesn't?

    If you want to join the ranks of autonomous learners, I'm sure you will be most welcome :)

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  39. 'autonomous education is about being child led. It is not about leaving your child to get everything wrong, and then watching them struggle.'

    I'm not sure who suggested such a thing!

    ' Rote learning with no meaning quite often is forgotten. '

    Nor do I know anybody in favour of this!

    ' I don't think you can teach reading if the child hasn't got it. They get it eventually, whether we are there or not. '

    Evidence needed for this assertion

    'If it is possible then it exists. So why exactly are you trying to say it doesn't?'

    Nobody in their senses would deny that autonomous learing is possible and takes place. The question to ask is is this as effective as more traditional educational methods and has it any disadvantages which conventional teaching lacks?

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  40. "'Rote learning with no meaning quite often is forgotten.'

    Nor do I know anybody in favour of this!"

    I've used it myself as part of my own education. Sometimes it's the best way to learn a long list of chemicals and their structures, the times tables or the months of the year, for instance. I've autonomously chosen to learn all of these and more by rote.

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  41. "Nobody in their senses would deny that autonomous learing is possible and takes place. The question to ask is is this as effective as more traditional educational methods and has it any disadvantages which conventional teaching lacks?"

    Have you never found that learning something by your own choice has resulted in a deeper and more thorough understanding of the subject matter than something you are not particularly interested in but are told by someone else you must learn?

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  42. 'Have you never found that learning something by your own choice has resulted in a deeper and more thorough understanding of the subject matter than something you are not particularly interested in but are told by someone else you must learn?'

    Of course I have found this. I have also found the opposite case, when external factors were more powerful incentives. The question is not whether it can be the case; that is beyond doubt.

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  43. I've never found the opposite to be true. Maybe that's the difference between AE and parent-led educators? Their own experiences of learning coupled with seeing their children thriving and learning. I'm sure you would have changed your approach if you could see that Simone did not respond well to parent-led education, just as I would have done for my children.

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  44. "I've never found the opposite to be true."

    Though I suppose it depends on what you class as external factors. I would count studying a course for a qualification required for a job I want as autonomous even if I were not that interested in some of the material. I am studying by my own choice for my own ends. Maybe you would count this as an external factor and not count the learning as autonomous? I consider learning something that someone with power over you (like a parent or teacher) decides you must learn. I don't count employers as we can always resign if push comes to shove. We are working by our own choice for things that we want. If we didn't want the things that money can buy and the self respect gained from paying our way we could, ultimately, live off the state. A child (or a prisoner maybe) does not have the same choices.

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  45. "I consider learning something that someone with power over you (like a parent or teacher) decides you must learn."

    Didn't finish that sentence:

    I consider learning something that someone with power over you (like a parent or teacher) decides you must learn as externally imposed and non-autonomous.

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  46. Simon says:
    "Nobody in their senses would deny that autonomous learing is possible and takes place. The question to ask is is this as effective as more traditional educational methods and has it any disadvantages which conventional teaching lacks?"

    Is this the question to ask? Surely the question to ask is: if it is a method of learning which is possible and takes place, then what business is it of yours to tell other parents that they should not use it or governments to disregard it? At what point have you taken your crusade too far, and have intruded into the lives of others too much?
    I do not tell you how to educate your child Simon, so do not tell me how to educate mine.

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  47. 'At what point have you taken your crusade too far, and have intruded into the lives of others too much?
    I do not tell you how to educate your child Simon, so do not tell me how to educate mine.'

    Crusade? A little blog like this? Please keep a sense of perspective, Anonymous? I am not telling you at all how to educate your child. Somebody was suggesting that autonomous learning was more effective than that motivated by external factors and I was examining this proposition. Try not to take things so personally.

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  48. 'and have intruded into the lives of others too much? '

    How on earth am I intruding intruding into the lives of others? I am not forcing anybody to come onto my blog and read my views. If people wish to read my opinions, they will come here eand do so; if they do not wish to then they will stay away. If I look at somebody's blog, I can hardly accuse them of intruding into my life!

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  49. Simon wrote:
    "Somebody was suggesting that autonomous learning was more effective than that motivated by external factors and I was examining this proposition."

    Actually, I would put it to you that autonomous education draws a lot from external factors. A child sees something he wants and is prepared to put in the work to achieve it. If it's not something he wants then he doesn't bother. As a parent I see it as my job to provide lots of these external factors. Some are seized upon, others are tried and dropped and some are just ignored from the start.

    You seem to think that autonomously-educated children exist in a void where they have to discover and initiate everything. It's not like that at all.

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  50. "I am not telling you at all how to educate your child."

    Saying in national papers and to MPs in various consultations that AE is harmful and neglectful and should be stopped isn't telling me how to educate my child?

    Another anon.

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  51. 'Saying in national papers and to MPs in various consultations that AE is harmful and neglectful and should be stopped isn't telling me how to educate my child?'

    No, I'm afraid it's called democracy. I am free to express my view about education and other matters and you also have that freedom. Do you suppose it would be better if one of us lost this freedom? If so, which of us should it be?

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  52. Of course, and I would support your right to do so, just as I have the right to disagree with you. But you cannot then honestly say that you are not telling other people how to educate their children. Many people tell others how they should educate their children. I'm not sure why you felt the need to deny it.

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  53. Mind you, only a minority go out of their way to campaign to end a particular method of education. Most people just push their own version as 'the best'. I think this is what makes you stand out amongst home educators as different. I don't know any others who argue for the ending of a particular style of HE.

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  54. 'Mind you, only a minority go out of their way to campaign to end a particular method of education.'

    I must be getting old, because I certainly don't recollect doing this! Unless you are suggesting that anybody in favour of the registration of home educating parents and an eye being kept upon their children's educational attainment falls into this category.

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  55. When you say that something is causing incalculable damage to thousands of home educated children, it certainly gives the impression that you want to end it. You are also in favour of measures that would make AE impossible and have written repeatedly to MPs in support of those measures.

    Not sure where educational attainment fits in either, the law requires provision of a suitable education. A suitable education is provided in schools (according to LAs) and many children there do not attain very highly (and allowances must be made for individual differences). If low attaining HE children should be sent to school despite provision of a suitable education, maybe low attaining school children should have to HE?

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  56. 'and have written repeatedly to MPs in support of those measures.'

    This is news to me! I sent a submission to the select committee, but that was all. Are you sure that you are not muddling me up with some of those people like Tania Berlow and the Staffords who made multiple submissions? I am in favour of home educators registering with their local authority. Many do this already and still manage to continue providing an education.

    '
    If low attaining HE children should be sent to school'

    Why on earth should they be? It would make more sense for the parents of such children to be helped to improve their education, rather than send them to school. I am not a great fan of schools.

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  57. Why? If the education is suitable, it's entirely possible that this is the level the child would attain whoever provided the education and whatever advice was given. Changing the education provision may even reduce their future attainment. The point is, it's the education provision that should be evaluated, not the child's attainment.

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  58. "This is news to me! I sent a submission to the select committee, but that was all."

    Didn't you contribute to the Badman review in writing and in person? And what about the consultation on the proposed changes? Didn't you send a response to that? Both of these were indirect submissions to MPs as both were commissioned by them and the results read by MPs.

    "I am in favour of home educators registering with their local authority. Many do this already and still manage to continue providing an education."

    Many AE are known to their LA and manage to educate autonomously without any problems under the current system (myself included, I choose to have visits). However, AE would not be have been possible under the system you support.

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  59. Most home educators that adopt an autonomous style of learning do not think that you just leave your kids to it. That’s not what autonomous means - it means self directed or self regulated with the adults role being to facilitate the learning. eg http://www.unschoolcalling.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/automous-self-regulated-learning-how.html and http://www.unschoolcalling.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/example-of-automous-self-directed.html

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